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This was touched on briefly in another thread but I thought it was worth a thread of it's own. Overall I like the new shapechange spells and I am more likely to use these than I was to use Polymorph. However if you look at the number of new spells that make up the polymorph set it really makes it tough for a sorcerer to be a good shape shifter.
Looking at a breakdown of Polymorph spells by level you have:
2nd - Alter Self
3rd - Beast Shape I
4th - Beast Shape II, Elemental Body I
5th - Beast Shape III, Elemental Body II, Plant Shape I, Polymorph Other I
6th - Beast Shape IV, Elemental Body III, Plant Shape II, Polymorph Other II, Form of the Dragon I
7th - Elemental Body IV, Plant Shape III, Form of the Dragon I, Giant Form I
...
Holy cow, that's a lot of spells and a sorcerer knows only 1 or 2 spells from his most powerful level. So a 10th level sorcerer who wanted to do a good bit of shifting would dedicated all of his most powerful slots to polymorph spells and still would only have 4 polymorph spells and only type of the most powerful forms.
Overall I like the fix balance wise but I think it punishes the sorcerer out of proportion with the other classes. Wizards can have every version of this spell in their spellbook and a 10th level druid has access to all the forms up to Elemental III, Beast III, and Plant II 4 times per day for hours/ level.
I know there is no precedence in the existing rules for it but I think would make a lot more sense in this case for the Sorcerer to only have to learn a spell chain once and inherit the rest of the chain. So a sorcerer would learn Beast Shape I then gain Beast Shape II and III as he levels up. by 10th level he would then have access to Beast Shape I-III, Elemental Body I-II, and Plant Shape I, saving him 3 spells known slots which could be used to add a bit of flexibility to the caster.
For the wizard this makes very little difference in total power because adding additional spells is a low cost proposition in any case. The druid and the cleric are not affected.
-- Dennis
Can't do that though, man.
Think about it. You want to be a shape-changing sorcerer and that is awesome, but if you "inherit" spell chains like that, then as far as total spells known, you're shafting sorcerers that don't want that "set." (I do agree with you that this would in play not be so, since the II,III,IV,etc really just improve on really one spell. So each one is more like adding a 1/3 worth of a spell's power.)The technicalities define this game and are use to "break" it.
It would also kinda obligate sorcerers to take that just one Beast Shape spell, even if they weren't really into it, because it would give, technically, a net gain in spells known. It could be one of those subtle things that encourages a player's urge to power game.
I do think you have a good idea, though. It really bones sorcerers to want to be shape-changers under this set of spells.
Hmm. Conundrum.
Wait till the other shapechange spells are added for other creature types.
Personally, I'm all for how the current spells are structured. With the old system, I felt it was more broken being able to turn into everything you could think of under the sky. Now, you have to make a choice as to which creature type you want to learn, thus defining your 'field of expertise".
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Can't do that though, man.
Think about it. You want to be a shape-changing sorcerer and that is awesome, but if you "inherit" spell chains like that, then as far as total spells known, you're shafting sorcerers that don't want that "set." (I do agree with you that this would in play not be so, since the II,III,IV,etc really just improve on really one spell. So each one is more like adding a 1/3 worth of a spell's power.)The technicalities define this game and are use to "break" it.
How can you shaft someone for not taking a spell? They all have the option, if they think it's worthwhile then any of them can take it. How out of balance can it be considering in order to reach parity with the current system the sorcerer would still have to take 5+ spells known of levels 3-7 versus one spell known of level 4 in the SRD?
It would also kinda obligate sorcerers to take that just one Beast Shape spell, even if they weren't really into it, because it would give, technically, a net gain in spells known. It could be one of those subtle things that encourages a player's urge to power game.
Well if they feel compelled then go for it. Even as a rolled up meta-spell Beast Shape or Elemental Body are far from being overly powerful. Consider for a minute that all direct damage spells scale. Does that make them broken? Does everyone take all of the scaling direct damage spells because their power increases as they level up? In this case the spells would scale but they would simply burn a higher level slot.
I do think you have a good idea, though. It really bones sorcerers to want to be shape-changers under this set of spells.
Hmm. Conundrum.
Indeed.
If this were psionics the solution would be simple.
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Wait till the other shapechange spells are added for other creature types.
Personally, I'm all for how the current spells are structured. With the old system, I felt it was more broken being able to turn into everything you could think of under the sky. Now, you have to make a choice as to which creature type you want to learn, thus defining your 'field of expertise".
Sure, but even under the system I proposed above there is still a heavy tax on spells known to be a versatile shifter.
