I have noticed that there are a few very outspoken people that are frequenting discussions, and instead of helping are attacking people and acting really juvenile.
Can the mod's please monitor this more as some threads are really just devolving into one person calling another a tool and other annoying thread jacks.
Or at least is there some place to report these situations?
I'm often guilty of being outspoken, but I hope not to a fault. So take this with a grain (or a shaker) of salt:
The best bet would seem to be to ignore them and let them die down, or, even better, to post on-topic around the flaming. Lead by example, so to speak.
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I agree with Kirth here. There has been some discussion elsewhere about whether we have a need for mods, because thus far Paizo's stance has been that if tensions die down fairly quickly on their own that they prefer to allow discussion to continue freely without instituting some sort of official response against it.
These boards have always been home to very mature conversations and an effective community, much preferable to a lot of boards I have been on where moderation is enforced(and often abused). I really appreciate Paizo showing us this faith, and even with the sudden influx of new people that have come with the announcement of PFRPG, I think we can maintain our civility.
As Kirth said, if we maintain on topic and ignore the trolls, and show all the newcomers what a good spot this is, the trolls will either eventually join into the community as active members or move on where there is better sport.
-Tarlane
Thanks, Paizo, whether or not I'm considered a troll. Definitely outspoken sometimes.
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I'm often guilty of being outspoken, but I hope not to a fault. So take this with a grain (or a shaker) of salt:
The best bet would seem to be to ignore them and let them die down, or, even better, to post on-topic around the flaming. Lead by example, so to speak.
The problem with that is that sooner or later, everybody gets in on it.
Check out Topix.com political threads.
*Say something opinion-wise. (liberal, conservative, moderate, it makes no difference).
*Wait 5-20 minutes.
*Somebody named "All Conservatives Lie," or "Liberals are Liars," or "Moderates are all Buttsniffers" will show up and tell you about your ancestors.
Sooner or later, it's just a drekfest. Nothing makes any sense any more.
That's why everybody doesn't do it here. It turns the whole place into a s&@~fling factory.
My 2c.
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Sooner or later, it's just a drekfest. Nothing makes any sense any more.
Welcome to Teh Intartubez. It's been this way pretty much since they created USENET over UUCP. There is no fix, the only thing we can do is (a) lead by example and (b) don't feed the trolls.
I have found that they like peanut butter, though. ;-)
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Well, I've been here for 3 years, and it's a nice little community.
This is my Tanelorn. It would be nice to keep it that way. In fact, I'll venture to say that it WILL be so.
And yet strangely, the trolling activity also picked up about 3 years ago...
Oh wait, I became a regular around that time too. Hmmm....
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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There's degrees of trolling dude. A fart is one thing, a spewfest another thing entirely.
ew.
Edit: Wow, taking a look at the threads, things have gotten particularly nasty. Maybe even 4e nasty. It looks like part of the problem is that there is a block of posters from another set of forums that are more or less tag-teaming. Any time one of them takes a hit, 2-3 others pop in and defend that person. Dirty pool.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Why are you breaking my balls?
Because they regenerate if I don't use silver and it's fun to see you suffer pain.
Edit: In all seriousness, I agree with you Heathy, things have gotten off the rails. It's good to see that some posters are taking the high road and ignoring the trolls. Hopefully that will resolve the problem without moderator intervention.
I have noticed that there are a few very outspoken people that are frequenting discussions, and instead of helping are attacking people and acting really juvenile.
Can the mod's please monitor this more as some threads are really just devolving into one person calling another a tool and other annoying thread jacks.
Or at least is there some place to report these situations?
Honestly, I really haven't seen the rampant trollism that you're responding to. If you're talking about Frank, I find him to be generally informative, backs up his arguments with evidence, and he makes efforts not to thread-jack.
If you can come up with better examples, by all means share, but please don't advocate for massive changes to the community without evidence beyond a "few outspoken people". I'd think that the least that you could do would be to provide links so that we could think for ourselves, rather than simply trust your judgment.
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Why are you breaking my balls?Because they regenerate if I don't use silver and it's fun to see you suffer pain.
Edit: In all seriousness, I agree with you Heathy, things have gotten off the rails. It's good to see that some posters are taking the high road and ignoring the trolls. Hopefully that will resolve the problem without moderator intervention.
Gotcha, you little bastich! ;)
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I think he's talking about me. I need to be fed.. where's my virgin? :)
Anyway, as someone that spent many years as a volunteer Moderator for BioWare on their Neverwinter Nights (1) forums I can say that the degree of trolling on these forums are very low. Granted I don't read every posts, only the ones that interest me.. and some I never go back and read again after posting in, but I get around.
