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Through several threads there are two discussions that have been occurring regarding the skill system in Alpha. The first is regarding the nature of the skill point system, which most people seem to feel is very good, and needs just a little tweaking. At the same time, there are conversations about what the skill list SHOULD look like. The two are interrelated, so a change in one necessitates a change in the other. If you have a perfect ‘skill point allocation system’ but then combine skills so there are only half as many skills, it is necessary and prudent to also revise that skill allocation system to provide fewer skill points.
With that in mind, in order to have a meaningful discussion of what the skill list should look like, it is necessary to presume a skill allocation system so everyone is discussing the same thing. This thread is not a place to discuss what the skill allocation system should be, only what the skill list should be to match the ‘presumed’ skill system. For the purpose of this thread, I’d like to presume that the skill system is as Alpha, but classes that get 2 skills per level instead get 4 skills per level. That change seems to have a lot of support (though of course there are some who do not favor that, or instead favor a 3/4/5/6 progression) so if we can agree on that for the purpose of this discussion we can move forward on the skill list. Once a skill list is ‘finalized’ or ‘perfected’ for the 4/6/8 progression, we can look at what changes should occur to that skill list if we made a change to the skill allocation system (like to a 3/4/5/6), or how those other systems would interact with the balanced system.
Let me begin by laying out the original 3.5 system:
Appraise (Int)
Balance (Dex)
Bluff (Cha)
Climb (Str)
Concentration (Con)
Craft (Int)
Decipher Script (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha)
Disable Device (Int)
Disguise (Cha)
Escape Artist (Dex)
Forgery (Int)
Gather Information (Cha)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Hide (Dex)
Intimidate (Cha)
Jump (Str)
Knowledge (Int): All skills taken individually.
Knowledge (arcana)
Knowledge (architecture & engineering)
Knowledge (dungeoneering)
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (nobility & royalty)
Knowledge (religion)
Knowledge (the planes)
Listen (Wis)
Move Silently (Dex)
Open Lock (Dex)
Perform (Cha)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Dex)
Search (Int)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Speak Language (N/A)
Spellcraft (Int)
Spot (Wis)
Survival (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Tumble (Dex)
Use Magic Device (Cha)
Use Rope (Dex)
You may have also included Control Shape Change (from the Monster Manual) and Autohypnosis (Expanded Psionics Handbook). There are also a few more that might have popped up in a third party supplement or a Dragon magazine, since adding skills was done with some frequency.
For the purpose of comparison, in the 3.5 Player’s Handbook there are 45 skills.
There are three Strength based skills (Climb, Jump, Swim). There are nine Dexterity based skills (Balance, Escape Artist, Hide, Move Silently, Ride, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Use Rope). There is one Constitution based skill (Concentration). There are seven distinct skills that use Intelligence (Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Forgery, Search, Spellcraft) as well as Knowledge (10 of which are listed). Considering the Knowledge skills as separate skills, that yields 17 skills with Intelligence as the key ability. There are four Wisdom based skills (Heal, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive), and eight Charisma based skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Gather Information, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device).
Pathfinder Alpha 2 takes the 45 skills present in 3.5 and reduces it to 35 skills (22% reduction in number of skills). It does this by combining several skills, but adding at least one more.
They are:
Acrobatics (Dex) [combination of Balance, Tumble, Jump]
Appriase (Int) [expanded uses from 3.5 including Identifying items]
Bluff (Cha) [expanded uses from 3.5 including the old Innuendo (3.0), Feint, lie]
Climb (Str) [unchanged from 3.5]
Craft (Int) [unchanged from 3.5]
Diplomacy (Cha) [combines Diplomacy and Gather Information]
Disable Device (Int) [combines Disable Device and Open Lock]
Disguise (Cha) [unchanged from 3.5]
Escape Artist (Dex) [unchanged from 3.5]
Fly (Dex) [brand new skill for Pathfinder]
Handle Animal (Cha) [unchanged from 3.5]
Heal (Wis) [expanded use - treat deadly wound]
Intimidate (Cha) [demoralize or force someone to act friendly for a short time]
Knowledge (arcana) (Int) [as 3.5 but includes part of Spellcraft – identifying spell targeting you]
All other knowledges unchanged from 3.5
Knowledge (architecture & engineering)
Knowledge (dungeoneering)
Knowledge (geography)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (nobility & royalty)
Knowledge (religion)
Knowledge (the planes)
Linguisitcs (Int) [Decipher Script, Forgery, Speak Language]
Perception (Wis) [Spot, Listen, Search, plus use other senses to ‘notice’ things]
Perform (Cha) [unchanged from 3.5]
Profession (Wis) [unchanged from 3.5]
Ride (Dex)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Sleight of Hand (Dex) [unchanged from 3.5]
Spellcraft (Int) [All spell-casting uses of 3.5 Concentration, plus identify a spell as it is being cast or learn a spell from a spell book]
Stealth (Dex)
Survival (Wis) [Mostly as 3.5]
Swim (Str) [Unchanged from 3.5]
Use Magic Device (Cha) [unchanged from 3.5]
This gives us two Strength based skills (climb, swim), seven Dexterity based skills (Acrobatics, Disable Device, Escape Artist, Fly, Ride, Sleight of Hand, Stealth), zero Constitution based skills, 14 Intelligence based skills (Appraise, Craft, 10 knowledge skills, Linguistics, Spellcraft), four Wisdom based skills (Heal, Perception, Sense Motive, Survival), and seven Charisma based skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device).
Comparing the two systems, it is obvious that there are fewer skills in the Alpha. Some skills remained unchanged, some skills now include two old uses, and some include three or more. This has created a situation where some skills are clearly better than other skills. Acrobatics and Perception are the two skills that suffer from this the most, they become desirable not from a character conception point of view, but simply from a benefit-to-cost ratio. They expand your options the most for the least amount of input. It should also be noted that the rogue, particularly, has more skill points than necessary with the Alpha system. The 3.5 rogue has 29 class skills, the Alpah 2 has 21 skills. As an example, a rogue with 11 skill points per level in 3.5 has 37% of their class skills maxed, and 24% of the total skills. The Pathfinder Rogue has all those abilities and more, with 52% of class skills and 31% of the total skills available. Basically, it means that the rogue is getting a significant boost in the ‘spending power’ of each rank they have. Now, I personally don’t favor reducing the rogue’s skill point assignment. But I do think that the skills may be too far combined to make them truly useful.
