Your party isn't running around with protect evil on at all times?
Protection from evil screws the main tactics for a ton of monsters, why is everyone trying to dominate lol
Considering the duration, Protection from Evil is difficult to keep up 100% of the time. Magic Circle against Evil would be more feasible for the usual 15 minute adventuring day, but at level 7 spell slots are still limited.
It'll be viable later on. Also possible is if it's something you can make a potion of (I'm not sure if it is, the potion list is... convoluted and should be scrapped and redone).
Probably, but nobody in the group has it (or even looked more than cursorily at story feats).
From what I have seen, you can count on magic circle vs evil being up at all times. My cleric PC is looking at the mythic ability to make it permanent. And he has eldritch breach so the odds of summoned creatures or possessions near him being successful are very slim.
And I alter the tactics blocks often enough, unless there is a good story reason to keep it.
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So Magnuskn, I am quite curious, how strongly do the mystic abilities of your player characters affect the game at this point? And which abilities are the most effective?
After my group (3 players present…) just managed to almost kill an Ulkreth (CR15!) … at level level 6 / tier 1 … yeah there are some synergies.
So far the most effective ability is Wild Arcana for the two arcane casters, since it allow ultimate flexibility. My guys haven't really put the deep thought into it that they'd had to to get the really good combinations, I guess.
I agree that Wild Arcana (and the hierophant ability) are the most powerful. They seem to add much more than the other path abilities, although the fighter has gotten a lot of use out of fleet charge.
There was no way my PCs could have taken an Ulkreth at 6th level. Now they could easily at level 9/3 but that's a pretty simple creature.
Session of February 11th 2014:
A bit of a tedious session. Five players in attendance, with the sorcerer player missing, due to having to attend to a client urgently. Some players had difficulties deciding on their second tier ability, there were phone calls interrupting the session three times and then the players had problems coming up with a coherent plant to take out the catapults on the four towers.
When they finally got to it, it went quite swimmingly for them. Using a combination of stealth, invisibility and flying, they got the drop on one tower-guarding Brimorak, dispatching it before it could even act. Since it was one of the two Brimoraks in the two frontal towers, the other guard in the directly opposing towers saw it happen and sent off a fireball to alert the others. Two rounds later four Brimoraks (only one summon worked) ported into the already cleared tower. After three fireballs and some melee work on the Barbarian (who took 100 points of damage total from all those sources) the four were dispatched quite handily. I used the given number of Brimoraks, but with the advanced template. I had hoped for a few more successful summons, but at least the player playing the barbarian felt the pressure. He really needs to work on his AC.
The army of the PC's had already marched up to the bridge which was liberated two sessions ago and the time was up for the final mass battle. All in all, it went well for the paladin army from Kenabres. For the freed mercenaries... not so much. While the opposing armies were ultimately wiped out to the last man/demon, the mercenary crusaders also took damage far in excess of their meager HP (-11 HP) and thus were considered completely wiped out. In-game, I had them heroically rescue their commander, an embattled Irabeth who had charged into the middle of the enemy formation.
Next week, the party is going into Citadel Drezen, accompanied by Irabeth and Nurah. Eh-heh-heh-heh. :D
Mythic power used: About four, between the Barbarian, Cleric, Ranger and Paladin. The cleric now has the Abundant Casting archmage path ability and used it to cast Bestow Curse on two Brimoraks. Only one didn't save, but that one sat out the entire combat, being unable to roll under a 51 on a d100. ^^
The two arcane casters had rolled middling on their daily 1d4 and so they tried to conserve their mythic power points. At this moment, recovering 1d4 points per day still works out well enough, but later in the campaign, when they have something like 7-8 mythic power total, having this limited point recovery will pretty surely result in some problems. Looking forward to it. ;)
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In book 3, my group's cleric ended up taking the additional mythic power feat, plus for his path took additional feat to get more power.
He's the one that's been feeling the biggest burn as he's been using a LOT of mythic healing between book 2/3. (I rolled a carnivorous crystal for the characters to play with as they were leaving Delemere's tomb. Now they're really paranoid.)
Book 3 really works into the 10 minute work day, so your 1d4 recuperation scheme will only slow down their regeneration as most days during downtime they won't have a need to burn off points faster than 3-4 days of resting will return.
I suggest whenever they go somewhere to reroll anything less than their current CR+2, or roll twice and throw both rolls at your party at once.