I'd love to see this off-forum tag teaming though. :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Gotcha, you little bastich! ;)
G!@~$&nit. I'm off to the vote to ban thread to list you. Jeff Probst is going to extinguish your torch and kick you off the island. When I win the million dollars, I will send you a picture of my hairy naked ass in a pile of money.
There is a million dollars at stake, right?
RIGHT?!?!?!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Honestly, I really haven't seen the rampant trollism that you're responding to. If you're talking about Frank, I find him to be generally informative, backs up his arguments with evidence, and he makes efforts not to thread-jack.If you can come up with better examples, by all means share, but please don't advocate for massive changes to the community without evidence beyond a "few outspoken people". I'd think that the least that you could do would be to provide links so that we could think for ourselves, rather than simply trust your judgment.
Take a look at the CR 8 fighter thread.
I have noticed that there are a few very outspoken people that are frequenting discussions, and instead of helping are attacking people and acting really juvenile.
If you can come up with better examples, by all means share, but please don't advocate for massive changes to the community without evidence beyond a "few outspoken people". I'd think that the least that you could do would be to provide links so that we could think for ourselves, rather than simply trust your judgment.
Honestly that is exactly what i was talking about.
Once insults get thrown, it becomes SERIOUS BUSINESS for some.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/general/lvl8FighterNotSupposedToWin50AgainstCR8Foe
As for the others, there are some in the myriad of sorcerer threads that show up and whatnot.
I was mostly just asking for people to check themselves before they throw out an insult.
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If you can come up with better examples, by all means share, but please don't advocate for massive changes to the community without evidence beyond a "few outspoken people". I'd think that the least that you could do would be to provide links so that we could think for ourselves, rather than simply trust your judgment.
I think if everybody starts flinging poo, that that's a massive change to this community for the worse, so it needs to stop.
If you can come up with better examples, by all means share, but please don't advocate for massive changes to the community without evidence beyond a "few outspoken people". I'd think that the least that you could do would be to provide links so that we could think for ourselves, rather than simply trust your judgment.
Honestly that is exactly what i was talking about.
I'm going to assume you meant the people on the two threads that you cited and not what I wrote. Because if asking for citations and evidence before making lending my support or opposition to a community proposal is an insult, well, call me a troll. 'Cause I'm always going to ask for the evidence before I make up my mind.
For the record, I've been involved in two cranky spats on the Ranger thread and both resolved themselves with apologies from myself and the other posters. Both of those issues were resolved amicably and they were both arguments chock-full of evidence on both sides. I'm also man enough to admit that my crankiness started the first one and was a contributing factor to the latter one.
Once insults get thrown, it becomes SERIOUS BUSINESS for some.
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/general/lvl8FighterNotSupposedToWin50AgainstCR8Foe
As for the others, there are some in the myriad of sorcerer threads that show up and whatnot.
I was mostly just asking for people to check themselves before they throw out an insult.
Okay. The Fighter 8 thread starts out perfectly reasonably, makes its case with evidence, and takes care to impact why this debate matters. Good form, Lich-loved! Still, this thread is unusual in that its stated purpose is to directly refute another member of the community, rather than a general discussion. It's hardly representative of these forums.
I think that Aubrey the Malformed is a bad person on the basis of quoting a private correspondence in a public forum. Poor show, old man.
I think Frank jumped the gun on his condemnation of THIS PARTICULAR THREAD, although I can understand getting a little hot under the collar. In general, I read the substance and discount the tone.
But ultimately, I think that who's wrong and who's right doesn't really matter here. I'd rather belong to an intellectual community that regulates itself and errs on the side of a free exchange of ideas. If that takes some growing pains, fine. The harm of the ban hammer outweighs the tiny benefit of making you feel more comfortable.
Give me both Frank and Lich-loved. It leads to a better understanding of the issues in the long-term.
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I too regret the falling of the modhammer. Poor tone aside, some of the issues being addressed are important and worth discussion, and given that threads discussing those issues are being locked, I fear it will essentially be impossible to re-raise them. Some of this, of course, is because it's likely that the same commentors would return and rehash the same disputes, but I also fear that Paizo itself would autolock any thread that attempts to (for instance) sort out the use or misuse of CR to playtest individual classes, or that challenges the effectiveness of the current sorcerer design, no matter how reasonably such a thread began.
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I think a positive exchange of ideas can thrive in a situation where you don't have the ability to twist off on somebody. In fact, I think it helps the free exchange of ideas to not have some asshat ready and entirely free to jump you on a whimsy. I don't see where the freedom to insult somebody with impunity, in a forum where it is ALLREADY AGAINST THE RULES, SO YOU CAN'T REASONABLY RESPOND IN KIND, needs to be protected.
I'm not whining for moderators, only for moderation.