My Proposal
Acrobatics (Dex)
Appraise (Int)
Bluff (Cha)
Climb (Str)
Concentration (Con)
Craft (Int)
Decipher Script (Int)
Diplomacy (Cha)
Disable Device (Int)
Disguise (Cha)
Escape Artist (Dex)
Fly (Dex)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Intimidate (Cha)
Jump (Str)
Knowledge (Int): All skills taken individually
Knowledge (Architecture & Engineering)
Knowledge (History)
Knowledge (Nature)
Knowledge (Regional)
Knowledge (Religion)
Perception (Wis)
Perform (Cha)
Profession (Wis)
Ride (Wis)
Search (Int)
Sense Motive (Wis)
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Speak Language (N/A)
Stealth (Dex)
Spellcraft (Int)
Survival (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Use Magic Device (Cha)
Expanation
Acrobatics (Dex) [Balance + Tumble]
Tumble is a good skill. Balance is not a very useful skill. Putting Balance in with Tumble ends up with a good skill, and the two benefits are certainly related (moving through dangerous terrain). I’d rather ‘give Balance away free’ with the purchase of a skill than see it stand alone and never be used.
Appraise (Int)
I have a problem with this skill as written in Alpha 2. I don’t think that it should allow the players to identify a magical item. I certainly don’t think it should allow an NPC to do so. I’d rather see Appraise help in getting a good price for an item. Usually DMs have someone make a Diplomacy check, but when money is involved, people don’t want to pay you more than something is worth, even if they like you. However, if you can point out all the things that make the item valuable, you should be able to get a good price for it. As a DM the most annoying thing I deal with regularly is saying ‘You find 15 malachite chips’ and then 3 sessions later, they’re trying to buy something and they’re like ‘hey, how much are these malachite chips worth that we found?’. At that point, I don’t know. So, I’d really like it if the appraise skill allowed them to know the ‘value’ of the item, so they could write it down when we talk about treasure or art pieces, but reason to take the skill is to get a significant portion of that value when they sell it. So, if an art piece is worth 20,000 gp, they might get 5,000 if they sell it, but with a DC 15 check, they’ll get 50%, and if they beat a DC 30, they get the ‘real value’. With a skill like that built into the system, I won’t be worried about treasure being ‘unbalanced’.
Bluff (Cha)
I like this one as is.
Climb (Str)
I like this one as is. With Fly and Swim being their own skills, I think this makes sense being its own skill as well.
Concentration (Con)
Every spell caster needs to be able to concentrate. I think this one can stand on its own. I understand removing the ‘skill tax’ from spell casters, but I propose doing that in a slightly different way. By keeping concentration, we keep the key ability as something that is important to every spell casting class without giving Intelligence based casters (wizards) a significant advantage. This will also provide a home for the ‘non PHB skills’ mentioned above – Autohypnosis and Control Shapechange. Adding in a new skill when a character suddenly contracts lycanthropy is a pain. Having it as a function of another skill (that most characters won’t keep ranks in) is good. I also like allowing a Concentration check to allow the use of another skill that normally provokes an attack of opportunity without that normal attack. For example, the battlefield medic will take Concentration to use the Heal skill in a threatened square without provoking an attack himself. In this sense, it would not be about ‘focusing on the task at hand’ but splitting your focus – doing what is necessary without dropping your attention from the rest of the battlefield. I’ve seen plenty of examples in movies – the medic is working, but seeing movement drops down, fires a couple of rifle rounds, then resumes work.
Craft (Int)
No problem for me. I like craft skills. The only thing I would suggest is fixing the way the time takes. Some things (like a house) just take way too long to build. If the Amish can raise a barn in a week, the craft rules ought to cover that kind of situation as well. Aid another doesn’t really do it, and maybe trying to break down a complex structure into multiple simple pieces (beam, door, stall) might, I think the system could be reworked so the time it takes to build an object is more true to ‘real life’.
Decipher Script (Int)
I think this one can stand on its own. The thing is, I understand that it is difficult to decipher something if you don’t speak the language. Giving free languages with mastering this skill, though, just seems wrong. If you show someone a language that they’re unfamiliar with, if they’re really good, they’ll be able to figure some of it out. For example, I don’t know French, but my wife does. When I ‘read’ in French, I look for proper nouns and try to understand who the script is talking about. I look for cognates, and try to determine if that works for figuring out the verb. I can decipher some French even though I speak only about 30 words. Not much, but I don’t think I’ve put a lot of work into decipher script, like certain archaeologists might. So, leave it as a stand alone skill.
Diplomacy (Cha) [Diplomacy + Gather Information]
I’m good with this as written. I like the combination of Gather Information into Diplomacy. It makes sense that people will be more likely to tell you things if you can make them feel comfortable with you.
Disable Device (Int) [Open Lock + Disable Device]
I like the Alpha 2 version, but I’d prefer to see Intelligence in place of Dexterity.
Disguise (Cha)
I’m good with this as well.
Escape Artist (Dex)
There is a major problem with Escape Artist in 3.5. It is really unclear when it should be used when dealing with creatures of different size. Paizo is guilty of this. Frequently there are modules where there is a chimney that a small character can move through, but a medium creature must make an escape artist check, DC 25. I’d really like to see Escape Artist as a good way for small and tiny characters with a poor BAB to escape a grapple. I was just using Dire Bears yesterday in Fortress of the Stone Giants, and whether we use the new or old grapple rules, the Barbarian at 10th level if okay, the gnome wizard at 10th level is not. I’d like to see a size bonus for Escape Artist checks that is the ‘reverse’ of the size bonuses for Grapple checks. If you’ve ever had a small pet (like a lizard) you’ll know what I mean. It isn’t that you aren’t strong enough to easily control them, it is that if you make even a small opening they ‘dart right out’. Then, when something requires an escape artist check, it will require it for everyone, small characters will just have a significant bonus over medium creatures. So, small creatures would get a +4 on Escape Artist checks, and Large creatures would get a -4. The rule would be simple, easy to adjudicate, and make small characters a more viable choice.
Fly (Dex)
I like this as a skill. It won’t affect that many PCs, but it will help define what a character can and cannot do in various flying situations. I like that.
Handle Animal (Cha)
I like this skill. I oppose the combination of this skill with Ride. However, I don’t like the druid’s wild empathy ability. If you’re a druid, what is the point of putting ranks into this skill? You can use your animal empathy ability instead. Your bonus won’t be quite as good, but you can do more with it. I think the animal empathy ability should allow you to use your Handle Animal check instead of a modified level check. Then someone with even a few levels of druid can make use of wild empathy (a la Beastmaster movie).
Heal (Wis)
No complaints, noble leader.
Intimidate (Cha)
The big debate with Intimidate is whether or not it should really use Charisma. I’m going to just go on the side that says, yes, it should. Sure, I understand that there are a lot of intimidating people that don’t have a good charisma. But I do think that it is more of a presence than anything else, so the fact that there are ‘goons’ with a lot of ranks, but a low key ability modifier doesn’t bother me that much. Combined with the Alpha 2 system of giving you a +3 if it is a class skill, I think it works just fine.