I've been thinking about it and I do see one significant problem with my suggestion, it allows you to use a 3rd level spell known to cast 6th level spells, that is kind of bad I think. Hmmm
Here is an completely alternate direction. Perhaps a shifter bloodline that has a bloodline spell list with many of the shifter spells in it. This assumes that bloodline spell lists will happen which might or might not be the case.
-- Dennis
This helps solve the problem: My Polymorph Solution
Yes, it is a shamelss plug, but true.
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Your proposal is simply to take the existing spells and roll each chain of spells into a single spell that scales with caster level. The idea has it's appeal and it would resolve the issue with the sorcerer and polymorph. I don't think it will be adopted though, and in particular I think you would have to raise the level of many of the spells because it is too much power for the level of spell.
In particular Alter Self quickly becomes broken, totally eclipsing other spells such as bulls strength, enlarge person, heck even higher level spells like fly. Tons of bonuses from a 2nd level spell, plus you can still cast. Alter self as it's in the PRPG is fine and doesn't need a power bump like this.
Other spells in your list have similar issues as they scale.
Beast Shape, a third level spell that gives you flight, burrowing, or waterbreathing/ swimming, that is worth a third level spell right there, a lot of flexibility in a neat package. Adding scaling features... is overkill.
-- Dennis
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Your proposal is simply to take the existing spells and roll each chain of spells into a single spell that scales with caster level. The idea has it's appeal and it would resolve the issue with the sorcerer and polymorph. I don't think it will be adopted though, and in particular I think you would have to raise the level of many of the spells because it is too much power for the level of spell.
In particular Alter Self quickly becomes broken, totally eclipsing other spells such as bulls strength, enlarge person, heck even higher level spells like fly. Tons of bonuses from a 2nd level spell, plus you can still cast. Alter self as it's in the PRPG is fine and doesn't need a power bump like this.
Other spells in your list have similar issues as they scale.
Beast Shape, a third level spell that gives you flight, burrowing, or waterbreathing/ swimming, that is worth a third level spell right there, a lot of flexibility in a neat package. Adding scaling features... is overkill.
-- Dennis
Agreed.
But as to the sorcerers tax, isn't he allowed to relearn spells every couple of levels though, couldn't he dump his lower level shifting spells for utility spells in this instance, or is it not often enough to counter the # of shifting spells? I mean if I were a shifter sorcerer as soon as I got BS2 I'd be looking to dump the original unless i needed the more daily uses
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But as to the sorcerers tax, isn't he allowed to relearn spells every couple of levels though, couldn't he dump his lower level shifting spells for utility spells in this instance, or is it not often enough to counter the # of shifting spells? I mean if I were a shifter sorcerer as soon as I got BS2 I'd be looking to dump the original unless i needed the more daily uses
Well you can exchange spells at every even level so he change out his lower level spells but he would still burn a 4th level spell. Maybe that is a better solution.
Sorcerers who know a higher level version of a spell could choose to downgrade the spell, burning a lower level slot for the same effect. Perhaps something at the end of the Beastshape II spell:
Special: Spontaneous casters who know Beastshape II can choose to burn a spell slot one lower to cast Beastshape I instead.
So a sorcerer at 6th level would learn Beast Shape I then when he reaches 8th level he could swap out Beast Shape I for another spell and learn Beast Shape II but still burn 3rd level spell slots to cast Beast Shape I.
Well you can exchange spells at every even level so he change out his lower level spells but he would still burn a 4th level spell. Maybe that is a better solution.
Sorcerers who know a higher level version of a spell could choose to downgrade the spell, burning a lower level slot for the same effect. Perhaps something at the end of the Beastshape II spell:
Special: Spontaneous casters who know Beastshape II can choose to burn a spell slot one lower to cast Beastshape I instead.
So a sorcerer at 6th level would learn Beast Shape I then when he reaches 8th level he could swap out Beast Shape I for another spell and learn Beast Shape II but still burn 3rd level spell slots to cast Beast Shape I.
There's no reason to do that; read the descriptions. The higher-leel versions can do anything the lower level ones can, and more.
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There's no reason to do that; read the descriptions. The higher-leel versions can do anything the lower level ones can, and more.
What I suggest is that the higher level spells in the chain spells allow you to burn a lower level spell slot as if you knew the lower level version of the spell. For example, if Beast Shape II is in your spells known you could cast Beast Shape I, burning a third level spell slot, even if it was not otherwise in your list of spells known. Similarly you could use your knowledge of Plant Shape II to cast Plant Shape I but not any of the Beast Shape spells.