2c.
can't blame them for that. no major revolution in CR/ EL would pop up. It didn't from what I read anyway. Just people going into in depth analysis of mathematic variables which is really just fun to talk & read about, not so actually useful in making the game better...unless they took months and months analyzing variables and play-testing mechanics.
On another note, because all of that stuff just causes arguments, just send it on it's way. There are other forums you could use for all that. We're supposedly trying to give opinions and player testing of a material set to help this company provide a better product...FOR US, and all the other just gets in the way.
Finally, when was the last time your GM singled you out and at any level and said, "this encounter is just for you!" "You're equal power, so good luck". Whenever that sort has happened to me in game there is usually a way for me try alerting the party, etc.
It was fun to read the last couple days, even if I'm no mathematician.
Happy posting,
-James
Finally, when was the last time your GM singled you out and at any level and said, "this encounter is just for you!" "You're equal power, so good luck".
Happy posting,-James
It was a frackin' blast. Epic level party (who got there from level one) vs. epic level enemies who had set up walls of time flux to separate us from each other. Some of us faced enemies with similar powers, others faced opposites. Off topic, but great fun. I strongly encourage DMs to try it as an encounter type once your party has access to raise dead magic.
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The locking of the Fighter/CR thread sets a poor precedent. It would seem that viable discussions can be closed down for everyone based on the behavior of a few. Who would have guessed that a wide-ranging debate with multiple, polite participants could be stifled simply by a few causing enough trouble in a thread? This sort of approach to addressing the problem only supports the points of those that shout the loudest and dare anyone to disagree.
Bad decision, Paizo.
Director of Games
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The locking of the Fighter/CR thread sets a poor precedent. It would seem that viable discussions can be closed down for everyone based on the behavior of a few. Who would have guessed that a wide-ranging debate with multiple, polite participants could be stifled simply by a few causing enough trouble in a thread? This sort of approach to addressing the problem only supports the points of those that shout the loudest and dare anyone to disagree.
Bad decision, Paizo.
Lich,
The point made in that thread, before it descended into bickering, was not lost on me. Unfortunately, the thread was started on a premise of refudiating another posters ideas. It should be noted that the ideas of playtesters are weighed by the design team on an individual basis and posting a lengthy thread to counter anothers ideas is not truly necessary. I appreciate your civil tone, but it could also be seen as baiting, to some extent.
While I am not pleased that this had to occur, for the good of this process, I think we just need to move along.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Honestly, I've never really seen trolling here.
I mean, to what extent do you want such things moderated? Do we really want to cater to the sensitivity of people who can't handle a simple "your logic is stupid"? Yes, people should feel welcome, but I don't think they should be afraid to enter heated debate because they'll get struck with the (Censored/banned/whatever) stick. That kind of overcensoring is the reason I stopped posting on the WOTC forums ages ago.
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Chief Technical Officer
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I'd just like to point out that while we do our best to maintain free and open discussion in most areas of our messageboards, that is *not* the number one goal of the Pathfinder RPG Playtest areas.
These areas of our boards exist to aid Paizo in the playtesting and development of the Pathfinder RPG, and the value of any post in that area is, for the most part, determined by Jason. If he thinks you're making his job harder, we *will* moderate you.
Jason-- would it be okay with you if I started a new CR thread in which I explained the stengths and weaknesses of CR as I see it, and possible design paradigms?
I'd just like to point out that while we do our best to maintain free and open discussion in most areas of our messageboards, that is *not* the number one goal of the Pathfinder RPG Playtest areas.
These areas of our boards exist to aid Paizo in the playtesting and development of the Pathfinder RPG, and the value of any post in that area is, for the most part, determined by Jason. If he thinks you're making his job harder, we *will* moderate you.
Uhhh...sorry? I wasn't trying to make his job harder?
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I checked out some of the threads and, to me, it doesn't seem like trolling. It seems like people who chose Charisma as their dump stat, if you catch my drift.
Intelligence and wisdom might have been some dump stats, too.
All-in-all, this is what the internet has been like since AOL. The fortunate thing is that the Paizo boards, and a few other gaming boards, are staffed by friendly, open admins and populated by largely awesome people. And me.
So you prefer the internet back when pages were made up of text characters...
STEVEJOBS19193> So I was telling Cindy it was OK to smoke weed as long as you didnt cut it with Basil...
...and it was frequented by weirdos from western American Universities (usually the ones involved in Defense contracts).
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Director of Games
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Jason-- would it be okay with you if I started a new CR thread in which I explained the stengths and weaknesses of CR as I see it, and possible design paradigms?
That would be just fine. Start whatever threads you like. I only ask that they not be based of picking apart someone else's idea.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I think that Aubrey the Malformed is a bad person on the basis of quoting a private correspondence in a public forum. Poor show, old man.