Jump (Str)
I think this skill can stand on its own. Since I’ve had monk characters with ridiculous jump checks, I know that you can do a lot with this skill. If it stands on its own, there should be more about allowing you to use it to bypass rough terrain. Jump really should be your skill to allow a charge when you might not otherwise be able to. If you can jump enough to avoid the obstacles, you should be able to get your attack. You might also be able to use jump to (as a move action) to gain a +1 height advantage for your attack. These kinds of uses would make the skill better, and it could stand on its own even against the Acrobatics skill.
Knowledge (Int)
There are 10 knowledge skills in the game, and this is the one category most often expanded (followed by profession). Just about anything can be a knowledge skill. Astronomy, Navigation, harrow readings. At some point it has to be pretty clear that we need a system that is expandable (adding more abilities into existing skills) or we have to make sure that it is defined what types of knowledge you can include in a Profession roll (probably astronomy and navigation could go in profession: sailor) pretty easily. Since there are 10 skills in this category, this is going to be a several paragraph explanation.
I propose cutting the 10 knowledge skills down to 5:
Knowledge (architecture & engineering)
Knowledge (history)
Knowledge (local)
Knowledge (nature)
Knowledge (religion)
Knowledge (arcana). This skill should be eliminated. Spellcraft already allows for a character to identify a spell as it is being cast. Rather than retain this skill so we have a place to put in a ‘mysterious magical fountain’, let’s just roll that into Spellcraft too. Spellcraft should be the skill for recognizing any magical effects. Your friend is dominated – spellcraft. Magical fountain in the forest – spellcraft to determine what it does. You find a magical sword in the dragon’s hoard – spellcraft to determine what type of magical sword. I’d take the ‘identify magical items’ out of Appraise and put it in Spellcraft, and the identify spellcasting out of knowledge (arcana) and put that in Spellcraft. What do we have left? Identifying constructs, dragons and magical beasts? Well, we can put magical beasts into (nature) easily, and dragons into (history) without stretching believability. The constructs is a tough one because they’re created by arcane magic, but (engineering) needs a creature type. So there we go. Nothing left for Knowledge (arcana) so we eliminate it.
Knowledge (architecture and engineering) can be kept as long as we give it a creature (like constructs) to identify weaknesses in. All the other uses don’t really help much in terms of ‘mechanics’, so the only time I see this taken is for strictly flavor reasons.
Knowledge (dungeoneering) doesn’t make sense to me. Sure, there are oozes and some aberrations in Dungeons. There are also some in the underdark, and some above ground. Not all aberrations reside underground. Since I want to keep the identifying monster skills as ‘knowledge’ skills, aberrations and oozes need to go somewhere. I think oozes can go to (nature), and aberrations can go to (religion).
Knowledge (geography) doesn’t have any creatures to worry about. I know my geography pretty well. I also know my fantasy geography, and I know a lot about topography. I think that most of the uses of the skills are going to be part of survival (terrain, climate) and anything that is about a place can go into (local). If you have knowledge (local) Varisia, you’d expect to have a sense of what towns are where and and what the general geography is. So, I do think knowledge (local) to have a function should be regional, rather than specifically one town or one city. Since seldom does an adventurer stay in one place that long, having a single place you know a lot about isn’t usually very useful. It can be assumed that locals actually know about their locality without spending ranks on the knowledge (skill). Since most NPCs don’t have ranks in this anyway, but they can find the blacksmith just fine, I don’t think that would be a problem.
Knowledge (history) is an important skill. Throw in identifying dragons and you’ve got a complete skill. Since it already has ‘royalty’ as part of what it does, we can also eliminate (nobility & royalty).
Knowledge (Local) can do a lot. I’ve changed to Knowledge (regional) as per my discussion of knowledge (geography). And of course, it includes identifying humanoids, so let’s throw in monstrous humanoids as well.
Knowledge (Nature) will cover animals, fey, giants, magical beasts, plants and vermin as far as identifying creatures. This makes it a ‘big hitter’ in the identifying creatures category, but it certainly isn’t complete. I’m okay with that since most of the creatures that you fight are ‘natural’ creatures anyways. I pulled the monstrous humanoids and put them in with the Knowledge (regional) to avoid some of that ‘lumping’.
Knowledge (Religion) can safely cover everything that was in knowledge (planes) and in knowledge (religion). Identifying devils and demons seems more in line with religion, and since cosmology can and does vary from game to game, figuring anything that comes from ‘beyond’ is a religious matter is easy for me. What I really like about this is that it helps make the game more ‘flexible’ since there isn’t an inherent presumption that there are multiple ‘planes’. If there is a ‘river of fire’ and all the ‘native fire outsiders’ come from it in your game world, it would work to have this under (religion) or if you have a complicated system of multi-fire planes with conjunctions and cross-over points, it works as well. It becomes an abstraction I’m happy with.
And we already covered why we’d eliminate (nobility & royalty) and (planes). So, I think we’re good.
Perception (Wis) [spot+listen]
I like it without Search. I like the other perception senses being included as well. I don’t want a 6th sense here, since I think this is more about noticing surroundings – your actual ability to sense what is around you, not necessarily to interpret all the data.
Perform (Cha)
I like this as is.
Profession (Wis)
If we want to make some better economics rules, this is a good place to do so, but I’m okay with it as is.
Ride (Wis)
I like this standing alone, but I don’t really like armor check penalty. The research shows that armor doesn’t really get in your way that much. Sure, it is heavy, but it is designed to give you your full range of motion. So, I think we can put this skill with Wisdom, sort of an ability to understand what your horse is thinking – when to duck in your saddle as a low branch approaches, and things along that line. Sure, I admit it is an abstraction, but it clears up the whole armor check penalty without keeping it as an exception to the general rule.
Search (Int)
Here’s the deal with Search. You search for something when your senses tell you that it isn’t there. It isn’t like Spot, where you notice someone hiding in the shadows. If you pass by a secret door that is well manufactured, there should be no clue to its presence. Even the ‘line’ that defines the door might be set to follow the brick pattern, which every other brick might have as well. So, when you reach a dead end and see no sign of a secret door, you start looking for it systematically. I do the same thing with my watch. There are a lot of places I might take it off and leave it (unlike my wallet). I look in the rooms I usually leave it in, and hope to spot it. If that fails, then I actually have to search each room. It is a much more ‘thorough and organized’ endeavor. I like this on its own.
Sense Motive (Wis)
I’m glad to see it back. No changes.
Sleight of Hand (Dex)
Also glad to see it is back on its own. No changes.
Speak Language (N/A)
For a long time, people have gotten ‘free’ languages for their intelligence modifier. I am a very intelligent person, and though I’ve had Spanish and Japanese classes, I don’t speak either language fluently. I’ve known people who are much smarter than me who also only speak 1 language. Learning a language is a function of learning. Skill ranks best represent that. I don’t think that someone who does the CryptoQuote in the Daily Paper should automatically learn a new language every month, either. So, I think that Speak Lanaguage should lose the ‘exception’ for gaining automatic ranks equal to your intelligence modifier, and let everyone learn a language for the use of a skill point. If everyone speaks their native language only, they’re going to have a 1 skill point tax to learn common. I’m fine with that.