-- Dennis
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There's no reason to do that; read the descriptions. The higher-leel versions can do anything the lower level ones can, and more.What I suggest is that the higher level spells in the chain spells allow you to burn a lower level spell slot as if you knew the lower level version of the spell. For example, if Beast Shape II is in your spells known you could cast Beast Shape I, burning a third level spell slot, even if it was not otherwise in your list of spells known. Similarly you could use your knowledge of Plant Shape II to cast Plant Shape I but not any of the Beast Shape spells.
-- Dennis
I don't think that's fair though, it's basically saying, hey ignore the class limitations. If the player wants the ability to use a lower level spell slot on shifting they should need to keep the lower level spell, that's just the sorcerers place, otherwise you'll have people wanting to do this with any "Greater/Lesser" spell series. The form spells lasts minutes per level so it's not like they need the spell slots to make it through combat shifted, so I honestly think you are arguing for something that is uneccesary, I could see if the duration were one round. but not on a spell that lasts through combat unless you're shifting to something new every other round.
Maybe polymorph should not be restricted by creature type but per ECL.
Summon monster, natures ally and all those are working like that too!
From I to IX. Why not making polymorph the same?
I don't think that's fair though, it's basically saying, hey ignore the class limitations. If the player wants the ability to use a lower level spell slot on shifting they should need to keep the lower level spell, that's just the sorcerers place, otherwise you'll have people wanting to do this with any "Greater/Lesser" spell series.
I agree with the quote above (except I'm agnostic about whether it's "fair" or not). A sorcerer who takes Fireball doesn't get Delayed Blast Fireball for free. If he takes Lightning Bolt, he doesn't get Chain Lightning for free. If he takes Fly, he doesn't get Overland Flight for free. If he takes Charm Person, he doesn't get Charm Monster for free. But that doesn't mean that you can't create a sorcerer who uses fire, lightning, flight or charm spells.
Instead of thinking "OMG! They broke Polymorph into a million spells!", think of it this way:
(a) The 4th-level spell "Polymorph" is now the 5th-level spell "Polymorph Other I" and has been nerfed a fair bit. Alter Self and Shapechange have been nerfed a bunch, too.
(b) They created a bunch of other, lesser versions of Polymorph and Shapechange.
So it's not so much that an option has been stolen from the sorcerer, it's that some options have been added that benefit the wizard more than the sorcerer (but that's pretty much true whenever a new spell is added to the game).
If I really thought this was a problem, the easiest solution would be to remove all of the [Something] Shape I-IV spells, leaving just Alter Self, Polymorph Other I, Polymorph Other II and Shapechange.
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I agree with the quote above (except I'm agnostic about whether it's "fair" or not). A sorcerer who takes Fireball doesn't get Delayed Blast Fireball for free.
No he does not get delayed blast fireball, however fireball does scale with level as did the original spell (Poly Other does not).
I feel that my second solution (Sorcerers who know BS II can cast BS I) is nice, elegant, and fixes the issue rather well and does no harm.
However, after sleeping on it and thinking about it a bit I've come to think that
1) It's a corner issue for a few special cases
2) As you've pointed out it's really not that horrid as is
As such I'm gonna let it drop and will likely house rule it because sometimes house ruling stuff is the right way to handle things rather than using a crowbar to alter the ruleset.
-- Dennis
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I had put a post in the suggestions forum (which got no traction :( ) about this and my solution is to have all spell chains that use a numeric designator in their names (so beast shape I, II, II, Summon Monster I-IX, etc) remain separate spells, but if you take one in the change you automatically get the rest as you level up, for free - so that they won't count for as one of a wizard's 2 free spells in their book each level, nor as a sorcerer spell known.
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I had put a post in the suggestions forum (which got no traction :( ) about this and my solution is to have all spell chains that use a numeric designator in their names (so beast shape I, II, II, Summon Monster I-IX, etc) remain separate spells, but if you take one in the change you automatically get the rest as you level up, for free - so that they won't count for as one of a wizard's 2 free spells in their book each level, nor as a sorcerer spell known.
That was my first thought as well but as I realized above that learning beastshape I, a third level spell gives you access to a 6th level spell in your "Spells Known". No one would ever learn Beast Shape IV because they could simply take the lower level version. If you were to change it you should make the higher level spells grant access to the lower not the reverse.
-- Dennis
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See, I'm actually a huge fan of limiting polymorph. You used to have one spell that was useful in every single conceivable situation except an antimagic shell. The diversity of spells required to be able to shapeshift into anything your little heart desires reflects the fact that the ability to shapeshift into anything your little heart desires allows you to do anything your little heart desires.
