Swiping from both another thread and the Assassin's Creed game, there are multiple ways of performing this task.
Diplomacy: Asking around for what people know.
Sense Motive: Find people that know more, but don't want to say it.
Bluff: As per the Amber series of novels (and Cook's 'metal detective' series), pretend to know more than you do and see what extra info people assume you already know.
Intimidate: Pummel people until they talk, or pull a Rorsach. (Or a Marcus, for all you B5 fans.)
For adults:
In a PG campaign, much the same effect can be acheived through Perform (massage).
Disguise: Pretend to be either someone the target knows, or someone they don't know but know they need to answer to.
In general, I'm tempted to reference the little bubble charts for figuring out tech devices in White Peaks (IIRC, I remember it's the first adventure that has a froghemoth). But this leads to the Glantri political system, which was never explained well enough to be useful. That, and I'm tempted to find a copy of Red Arrow, Black Shield.
But I'm going to stop me before I babble on too much. My main point is that even simple activities can, with a little creativity, enhance the adventure rather than cause it to stagnate.
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Agree. Gathering information seem to be something you do with a number of skills, not a skill in its own right. Kinda' like using rope. To separate out one of the more useful applications from those skill actually detracts from them.
Mostly I'd include it with Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate, but I can see how a creative player could justify in some of the other skills you mentioned as well.
Well I think Gather Information should be tracking down the info, which might cover research in a library or listening to rumors and such. The above skills would be useful for trying to get information out of a specific NPC. A Gather Information check might lead into a roleplaying encounter if the local NPCs are reluctant to give you that specific info. And as I've said elsewhere Gather Information and Sense Motive should be combined into an Insight skill.
Bad name, good idea.
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I agree. Before the Pathfinder RPG announcement, I'd been discussing with my group the idea of replacing Gather Information with Knowledge(local) to determine a good spot to find specific information, then using Diplomacy rolls against individual NPCs to make them helpful enough to provide the info (or direct you to someone who could).
I hadn't thought of using Bluff or the other methods you mention but they are all great ideas.
Before the Pathfinder RPG announcement, I'd been discussing with my group the idea of replacing Gather Information with Knowledge(local) to determine a good spot to find specific information, then using Diplomacy rolls against individual NPCs to make them helpful enough to provide the info (or direct you to someone who could).
I hadn't thought of using Bluff or the other methods you mention but they are all great ideas.
The OP is bloody brilliant, and you're idea to use K(Local) to give the PCs ideas were to dig for info is the perfect addition!
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I know this doesn't quite fit how the rules work now, but theoretically I see it working something like this ...
You get to Riddleport and need to gather some information. You rogue grew up there and has several ranks of Knowledge (Riddleport). He rolls to see if he knows where to start looking. Next, each person explains how they are going to try to gather information. The rogue is going to sweet-talk some of his contacts (Diplomacy), the bard is going to the local tavern to chat up the barmaids and pump them for information (flirting = Bluff). The uncharismatic barbarian sees a gang of street kids and goes to push them around a little (Intimidate (Str)), and the cleric goes to do some research in the temple library (Search). The rogue got a good roll on Knowledge (Riddleport) so that gives everyone +2 Aid Another bonuses and the rogue a +2 Lordzack Synergy bonus.
Now comes the role playing. Each player says what he or she is going to say. If they say something great, +2 situation bonus. If they say something lame, -2. Everyone rolls for their various attempts to gather information.
Consequences - the rogue did really well and now has a contact who is friendly and will seek them out later if she hears anything. The street gang did give the barbarian some valuable information but might look to get even with her later. The barmaids also gave a few tips and had stars in their eyes when the bard left, but if they ever find out about each other ... And the cleric found out something interesting in the temple's genealogy records.
4 different attempts to gather information based on 3 ability scores and 5 skills. It includes role playing and roll playing and synergy bonuses.
Very nice, but actually I would like to see Knowledge (Local) and Gather Info be fused into one effectiv skill.
Meaning: Let it be usable in every city/region, not the one you would have picked for K(Local).
Call it Streetwise, or something.
There is just the need to clearly distinct this skill and the three "Gather Info" skills.
Meaning: What does it actually do. How does it actually work. What is character actually doing when you are rolling the dice?
I think the main use should be:
You come into a new town. You walk around an hour or so (depending on the size of the community). After that, you make a roll. The more you succeed the more you know:
Success
Basic (general situation of the community. broadspread gossip. most important names and organizations (mayor, local lord, temple, mage order etc.)
Improved (nice taverns to stay, good shops, lessspread gossip, etc.)
Greater (local blackmarket, thieves guilds/secret groups, I don't know...)
Supreme (everything relevant there is to know about)
I've already rolled Gather Info and Knowledge (local) together into Streetwise, as DracoDruid suggested. My logic: in order to bluff, "diplomatize," intimidate, or pillow-talk information from someone, you've got to know who to ask. "Gather Information," to me, isn't "gain information from a specific individual with whom you're already interacting;" it's about getting rumors or hints of who that person might be. Certainly, it'll also give you standard rumors and allow you some chance of separating the wheat from the chaff, but I don't hand out detailed, specific info that way. Instead, I allow a Streetwise roll to say, "Looks like we're on the right track, thinking the Duke is maybe crooked. And I think I know a guy who might be able to give us a lead to someone who might have the real info we want." Then, when you track down that guy, you use Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, or whatever.
But I run a skill-heavy, investigation-heavy game. If you want to minimize skill rolls between fights, rolling all that into one check is probably the way to go.
I like your way and will use it one way or the other!