Stealth (Dex) [hide+move silently]
I like this.
Spellcraft (Int)
I don’t like Spellcraft taking over Concentration’s functions. I do like the skill as the one for identifying any spell being cast or any magical effect the party encounters.
Survival (Wis)
Throw Use Rope in here, and we’re good. Tying knots is part of trapping and hunting and every other type of survival skill. It needs a home, might as well be here.
Swim (Str)
Just like Fly and Climb, I like this one as a stand-alone skill.
Use Magic Device (Cha)
I like this one as is.
Analysis
Under my proposed system, there are only 34 skills, 1 less than Alpha. The major difference is that no skill includes more than 2 skills that were once 3.5, and most of the consolidation occurred in the knowledge skill department.
There are three Strength based skills (Climb, Jump, Swim), five Dexterity based skills (Acrobatics, Escape Artist, Fly, Sleight of Hand, Stealth), one Constitution based skill (Concentration), 11 Intelligence based skills (Appraise, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, 5 Knowledge skills, Search, Spellcraft), six Wisdom based skills (Heal, Perception, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Survival,) ,seven Charisma based skills (Bluff, Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Perform, Use Magic Device) and one with no key ability modifier (Speak Language).
Let me look at the Wizard as the example to most likely break the system. If we give the wizard 4 skill points + Intelligence modifier, we can certainly expect to see a wizard begin with 9 skills. By 20th level, having a permanent 30 Intelligence score is not unlikely, meaning 15 class skills. With 5 Knowledge skills, Spellcraft and Concentration, at 1st level our wizard is going to use 7 of his skills, but this isn’t too much different than 3.5. Instead of ‘spreading’ in knowledge skills, he can max them all. The other two skill points might go to a skill like Search or Acrobatics to give him some extra capability. If we stop giving away 5 languages for free at 1st level, though, he’ll likely save those skill points for languages. If he really wants to be a master of languages, he might even devote 1 point per level. With 15 skills/level (at 20th level) there won’t be much he can’t do. He’ll have the five knowledge skills, tumble and search, 20 languages, and still have seven skills left to max out. Of course, Knowledge (regional) is one that he can take multiple times, each time with a different region . It is probably going to be tempting to have a few of those. This really means that he isn’t greatly increasing his effectiveness. He’ll probably pick up some swim/climb/jump, etc. But even a ‘weak’ wizard who does a lot of adventuring should be able to learn these things. I really don’t see this as broken.
The rogue had the most skill points before. Assuming a relatively good Intelligence, let’s assume 11 skill points/level. Disable Device, Stealth, and Acrobatics are ‘must haves’. Search would be another ‘required skill’. Perception would be a smart choice. After filling out the core functions, our theoretical rogue has 5 more skills to use. Bluff would be a good choice, so would knowledge (regional) and Diplomacy. Two more skills left. These can be used to round out the character or give some extra mobility (jump or profession). This seems to work in my mind. Characters getting a few more skills to expand their options, but nothing game breaking.
The fighter with four skills a level will certainly not break it. The barbarian with four skills a level doesn’t seem to suffer in comparison. I like that the number of skills per attribute is more equal. I guess in the final analysis, moving Disable Device to (Dex) makes sense from that point of view. While I haven’t changed it, I could certainly support it after this analysis.
Assuming the 4/6/8 skill system, what would you like to see for the skill list?
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That's a whole lotta readin' Tex, but I'm glad I stuck through it, because I agree with almost all of it.
Some tweaks;
'Gather Information' could also be a function of Bluff, Intimidate or even Knowledge (local), with different DCs, depending on the nature of the task, not just Diplomacy.
I kinda like that notion, that different skill-users could bring their particular talents to bear on a single task. Krusk goes out to a bar and beats up (Intimidate) some ne'er do wells to get his info, while Naull heads to the Temple of the God of Knowledge and digs into the books (Knowledge - local), and Jozan schmoozes with Gossipy-Joan-in-Accounting-and-Tithes (Diplomacy), while Kerwyn tricks (Bluff) some 'off-duty' guardsmen into spilling some beans over a cuppa.
While you seem to lean towards combining Spellcraft and Knowledge (arcane), I'd like to keep them seperate, and perhaps consider combining Use Magic Device into a function of either skill, rather than a skill itself. A spellcaster with Spellcraft might well know tricks from their own familiarity with arcane rules to be able to 'fool' a magic item that doesn't use their magic type, while a Rogue-ish sort who has read some books 'above his grade level' might know a few backhanded tricks using Knowledge (arcane) to do the same thing (at a higher DC, perhaps).
Fly creates precedent for this as well. Fly is a skill that's really only relevant to flying people, and Spellcraft could be a skill that's really only relevant to spellcasters. OTOH, 'fly' could just be a function of Acrobatics for those who can fly. That would be amusing, a Wizard casting Overland Flight on himself and the party Rogue, only to have the party Rogue hooping and hollering, flying rings around the Wizard, who moves at a more stately pace, due to his lack of natural athleticism...
With a 4/6/8 model (or even a 4/6 model), just combining Hide + Move Silently, Listen + Spot, Disable Device + Open Locks (Int based, IMO) and Balance + Tumble, while folding Gather Information and Use Rope into other skills, could work pretty well, IMO. Those currently saddled with 2 sp/l would be greatly improved from both the extra 2 sp and the consolidation, and the rest would make out like bandits with their 6 or 8 sp. I'd be likely to have everyone but the Bard and Rogue drop to 4 sp and have the Bard & Rogue* get 6 sp, and they'd still come out ahead after consolidation, in most cases!
*and Expert, Factotum, Savant and / or Archivist or whatever. Skill-monkeys get 6+Int, everyone else gets 4+Int.
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(Some quick thoughts only, because I'm in a hurry...)
Appraise - Definitely agree with you about being a weird skill for identifying magical items. IMO Knowledge (Arcana) would be a far more logical skill for that, and it would also increase its usefulness (I've always felt it's been "overshadowed" by Spellcraft). I would also like that Craft would enable you to appraise items related to your skill -- at least non-magical and non-masterwork items.
Concentration - Although I agree with you that it should not be merged into Spellcraft, I don't see how WIS-based skills like Autohypnosis (e.g. "photographic" memorization) would work based on CON.
Decipher Script - I think it should be part of Linguistics, which I like better than Speak Language. You see, Decipher Script always felt odd -- you could decipher weird Abyssal runes without ever having even heard about the language? I wouldn't mind seeing Forgery removed from Linguistics, though.