My party is actually just returning to Drezen after going to the fane, and I rolled retrievers. So I figure this is the perfect time to have a NPC kidnapped (going with Irabeth). I'm using Scorpion's Vang's retriever which actually has an actually usable Int, so it would have recruited a few extra retrievers.
As the retrievers are running, the PCs will run into a couple only an hour outside Drezen, but not with Irabeth. Once they kill them and get back, the city will be in a bit of dischord, with Anevia having had to use the Sword to summon a Planetar because of the attacks and Irabeth being taken.
Yeah, I predicted already for myself that book three would probably not test them that much in their mythic power throughput, but book four going forward the squeeze should be on.
Be careful with the kidnappings. IMO, kidnapping an important NPC will pressure the PC's to go rescueing them sooner than later, which means that they could skip getting Arueshalae for going after Vhang.
Yeah, all of the beginning fights in book three are too easy. They don't feel to be that important so I'm not worried yet but I do have my doubts about mythic play style going forward and whether the designers dramatically under estimated what mythic PCs can do.
And my group of PCs is much closer to the norm and I'm to the stage where everything seems to need an extra template and max hp.
Session of February 18th 2014:
Very combat heavy session, but nothing really exciting. Three combats, against two advanced Brimoraks, then six fiendish advanced Gargoyles and lastly against four half-orc Rangers, who were in an elevated position behind arrow slits. Only two mythic power were spent, one on Absorb Blow from the Cleric (Archmage/Guardian), the other one on a Surge to lift a portcullis by the Barbarian. The session ended with the party opening the door to the inner courtyard, where an advanced Vrock, a tiefling Sorcerer and two surviving half-orc Rangers will face them. The Sorcerer will probably have readied an action and start with a fireball to the entire party.
Observations:
- Absorb Blow, together with some minor energy resistance, can make fireballs quite trivial at this early level.
- Surge really helps a ton to make hard ability checks.
- The Barbarian and the Ranger have an AC problem, where they have invested very little into it and such are eating a ton of damage. Together with the pretty anemic healing capabilities of the party (the Cleric can only channel negative energy and they used up their single Wand of Cure Light Wounds in the chapel earlier in the module), this will make their daily explorations shorter than they'd ideally be.
Anyway, next week, after the courtyard fight, we will finally get some encounters which again include a bit of roleplaying potential. It's been a few weeks where we only had combat after combat. Next week, it's RP with combat. ^^
I have a similar problem with my Barbarian and Ranger. The barbarian pretty much gets hit everytime by every opponent, his only saving grace is the +3 hp/lvl from his trait. The Ranger is in the same boat, but at least she is ranged and not in the front lines that much. Since they are also the two PCs that do the most damage, they're going to be the first target for just about every intelligent enemy they face. I expect this to become a problem. Fast.
Is this due to player's decision, lack of appropriate treasure (as written) which a GM really needs to keep an eye on in every AP I've ever played or GMed in or is it lack of viable shopping outlets?
Player's decision, I'd say, since they didn't buy any AC enhancement items beyond basic armor at their last commercial opportunity.
Two-handed fighting and archery styles need to build for AC, otherwise this low AC is exactly what happens. The last two levels have been tight on new money and buying opportunities, too, but at least the former is about to change. Nonetheless, the players needs to focus on these aspects a bit more in their character builds, IMO.
Nice to hear some vulnerabilities are showing through with the mythic players. Are they feeling challenged at this point? Have they noticed the AC issue as well, or is that just your observation?
No, the issue has definitely been noted by the party. So far they complain that they are vastly under WBL (although they went out well over WBL from the last module and WBL allocation is always slanted towards the tail end of a module, as they well know after three AP's ^^), but I think the issue will resolve itself in a few weeks, when they get (again well over WBL) into module three, which has far more opportunities for crafting and buying of gear.
Eh, the thing I am not so hot on personally right now is that there are still about 18 encounters to go in Citadel Drezen and we only get through about 3 per week... that's still a lot of time on a module which mainly consists of constant fighting. I am somewhat tempted to cut out some of the minor stuff, but then again not having enough constant encounters is one of the factors which would make dungeon fighting too easy. I'll probably roll some of the minor stuff into one bigger encounter (and enhance it furthermore by applying advanced templates and the like).
Where are you getting this advanced template? I haven't seen it anywhere.