And I think Pathfinder should adapt it too! (in one way or the other) ;)
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Streetwise
I like that better than the Knowledge (underworld) that I proposed in another thread. I tried to get a Knowledge skill for each class but Strretwise does that one better. It rolls that getting-the-lay-of-the-land aspect together with knowing (or being able to figure out) where the black markets are and where to fence stolen items. Actually, it could also serve as the urban equivalent of Survival too. Very nice.
Do you imagine this would replace the gather info aspects of Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate, or would it be another another way find stuff out? (I vote for it being another way - granted they are all a little redundant but by basing them on a variety of abilities and class skills, plus having a variety of consequences, I think each skill fills a unique niche.)
I also like your degrees of success chart.
Do you imagine this would replace the gather info aspects of Diplomacy, Bluff and Intimidate, or would it be another another way find stuff out?
Neither, in my game -- rather, it gives you the opportunity to use Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate (see example).
Yeah. Just like I wrote afterwards:
You come into a new town/city. You roll streetwise. If successful you know the general stuff going on in town. BUT no special or detailed informations.
If you rolled a good one, you may know where to ask further, thus enabling you to use either diplomacy, deception or dominance (great the three "d"s!), ONCE you found the person.
ONE THING:
Since Track is now a part of Survival, make Urban Tracking a part of Streetwise!
Oh. Another thing. If we use this skill. Can we get rid of Knowledge (Local)? (No character should use his skill points to actually know what's going on in his homeland/city!)
Yeah. Just like I wrote afterwards:
1. You come into a new town/city. You roll streetwise. If successful you know the general stuff going on in town. BUT no special or detailed informations.
If you rolled a good one, you may know where to ask further, thus enabling you to use either diplomacy, deception or dominance (great the three "d"s!), ONCE you found the person.2. ONE THING: Since Track is now a part of Survival, make Urban Tracking a part of Streetwise!
3. Oh. Another thing. If we use this skill. Can we get rid of Knowledge (Local)? (No character should use his skill points to actually know what's going on in his homeland/city!)
Yes! All of that is exactly how I envision it, in almost every particular. To be more specific:
1. Exactly right;
2. Yes, exactly!
3. I agree to some extent, but I still make them roll, and just give them a bonus. I know some people who are surprisingly clueless about their home towns.
I know some people who are surprisingly clueless about their home towns.
Yeah, because they play computer all the time ;).
No honestly. Take your "friends" and substract, computers, the internet, all other media (tv, radio, printmedia), cars & bikes, trains, airplanes and ...To make it easy. Substract electricity and all other vehicles except muscle powered ones.
Now. What do you thing will your friends do all the time? Do you think this would chance their knowledge about their home country/city?
I surely do.
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1. Exactly right;
2. Yes, exactly!
3. I agree to some extent, but I still make them roll, and just give them a bonus. I know some people who are surprisingly clueless about their home towns.
1. agree
2. agree3. agree w. Kirth. Nobody needs Knowledge (local) to know what is going on in their hometown - common knowledge is DC 10 - but to know who the power brokers are and everyone's secret or the forgotten lore of the town, that's a higher DC and would require some ranks in Knowledge (local). Although, I prefer Knowledge (insert town/region name).
Although, I prefer Knowledge (insert town/region name).
I agree that your model makes perfect sense (and is indeed the best way of doing it) when using the 3.5 model of very narrow skills. With some combination going on in Pathfinder, though, I lean towards streamlining that mechanic a bit (by simply keeping a general skill and applying a competence bonus for the character's home town). Have you ever met someone who seems to know someone in every town and city? They hit an unfamiliar town, call their "buddy," and within a few days they know who to see for anything you'd care to name. People have networks -- even people in Medieval times -- and if you are "in" in your hometown, you have a better chance of finding someone in your network elsewhere.
I'd say that even in a totally alien city, if you're adept at scoping out the gathering spots and negotiating various groups in one place, you'd have a big advantage in a new place as well -- certainly over someone who spends all day scribing scrolls (instead of playing World of Warcraft, to reply to DracoDruid as well).
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I'd say that even in a totally alien city, if you're adept at scoping out the gathering spots and negotiating various groups in one place, you'd have a big advantage in a new place as well ...
See, that fades into Streetwise to me. Knowledge (Riddleport) is specif knowledge about Riddleport, while Streetwise is knowing how to find out things in any city.
See, that fades into Streetwise to me. Knowledge (Riddleport) is specif knowledge about Riddleport, while Streetwise is knowing how to find out things in any city.
Yeah, they're all one skill in my game. Your model is good, too -- especially if you have characters who pretend to be from somewhere other than their actual home country (in which case they'd need Bluff AND Local Knowledge). I just figure -- and this is purely personal preference -- that since it's competing with Perception and Stealth and Acrobatics for skill points, I'd make Streetwise a bit more useful, and eliminate the individual local knowledge ones.
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Well I think Gather Information should be tracking down the info, which might cover research in a library or listening to rumors and such. The above skills would be useful for trying to get information out of a specific NPC. A Gather Information check might lead into a roleplaying encounter if the local NPCs are reluctant to give you that specific info. And as I've said elsewhere Gather Information and Sense Motive should be combined into an Insight skill.
Hmmm... I think that any researching and resources are handled via competence/research bonus to an appropriate Knowledge roll. Gather Information is more about social interaction and "streetwise" -- you go around and ask certain people who might know about the subject.
I agree that Insight should be included in the game, *BUT* only as a sub-skill of Perception. Insight is about "scrutinizing" people and intuition.
If there's any new skill added to the game, I suggest Streetwise, because it would represent "urban survival" and knowledge about where and who to ask (you could get bonuses on your Streewise roll if you also have Knowledge (Local)).
Anyway, that's how I feel.