Fly - I disagree. It's an odd skill that is going to be used by a minority of characters only, so I can't understand why it's not being included as one potential use for Acrobatics (i.e. "Any character who has the ability to fly can also use his Acrobatics skill...").
Knowledge - I personally think your list has too few sub-skills, and I would not cut them at all -- in fact, I'd add Knowledge (Tactics) to the 3.5 list, perhaps also Knowledge (Astrology).
I agree with most of your combinations, albeit with minor preferrential nitpicks not worth mentioning. I disagree with your analysis of the wizard, however. With 15 skills/level, what's to keep a player from putting max ranks into, say, Concentration and Spellcraft (to do the wizard thing); and also into Climb, Acrobatics, Disable Device, Sleight of Hand, Bluff, Perception, Search, Stealth (to be, in essence, a maxed-out rogue); and also into Jump, Ride, and Swim (to be able to do everything the fighter can do); and still have two skills left over? Granted, his lack of a +3 "in-class" modifier ameliorates this a wee bit, and he probably has a low Str, but we're still looking at a 7th level wizard who can potentially outperform a 4th level rogue in terms of skills use. Is that the goal?
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@Set -
I agree. I think that Gather Information could fit in any of those, and making it a function of all of them works. It does mean repeating some text in the main book, but I guess that would be a small price to pay for a system that works well.
@Kirth - The 15 skills/level for the wizard only really works at 20th level. Assuming a 20 Intelligence (which should be hard to start with, but, well, it will happen) we're talking 7 skills to start with. Now, eventually that Int will go up. Having a 30 Inherent Intelligence seems like it would be hard to get, but since it COULD happen, I did want to look at a worst case scenario. Since it probably means that the wizard is a vampire, having ranks in sneak and such probably doesn't bother me that much.
If the wizard chooses to put his skill points in everything other than knowledge skills, yeah, I guess that would seem wierd. But, since it will usually fit the concept better to put the ranks there and it mechancially makes sense (free +3 bonus), I think the 'wierd' wizards will be unusual, and since I can imagine having someone explain why, I'm good with that.
There has been a lot of discussion over what kind of wizard Gandalf was, since he didn't cast a lot of spells. But he sure did do a lot of Riding. Imagining a wizard that eventually got to the equivalent of 15 skills is a little scary, but I don't think it is so scary that we can't give wizards 4+Int skill points. Sure, they're going to have more skills than most other classes. But giving them the fewest skill points even though they spend the most time studying seems strange. So, it is an 'oddity' that I'm willing to accept. It isn't much worse than a rogue that begins with a +5 Int and begins with 13 skills. I don't think the class needs to be built to 'limit' the most broken build, since most people won't have a build like that. Too many skills can get ugly, but I'm mostly in favor of making the system reward players being smart, but mostly letting players do what seems to make the most sense to them.
Imagining a wizard that eventually got to the equivalent of 15 skills is a little scary, but I don't think it is so scary that we can't give wizards 4+Int skill points. Sure, they're going to have more skills than most other classes.
I honestly don't know. Having read John Bellairs' The Face in the Frost (described by Gygax as one of the foundations of the game, in terms of literature), well, the wizards were REALLY bad at anything except wizardry. The same is true of the excellent Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrel, which reminds me more than a bit of Bellairs' earlier work. But literary precedent probably isn't the point here.
I would suggest that if anyone likes their wizards to out-skill the rogues, that's fine for them; houserule them 4 points/level without hesitation. But if you make that the official rule, then all of a sudden the wizards in Paizo adventures are all going to be tumbling past the PCs to get into better position to cast spells -- not just one, but all of them once people see what an effective tactic that is -- and that kind of ruins things for me. Personally, I'd rather see a few PCs get more skill points (by individual DM declaration) than to see the whole game altered to accommodate the new standard.
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Assuming the 4/6/8 skill system, what would you like to see for the skill list?
Acrobatics (Dex) = Balance + Tumble + Escape Artist, no Jump
Appraise (Int)Athletics (Str) = Run + Jump + Climb, no Swim
Craft (Wis)
* Craft (forgery) = Forgery
Deception (Cha) = Bluff + Gather Information, no Disguise, no Forgery, no Sense Motive
Diplomacy (Cha) = Diplomacy + Gather Information
Discipline (Wis) = Concentration +
Disguise (Cha) = Disguise + imitate sounds/voices
Fly (Dex)
Handle Animal (Cha)
Heal (Wis)
Intimidate (Str) = Intimidate + Gather Information
Knowledge (Int)
*Knowledge (arcana)
*Knowledge (history & culture)
*Knowledge (linguistics) = Decipher Script, no Read/Write/Speak Language
*Knowledge (local/regional)
*Knowledge (nature)
*Knowledge (nobility & politics)
*Knowledge (religion)
*Knowledge (trade)
*Knowledge (underworld) - as in 'criminal,' not 'land of the dead'
*Knowledge (warfare)
Open Locks (Dex)
Perception (Wis) = no Search
Perform (Cha)
Profession (Int)
Ride (Dex)
Search (Int)
Sense Ruse (Wis) = Sense Motive
Sneak (Dex) = Stealth
Spellcraft (Int) = Spellcraft, no Concentration
Survival (Wis)
Swim (Str)
Thievery (Dex) = Sleight of Hand +
Use/Disable Magical Device (Cha) = Use Magic Device + magical traps
Use/Disable Mechanical Device (Int) = Disable Device - magical traps, no Open Locks
36 skills (not counting Craft (forgery)) - 3 Str, 6 Dex, 0 Con, 15 Int counting each Knowledge, 6 w/ Knowledges lumped, 6 Wis, 6 Cha
Explanations (these are largely pasted over from other threads):
Note: If it's not explained here it works just like in Pathfinder.
Acrobatics (Dex) = Balance + Tumble + Escape Artist, no Jump
What is Escape Artist used for? To slip bonds and squeeze into tight places, to wriggle. And who can do that better than an acrobat?
Athletics (Str) = Run + Jump + Climb, no Swim
Jump and Climb could absolutely be separate but I usually see characters take both or neither. It would help out low-skill Str classes like fighters to combine them. For every 5 ranks of Athletics you could also add 5' to your movement when running.
Craft (Wis)
[See my description of Profession first.] For me, Craft isn't about a trade; that's Profession. Craft is about making specific items. Profession (blacksmith) covers all the regular blacksmithing stuff but he'd need Craft (bells) or Craft (blades) because those are unusual things for a blacksmith. A person with Profession (weaponsmith) wouldn't need Craft (blades) but he might need Craft (horseshoes). For adventures it would be a way to make or repair certain items without needing to become a professional. A soldier can fix his sword without being a blacksmith, a wizard can carve a wand without being a carpenter, etc. Forgeries strike me as one of these unusual creations. Also change Craft to Wisdom because so much of it is intuitive rather than knowledge-based.