You can find it at the end of the Bestiaries. It's one of the simple templates.
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No, the issue has definitely been noted by the party. So far they complain that they are vastly under WBL (although they went out well over WBL from the last module and WBL allocation is always slanted towards the tail end of a module, as they well know after three AP's ^^), but I think the issue will resolve itself in a few weeks, when they get (again well over WBL) into module three, which has far more opportunities for crafting and buying of gear.
Eh, the thing I am not so hot on personally right now is that there are still about 18 encounters to go in Citadel Drezen and we only get through about 3 per week... that's still a lot of time on a module which mainly consists of constant fighting. I am somewhat tempted to cut out some of the minor stuff, but then again not having enough constant encounters is one of the factors which would make dungeon fighting too easy. I'll probably roll some of the minor stuff into one bigger encounter (and enhance it furthermore by applying advanced templates and the like).
Combining a number of encounters into one can be quite rewarding. I use the tactic quite a lot, especially since I really dislike encounters where the the enemies have no real chance to do significant damage (or even hit) the players.
If your players make extensive use of area of effect attacks, and/or the full number of enemies might overwhelm the group, let them enter combat after a number of rounds.If you come to the conclusion, that this makes it too easy for your group, remember that it is certainly within your purview to make changes to the dungeon. Adding secret doors, pits, arrow slits and other terrain advantages for the defenders can very effective - and “punish” groups that forget to scout properly.
You can find it at the end of the Bestiaries. It's one of the simple templates.
D'oh. Chalk that one up as missing the forest for the trees.
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You can find it at the end of the Bestiaries. It's one of the simple templates.D'oh. Chalk that one up as missing the forest for the trees.
And then the fiendish treants attack.
To try to wrench myself back on topic, when the Vrock screams and alerts most of the citadel, you can have the nabassu get interested after a few rounds to come in to try to get another growth point or two.
The barbarian girl likely isn't interested in playing though.
Fake Iomedae is literally right next door and might make for an interesting 'rescue'
Yes, there is a point in Sword of Valor where the party has several fights with little to no reward, my group noticed the same thing. This is balanced by several large treasure troves later on.
I guess it shows that it all depends on party composition, I have trouble hitting the PCs in my group with two of them reaching low to mid 30s in AC already. I'll be interesting in hearing how your group handles the RP aspects coming. My group surprised me, and then they payed for it later on.
Combining a number of encounters into one can be quite rewarding. I use the tactic quite a lot, especially since I really dislike encounters where the the enemies have no real chance to do significant damage (or even hit) the players.
If your players make extensive use of area of effect attacks, and/or the full number of enemies might overwhelm the group, let them enter combat after a number of rounds.If you come to the conclusion, that this makes it too easy for your group, remember that it is certainly within your purview to make changes to the dungeon. Adding secret doors, pits, arrow slits and other terrain advantages for the defenders can very effective - and “punish” groups that forget to scout properly.
Thanks, good advice, although I already use about all of it. After GM'ing for a decade now, and GM'ing 3.x at that, balancing at these still low levels is pretty automatic. It's the high levels which are still a challenge to get right, since the system breaks so much there.
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Thanks, good advice, although I already use about all of it. After GM'ing for a decade now, and GM'ing 3.x at that, balancing at these still low levels is pretty automatic. It's the high levels which are still a challenge to get right, since the system breaks so much there.Combining a number of encounters into one can be quite rewarding. I use the tactic quite a lot, especially since I really dislike encounters where the the enemies have no real chance to do significant damage (or even hit) the players.
If your players make extensive use of area of effect attacks, and/or the full number of enemies might overwhelm the group, let them enter combat after a number of rounds.If you come to the conclusion, that this makes it too easy for your group, remember that it is certainly within your purview to make changes to the dungeon. Adding secret doors, pits, arrow slits and other terrain advantages for the defenders can very effective - and “punish” groups that forget to scout properly.
Yeah, I suspected that you knew those tactics, but good advice is usually worth reiterating, it might be of benefit to someone reading this.
Regarding higher levels, I tend to cheat as much as I find necessary. To be honest since I tend to tweak the NPCs a bit, to make them a viable challenge (nothing I could not justify in game, like a couple of buffs like mage armor, ablative barrier, and resist energy) I sometimes have to weaken my NPCs or let them use suboptimal tactics.
I feel justified as long, as my players have fun, feel challenged and get the satisfaction of beating certain challenges with their own creativity.