Frankly, the enormous scope of possible effects of polymorph demands the spell be split into a particularly large number of smaller spells.
First, consider that what I was talking about still required taking 3-4 different spells for each alternate form. Second, even if a sorcerer learned every Beast *, Plant *, Elemental * spell in the game the sorcerer is still going to be lagging behind the druid in shape shifting abilities. Druids don't have access to the Dragon * and Giant * shifting but they do have Natural Spell and can cast while shifted.
-- Dennis
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This cites as a problem the same basic concept as if one was to build a sorcerer as being a "summoner". With a different Summon Monster spell every level, that caused a similar "shortage" for their spell selection to follow their concept, correct?
Such is the limitations of the sorcerer; they aren't intended to be versatile. Perhaps one can select the odd-numbered spells (Beast Shape I, III, V, etc). Or simply do the swap-out of a lower-level spell at the levels that they can change their spells-known.
Another potential route is having a Bloodline power. There was talk on another thread about the bloodlines perhaps also including bonus spells known, like the Bloodline feats currently do. Have a shapeshifting bloodline which provides you with bonus polymorph spells, and away you go.
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Maybe polymorph should not be restricted by creature type but per ECL.
Summon monster, natures ally and all those are working like that too!
From I to IX. Why not making polymorph the same?
SNA, SM are not based strictly on ECL, they are fixed lists of options which makes the power level of the spells fairly controlled. If the Poly spells were similarly tied to a fixed number of alternate forms then much of the abuses of the spell would be reigned in.
-- Dennis
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Another potential route is having a Bloodline power. There was talk on another thread about the bloodlines perhaps also including bonus spells known, like the Bloodline feats currently do. Have a shapeshifting bloodline which provides you with bonus polymorph spells, and away you go.
This is my favorite option. Also having a bloodline option that provides summoning spells would be good.
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Another potential route is having a Bloodline power. There was talk on another thread about the bloodlines perhaps also including bonus spells known, like the Bloodline feats currently do. Have a shapeshifting bloodline which provides you with bonus polymorph spells, and away you go.This is my favorite option. Also having a bloodline option that provides summoning spells would be good.
I like it as well, it also gives the possibility that there could be some bloodline powers that are related to shape changing. It will likely not be included in Alpha 3 but I can see the bloodlines as being a great way to make themed sorcerers really shine in their core competencies.
-- Dennis
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You're correct the sorcerers are intended to be mainly one trick ponies, you want a verastile caster who can change his role, you play a wizard. That was true in 3.5.
As for the bloodline option that's way too much in comparison with the other bloodlines, a better option would be a themed bloodline or set of bloodlines that would allow a limited variety of shapes, i.e. catlike, demonlike, etc.
I'm all for a balance of power, while I like the idea of having a polymorph based bloodline it's power would have to be in line with the rest of the bloodlines. I'd have to see what the bloodlines look like in alpha 3 or maybe the beta then build it from there.
Though I think a Poly bloodline would be better than some of the other options I find it unlikely at this point it would be included. On the other hand I have a feeling the bloodline rules are going to be such that it will be fairly easy to make a new bloodline for my games.
-- Dennis
There is always the default that Sorcerers can learn other "unusual" spells.
Defintely a good reason to allow Sorcerers to continue to learn the standard PHB/SRD Alter Self and Polymorph spells in PF since there seems to be great resistance to them getting to have more known spells.
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Good. The Druid is the better shapechanger and should remain that way. The Shapechanger prestige class should grant them Dragon* and Giant*, and then they are the master shapechangers. Sorcerers should never be able to catch up to them - indeed, no character class should be able to catch up to them. One of the primary reasons you play a Druid is for shapechanging, and nothing should exceed them on the one truly neat advantage they get. The only other real power they have is the ability to summon badgers, for crying out loud.
Interesting perspective. In any case, it's not an issue. Is the sorcerer better at shifting in the 3.5SRD? I don't believe so, and since the new Poly spells are collectively less powerful than the old ones it's impossible for the changes I suggest to somehow make the sorcerer better than the druid.
Consider, the druid can stay shifted all day long and toss spells while shifted. The Sorcerer gets 1 min/ level and can only cast in a few shapes. The Sorcerer will be taxed 1 round of every combat shifting into a shape while the druid would only have to waste a round if he decides to alter his shape for a specific situation. The druid has (level/2)-1 shifts per day at his highest available form while the sorcerer only gets 3-4 shifts/ day to his highest available form. Druids also have a ton of buffing spells they can use while shifted that they share with their animal companion... Druids have nothing to worry about.
-- Dennis