Deception (Cha) = Bluff + Gather Information, no Disguise, no Forgery, no Sense Motive
Deception (I like the name) would work for lying, feinting, sending secret messages, etc. Sense Motive would remain separate skill and Forgery would become Craft (forgery). Because a person could reasonably use deception to wander around town and ask questions, pretending to be someone they're not or just generally being sly, I would add Gather Information skills to Deception without taking it away from Diplomacy.
Diplomacy (Cha) = Diplomacy + Gather Information
Both function as in Pathfinder Alpha 1, however, being diplomatic isn't the only way to gather information. I would add Gather Information to Deception and Intimidate as well.
Discipline (Wis) = Concentration + new stuff
This would almost be like Will save, the skill. It could represent training or just personal focus. There is a role for Concentration outside of Spellcraft; a skillful mage could still balk under pressure. And rogues or anyone else trying to perform a skill in combat or under pressure should still have to see if their concentration holds. I'd love a trance-like mechanic where a fighter could get 'in the zone' and pick up some benefits, like a +1 to hit or unlock some ability. Finally, Discipline would be a great skill for NPCs to help determine when they break ranks and run or accept brides or do something else against their orders.
Disguise (Cha) = Disguise + imitate sounds/voices
Add the ability to imitate sounds and voices.
Fly (Dex)
Most people will never use this so why should it bother them to keep it separate? Different forms of locomotion should be kept separate.
Intimidate (Str) = Intimidate + Gather Information
First, change Intimidate to a Str skill; we already have several ways to influence people's behavior based on Cha, now giving someone else a way to influence people. Intimidation is a nice fit for ugly, uncharismatic brutes. I would also add a feat called "Clever Interrogator" that gives a +2 bonus and allows characters to use Int instead of Str (somewhat similar to Intimidating Prowess in Alpha 1). Second, because a person could reasonably use intimidation to wander around town and ask questions, threatening folks or just being a bully, I would add the Gather Information skills to Intimidate without taking it away from Diplomacy.
Knowledge (Int) = Knowledge + Decipher Script
I like the knowledge versus technical skills relationship with Knowledge (arcana) and Spellcraft. I would assume clerics have something similar between Knowledge (religion) and Spellcraft. Rogues would get Knowledge (underworld) and fighters would get Knowledge (warfare).
Knowledge (trade) would include finding trade routes, knowing currencies and exchange rates, customs information, principal products of regions, etc.
Instead of Decipher Script as a separate skill or part of Linguistics, just make Knowledge (linguistics) that helps characters identify unknown languages, know who speaks them, and try to decipher them.
For Knowledge (local/regional), you'd have to say what area was, usually a town or city for local, or country for a region.
Knowledge (architecture & engineering) is unnecessary because, other than knowing how to destroying buildings (which is now (warfare)), what do folks really use this for? Knowledge (dungeoneering) is too easy, kinda' like Profession (adventurer). Instead of Knowledge (geography), general knowledge about how geography works would use (nature) and specific features would use (local/regional). Finally, Knowledge (the planes) shouldn't be available to low-level characters anyway, so I'd make it high DC (30+) (arcana) and (religion) information.
Open Locks (Dex)
This is one of rogues' signature skills. With all those skill points, rogues can afford to spend points on both Disable Device and Open Locks. And if someone is cross-classing to get these skills, I don't want them getting both abilities so cheaply. But I suppose I can live with it merged into Disable Device :(
Perception (Wis) = no Search
I would a little intuition to Perception. I think there's room for a bit of 6th sense, kind of a tingling Spider-sense that's a little DM initiated ("She tells you her story - roll a d20 - but you get the feeling she's leaving something out.").
Profession (Int or maybe Wis?)
To a certain degree, you could just Profession everything and call it a day; Profession (fighter), Profession (cleric), Profession (wizard), etc. For the adventuring classes, it's worth it to separate out their individual skills, but for a farmer or a baker, it's probably not worth it. One skill, Profession (farmer), contains all the knowledge and the skills needed for a farmer to do whatever farmers do. Nothing else is really needed unless the farmer is good at some un-farmerly things. So maybe Profession stays really general - "everything a __ knows and can do" - and is a non-class skill for everyone except Experts (Commoners could take profession ranks, but would be slowed way down, as they should be). Because it's mostly non-adventurey stuff, PCs could take a few ranks for flavor, but it wouldn't really help them much in a dungeon.
Search (Int)
I strongly believe Search needs to stay separate from Perception. Perception seems to me to be mostly passive, what characters notice. But Search is active, "I search the room for clues," or "I search the library for a book on demons." It is also based on Int. A smart person can search well, even if she isn't particularly perceptive, because she can figure out clues and patterns and recognize when things are out of place.
Sense Ruse (Wis) = Sense Motive
I would rename it "Sense Ruse" because it doesn't just deal with motives anymore; it counters lies and bluffs and disguises, etc. This is too useful a skill to lump in with Perception or Deception, and not everyone who is good at those things is going to be good at spotting lies or deceit.
Sneak (Dex) = Stealth
Spellcraft (Int) = Spellcraft, no Concentration
I would keep Concentration separate.
Survival (Wis)
My only other thought is that it would be interesting to see different environments taken into consideration in Survival. Surviving in the arctic is different than surviving in the desert. Maybe with each rank a character could add an environment to their list. They take a -5 penalty when trying to use their survival skills in an unknown environment (kind of like the -5 penalty you take for trying to ride an unsuitable mount).
Swim (Str)
Not all athletes are swimmers and not all swimmers are athletes. Different forms of locomotion should be kept separate.
Thievery (Dex) = Sleight of Hand +
I actually like the Theft skill for Alpha 1 because it is like the rogue's Spellcraft. No Open Locks but picking pockets, palming small objects, shell games, hiding things on you person, legerdemain, etc.
Use/Disable Magical Device (Cha) = Use Magic Device + magical traps
I added the word "Disable" because it seems like in many adventures, PCs have to shut down the eldritch device before it's too late. Mostly they use magic stuff, but sometimes they want to sabotage it as well. If a rogue were trying to disable a magical trap, I would make them use this skill instead of the regular Disable Device. Even if the word "Disable"? isn't in the skill title, I think a bit about disabling in the skill description would be nice. Plus, "Use/Disable" goes nicely with the next one ...
Use/Disable Mechanical Device (Int) = Disable Device - magical traps, no Open Locks
Characters may run into enough complex mechanical devices that a skill check would be useful. Mostly this is a way to expand Disable Device into something more than just foiling traps without adding Open Locks. It includes foiling traps, but also sabotaging clockworks and rigging non-magical machines to malfunction. As noted above in Use/Disable Magical Device, I would pull disabling magical traps out of here and add it there.