Yeah, I thought about that too. But Frank's actual comments that I quoted spoke up in favour of low politics (Stalin, Newt Gingrich) so I thought, "OK, what's sauce for the goose..." It was underhand, and I said so (that isn't justification, just an acknowledgement) but if Frank (and others who operate like this) are turning nasty to try and browbeat us into taking their point of view (which is silly - I generally don't disagree with Frank's understanding of the rules, he's done the legwork and can prove it) then they should not be especially surprised to have it come back at them.
That said, the initial cry for moderation came from K, who is Frank's buddy and also possessing an atrophied politeness organ. That irritated the hell out me, and I guess that showed later.
But my point, as I made in my low post, was that Frank knows his stuff and should be entitled to his say. If he tries to ram his point through by force, he should be ignored. It is easy to get drawn into trolling posts, and I know I have erred in some of the more recent exchanges - I smelt blood in the water and I reacted. I'm not especialy proud, but I really can't beat myself up about it - I didn't start it, and these guys give as good as they get.
I am concerned about the impact that this is having on the PF playtest.
I think that Aubrey the Malformed is a bad person on the basis of quoting a private correspondence in a public forum. Poor show, old man.Yeah, I thought about that too. But Frank's actual comments that I quoted spoke up in favour of low politics (Stalin, Newt Gingrich) so I thought, "OK, what's sauce for the goose..." It was underhand, and I said so (that isn't justification, just an acknowledgement) but if Frank (and others who operate like this) are turning nasty to try and browbeat us into taking their point of view (which is silly - I generally don't disagree with Frank's understanding of the rules, he's done the legwork and can prove it) then they should not be especially surprised to have it come back at them.
That said, the initial cry for moderation came from K, who is Frank's buddy and also possessing an atrophied politeness organ. That irritated the hell out me, and I guess that showed later.
But my point, as I made in my low post, was that Frank knows his stuff and should be entitled to his say. If he tries to ram his point through by force, he should be ignored. It is easy to get drawn into trolling posts, and I know I have erred in some of the more recent exchanges - I smelt blood in the water and I reacted. I'm not especialy proud, but I really can't beat myself up about it - I didn't start it, and these guys give as good as they get.
I am concerned about the impact that this is having on the PF playtest.
Naw... this is the "bag of kittens tossed into the machine" effect.
Imagine a machine with numerous whirrling parts. Now imagine you see somebody open up the machine and throw a bag of kittens in it in order to draw some specific conclusions about the effects of this machine on said bag of kittens. Well really it's not much of a test.
You will end up with a mess of dead kittens.
To counter people throwing bags of kittens in this machine, you should not then try to counter with your own bag of kittens...because that just produces more dead kittens.
Sir Urza is right as well. As far as trolling, bickering, and flaming go, these forums don't even make a blip on the radar. This is actually one of the most civil messageboards I think I have ever posted on.
Basically, this isn't a board where trolling is specifically enjoyed or wanted and this section in specific has a point to it relating to the creation of something...where a talk like this might be Ok in the "other" section of the board, I would say it doesn't belong here.
Basically, don't throw kittens into the machine. :P
Naw... this is the "bag of kittens tossed into the machine" effect.Imagine a machine with numerous whirrling parts. Now imagine you see somebody open up the machine and throw a bag of kittens in it in order to draw some specific conclusions about the effects of this machine on said bag of kittens. Well really it's not much of a test.
You will end up with a mess of dead kittens.
To counter people throwing bags of kittens in this machine, you should not then try to counter with your...
*sniff* Do you know how many millions of familiars are killed by inevitables every year? Now I'm sad.
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*sniff* Do you know how many millions of familiars are killed by inevitables every year? Now I'm sad.
Naw... this is the "bag of kittens tossed into the machine" effect.Imagine a machine with numerous whirrling parts. Now imagine you see somebody open up the machine and throw a bag of kittens in it in order to draw some specific conclusions about the effects of this machine on said bag of kittens. Well really it's not much of a test.
You will end up with a mess of dead kittens.
To counter people throwing bags of kittens in this machine, you should not then try to counter with your...
Watch out, McArtor will summon his Legion of Cat Girls to go after you!
Plus, I'm not really sure that constantly bringing up specific people and what they may or may not have said to bring us to this particular situation will actually do much to make this a more civil areas. I think that Paizo is working on the problem, and it works a lot better to not call people out in public, but rather just send a nice friendly e-mail to the Paizonians, and let them do their job. The more public something is, the more messy it is, and the longer it takes to clean up.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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But I want to know who I've alienated and made hate me... :)
I hate you. Mom always loved you more than Mishra, and he and I used to roll back in the day. Plus, you refuse to acknowledge your secret desire to be an armchair designer.
So, rest assured, you are on the super secret Sebastian's Enemies List, albeit below Karelzarath, Heathansson, Fatespinner, and the Jade.