Finally, learning languages. Personally, I'd love to see different languages and dialects get DCs. Barring that, I think learning languages should be pulled out of skills entirely. Characters already have opportunities to learn languages at level one with their Int bonus and if they increase their Int as they advance in levels, they can add more. Maybe make learning new language a class option for bards and rogues. And if people really want to learn a new language, make each language a feat. Pathfinder has a lot more feats, so it would be fair to use one or two on languages. Feats are a lot closer to the level of commitment required to learn a language than 1 skill point.
Any system that gets rid of Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Knowledge (Nobility) is a system which I would support. Those Knowledges annoy the crap out of me.
Especially Dungeoneering. What does identifying a Sky Bleeder have to do with Cave Survival?
-Frank
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On Appraise:
If the idea is that you should be able to adequately assess the value of something, how the heck are you going to be able to do that without being able to identify magical items? In the words of the SRD, "A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick." How are you going to assess the value of a stick, if you don't know that it's a wand?
You bascially have two options, but only one of them makes taking the skill worth actual points. 1) You say, "You cannot use the Appraise skill to assess the value of magical item until you have identified that item's properties." 2) You say, "You can use the Appraise skill to identify a magical item's properties and then assess their value."
Option 1 makes sense, but is also status quo ante. How many people have you seen put points in Appraise before Pathfinder?
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How many people have you seen put points in Appraise before Pathfinder?
I like the idea of using Appraise to asses treasure. Especially if characters are in a hurry, they're not going to count every coin and closely inspect every weapon. Appraise allows character to quick get an idea of what is worth grabbing and what isn't. Same with a rogue who makes a quick grab.
How many people have you seen put points in Appraise before Pathfinder?
I played in a campaign where EVERY character took ranks, and tried to "out-do" each other with it:
PC 1: "This appears to be a Baklunish gold sovereign."
PC 2: "Hmmm, a bit tarnished, and the milling is off. Large circulation lot, late in the empire, with a poor resale value."
PC 3: "This particular coin has the date reversed, though; it's a collector's item worth 100 GP on that basis alone."
I could see that annoying the hell out of a "hack-'n'-loot" group, but we really got a kick out of it.
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How many people have you seen put points in Appraise before Pathfinder?
The Wizard in my current game picked a Raven familiar just for the bonus to Appraise (which he had to buy cross-class).
Our group, whether I'm playing or DMing, is notoriously cheap, and the idea of selling a 500 gp item of treasure for 25 gp because someone blew an Appraise check makes us crazy-mad!
...I also like allowing a Concentration check to allow the use of another skill that normally provokes an attack of opportunity without that normal attack. For example, the battlefield medic will take Concentration to use the Heal skill in a threatened square without provoking an attack himself. In this sense, it would not be about ‘focusing on the task at hand’ but splitting your focus – doing what is necessary without dropping your attention from the rest of the battlefield. I’ve seen plenty of examples in movies – the medic is working, but seeing movement drops down, fires a couple of rifle rounds, then resumes work.
D20 Modern does something similar. From the d20 modern SRD:
Concentration (Con)
Check: A character makes a Concentration check whenever he or she may potentially be distracted while engaged in some action that requires his or her full attention (such as making a Disable Device or Treat Injury check). Situations such as taking damage, working in a bouncing vehicle, or dealing with severe weather can require a character to make a Concentration check. If the Concentration check succeeds, the character may continue with the action. If the Concentration check fails, the action automatically fails (with the appropriate ramifications, if any), and the action is wasted.
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On Appraise:
If the idea is that you should be able to adequately assess the value of something, how the heck are you going to be able to do that without being able to identify magical items? In the words of the SRD, "A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick." How are you going to assess the value of a stick, if you don't know that it's a wand?You bascially have two options, but only one of them makes taking the skill worth actual points. 1) You say, "You cannot use the Appraise skill to assess the value of magical item until you have identified that item's properties." 2) You say, "You can use the Appraise skill to identify a magical item's properties and then assess their value."
Option 1 makes sense, but is also status quo ante. How many people have you seen put points in Appraise before Pathfinder?
In my example, I use Appraise not as the ability to determine an items value, but the ability to GET the item's value when trying to sell it. Sure, some people think that it should be a Diplomacy check, which I think is the status quo. I think that just telling the players 'you find a silver chalice worth 10 gp, a filigreed porcelain plate worth 90 gp and 15 rubies worth 90 gp each' is easier than telling them what they find. Because a month from now, when they're in town, they'll say 'hey, what was that porcelain plate we found worth?' And you'll say, 'huh? Where did you find it?' And they'll say 'I don't remember. Was it when we fought the dragon? Maybe the harpy had it in her cave?' And you're stuck looking up your notes for an hour or just saying 'it's worth 10 gp'.
I think that's a little unfair since the value was higher, even though you didn't tell them that. So, what I'm saying is tell the players what the item is worth, but make sure that they use appraise to get that value. If they can't make the proper appraise DC, they get a fraction of the item's value. If they exceed the DC by enough, maybe they can get 75% of the value.
And of course they wouldn't be able to appraise a magical item without identifying it. I think that Spellcraft should work for that, though (and Spellcraft without Concentration). How does a salt merchant figure out that the item they're offering in trade is really a magic sword worth 8,000 gp. It only looks like a masterwork longsword worth 315. The extra value comes from enchantments. If you can't even detect magic, you shouldn't 'appraise' the item for more than the 315. Unless, of course, the players actually found a 'art' sword that included a jeweled pommel and an ivory hilt, for instance.
@Thraxus - Cool. I don't play d20 Modern, but that seems like a good fit with what I'm trying to say.
This is a minor point, but in further defense of the reduced list of Knowledge skills:
I was at first a little leery about folding (planes) into (religion), though it makes sense in most cases. As a long-time fan of Planescape and related such things, I worried that you might lose the feel of planar adventuring. After all, characters in settings like that probably didn't read about the planes in religious texts - they've actually *been there*.
But this actually isn't a problem, because DDMW's proposed Knowledge (regional) is flexible enough to cover it. If you want a character who's traveled the planes and learned about them through practical experience rather than theoretical teachings, give him some ranks in Knowledge (regional - the Abyss) and Knowledge (regional - Arborea), and so on. I think this actually captures the feel even better than straight Knowledge (planes); a character may have been to many planes, but he's unlikely to have equal knowledge of all of them, and he might not have bothered to learn about certain ones at all.
Wouldn't surprise me if I was the only one worried about this, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
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Wouldn't surprise me if I was the only one worried about this, but I thought it was worth mentioning.
No, I agree. Planescape is a pretty special case because, as you said, people have been to the planes. In most campaigns though, until pretty high levels, all anyone is going to know about the planes is what they learn from religion or maybe studying magic. Religion is going to be concerned with cosmology, who goes where when they die, who opposes whom, etc., and arcana with who lives where so they can summon them, and then what are their strengths and weaknesses. Questions like "Is lake water safe to drink in the Abyss" or "How far is it from Nessus to Dis" are just really, REALLY specialized Knowledge (regional) checks. Good call.
I have been following much of the discussion on skills and hope to find some time to offer something more significant in the future, however, I would like to toss out the following thought for now.
I think Search needs to stay its own skill, separate from what is now called Perception. However, I also like the racial bonuses to types of Perception checks. To that end, I think the following two skills would be an elegant solution:
Perception - Passive (WIS)
This basically covers the 3.5 Listen and Spot.
Anytime the DM asks for a Perception check, it is implied it is passive.
Perception - Active (INT)
This basically covers the 3.5 Search skill. However, it would also apply to things like, carefully tasting food and actively trying to determine if it is poisoned (if that character happened to be a dwarf, his racial bonus to taste basted Perception checks would apply). Anytime a player decides to make a Perception check, it is implied it is active.
Alternatively, the skills could be named Awareness and Perception, respectively, or some such nonsense.
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I think Search needs to stay its own skill, separate from what is now called Perception. However, I also like the racial bonuses to types of Perception checks.
Or maybe racial bonuses could apply to both Search and Perception if the particularly acute sense is being used.
Your Perception- passive and Peception- active is absolutely accurate but 1) two things with the same/similar names may cause confusion (a la Polymorph and Polymorph Other) and 2)there is some value to keeping skill names consistent from 3.5 to Pathfinder even if the 3.5 names are less than perfect (I fall into this trap all the time - "Oh, this would be so much better if it were only called _ ." Thanksfully, people just seem to ignore me.).
But I really like your basic premise.
4+ Skill Points: barbarian, cleric, druid, fighter, paladin, sorcerer, wizard
6+ Skill Points: bard, monk, ranger
8+ Skill Points: rogue
Skill Consolidations/Additions:
Acrobatics= Balance + Jump + Tumble (+ Fly for fliers)
Appraise- can be used in conjuction with detect magic and Knowledge (Arcana) to identify the properties of magic items (use the worse of the two skills for the check)
Deception= Bluff + Disguise
Diplomacy= Diplomacy + Gather Information
Legerdemain= Escape Artist + Sleight of Hand
Linguistics= Decipher Script + Forgery; if not literate in the language, then only the most basic information (the language and a couple words) can be gained
Mechanics= Disable Device + Open Lock
Perception= Listen + Search + Spot
Speak Language- make this a class skill for all classes with two levels of ability (one point for basic and two points for fluent) plus literacy (one point for literacy); all characters (except barbarians) are literate in their starting languages
Spellcraft= Concentration + Spellcraft
Stealth= Hide + Move Silently
Is the above post like a vote? I ask because I see what you're saying, but I'm missing the context. Why do you think that it should be that way?
It's an answer to the thread title: "Assuming a 4/6/8 Skill Point system, what skill list would you like to see?"
Class Skill Lists:
Barbarian- Acrobatics, Climb, Craft (Any), Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (History; to include tribal myths and legends), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Ride, Speak Language, Survival, Swim
Bard- Acrobatics, Appraise, Climb, Craft (Any), Deception, Diplomacy, Knowledge (Any), Legerdemain, Linguistics, Perception, Perform (Any), Profession (Any), Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Stealth, Use Magic Device
Cleric- Appraise, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Heal, Knowledge (Arcana), Knowledge (History), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Linguistics, Perform (Chant), Profession (Any), Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft
Druid- Climb, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Knowledge (Religion), Perception, Profession (Any), Ride, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Survival, Swim
Fighter- Climb, Craft (Any), Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Engineering), Knowledge (Nobility), Profession (Any), Ride, Speak Language, Survival, Swim
Monk- Acrobatics, Climb, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Any), Legerdemain, Linguistics, Perception, Profession (Any), Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Stealth, Swim
Paladin- Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Planes), Knowledge (Religion), Profession (Any), Ride, Sense Motive, Speak Language, Spellcraft
Ranger- Climb, Craft (Any), Handle Animal, Heal, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Geography), Knowledge (Local), Knowledge (Nature), Perception, Profession (Any), Ride, Speak Language, Spellcraft, Stealth, Survival, Swim
Rogue- Acrobatics, Appraise, Climb, Craft (Any), Deception, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Knowledge (Local), Legerdemain, Linguistics, Mechanics, Perception, Perform (Any), Profession (Any), Sense Motive, Speak Language, Stealth, Swim, Use Magic Device
Sorcerer*- Appraise, Craft (Any), Diplomacy, Intimidate, Knowledge (Arcana), Profession (Any), Speak Language, Spellcraft, Use Magical Device
Wizard- Appraise, Craft (Any), Knowledge (Any), Linguistics, Profession (Any), Speak Language, Spellcraft
*: Sorcerers gain an additional class skill based on bloodline (Aberrant- Perception, Abyssal- Legerdemain, Arcane- Linguistics, Celestial- Knowledge (Religion), Destined- Knowledge (History), Draconic- Acrobatics, Elemental- Knowledge (Planes), Fey- Knowledge (Nature), Infernal- Deception, Undead- Stealth)
Reasoning:
3.5 PHB classes breakdown into three main categories: caster (CL = class level; bard (also expert), cleric, druid, sorcerer, wizard), expert (6+ Skill Points; bard (also caster), ranger (also warrior), rogue), and warrior (+1 BAB per level; barbarian, fighter, paladin, ranger (also expert)). Some classes have the ability to function in two categories well and/or have some ability in other categories. The 3.5 monk is the exception that fits none of the categories well (which can easily be fixed by giving them 6+ Skill Points, placing them in the expert category). By increasing the minimum class skill points to 4+ and consolidating some skills, all classes can afford to invest in skills to fit a character concept without "crippling" their central function.
Acrobatics- could also be called Gymnastics; all three skills are closely related; fliers would use this skill for flying maneuvers since many of the techniques (Balance and Tumble especially) would apply
Appraise- a knowledge of magical theory is important to determine magical function; likewise, being able to determine materials and crafting techniques is important; if you know the theory but can't tell brass from bronze or garnets from rubies (or if you can tell the difference but don't know the theory), you're probably not going to make the correct determination
Deception- convincing others through acting
Diplomacy- etiquitte, negotiation, persuasion, social networking
Legerdemain- manipulating small objects
Linguistics- ability with alphabets, codes, cyphers, and writing techniques
Mechanics- ability with mechanical devices
Perception- ability to notice something
Speak Language- there should be some difference between not knowing a language and being fully fluent in it; likewise, speaking and reading are the same; given the increase in minimum skill points and the skill consolidations, three skill points for full fluency and literacy in a language shouldn't be excessive
Spellcraft- instead of ignoring a blow through meditation (Concentration), spellcasters keep control of the half-formed magic (Spellcraft)
Stealth- sneaking around in general