Of course that requires some degree of verisimilitude but it has worked so far^^.
I've a suggestion that could make the gameplay more... interesting and dangerous. Give all the demons a free Feat - Dimensional Agility, and make Teleport a move-action. (For more powerful Demons, you can also give them Dimensional Assault and/or Dimensional Dervish.)
This way, they can use Teleport Without Error tactically to move around the battlefield. As the party would start using Dimensional Anchor, you'd probably have them use Dispel Magic against the Anchor.
The end result is demons who can't be boxed in and who will move in and attack vulnerable PCs like wizards and the like. And it forces PCs to adjust to new tactics and see the Demons as a greater threat.
Nah, I don't plan on changing the entire teleportation game around on them mid-campaign.
So use it on newer demons then, ones they've not encountered before. Or add it to boss-demons only. It's an escalation of power for the demons as the PCs themselves grow in power.
Demons already have flight or other forms of travel usually. Making their teleport more powerful wouldn't change too much.
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You could remove some of the combat and encounters and replace them with other challenges. Maybe some traps or other encounters.
Maybe offer the party a bit of moral dilemma, let them find a prisoner that gets tortured by the demons for fun. This could be a kidnapped paladin, a cultist/demon of a rival demon lord or maybe a captured devil (this one could be fun for your asmodean player).
Look, I am not going to change the entire teleportation mechanic around mid-campaign. Maybe for a new campaign which is heavy on teleporting monsters, but not mid-campaign. It's just not going to happen. If you like to see it, try it for your campaign.
As for changing out some of the scenarios in the citadel, I don't think that's strictly necessary. Following the first few fights (until the Vrock in the inner courtyard), there are a really good number of encounters which include roleplaying aspects. The slog until then just was a bit too long.
Which reminds me, I still need to get a Paizo-quality picture for Maranse Delaskru until next Tuesday. Ack.
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Which reminds me, I still need to get a Paizo-quality picture for Maranse Delaskru until next Tuesday. Ack.
I've suggested several times to use the image of Noble Scion from Paths of Prestige. You haven't said one way or another if that's a no go.
It's what I used for my online campaign, although the PCs waited around long enough that Staunton went looking for them, leaving the succubus to teleport out after he died.
<looks at his copy of the book>
Yeah, that'll do. Sorry, I must have overlooked your suggestion before.
True enough. :D
My party of six just killed the Chimera last time, fairly easily even though I bumped it up with the giant template. After finishing the siege, they entered the Citadel and killed the Vrock. That is where we finished for the night. We play 3 hours every two weeks, so I have to make every combat/encounter count. I am taking out some of the encounters to move things along, and will combine others - the Vrock did shriek so that is a good point that everyone left is on alert.
Similar to some other comments here, I have a barbarian that the monsters hit everytime but he has so many hit points and does so much damage that he is hard to put down. I also have an archer that never misses. Worried that the clerics will tire of support role. Most dangerous PC is the archmage due to his save or die spells with high DCs. My general strategy vs. the party is to make them make saves plus combining encounters. Interested in other ideas to keep them challenged.
At 6th or 7th level there shouldn't be any save or die spells:)
But in general I agree, my PCs are in the middle of Demon's Heresy and it is very hard to challenge them consistently. I'm pretty sure that CRs and APL breaks down sooner and harder with mythic play. I was hoping that Mythic Adventures would include a 'how to run or challenge your group' chapter.
But as time goes on you will see what strengths and weaknesses your group has and should play to those. I'm also cheating and having more NPCs start prebuffed rather than spending so much time to get there.
I found that grouping into larger combats made for a bigger bump in the road. Not to mention my dislike for an adventure where the guys in the next room waits patiently and refuse to enter combat because it would be unbalancing for the PC's.
I also had Staunton get another pair of minotaur guards and that fight included 4 babau demons, one from his glaive, 4 half-fiend minotaurs and Joran and Nurah. That made for an interesting fight, especially since the glaive babau's only task was to move up after Staunton had moved and attacked and teleport him out of full-attack range of the PC's.
Later I got annoyed by the demon's apparent lack of ranged attackers, so I reintroduced the Arrow Demon from 3.5. That helped wex the Wizard PC.
Unless you've houseruled it, demon's greater teleport is 'Self plus 50 lbs only'That made for an interesting fight, especially since the glaive babau's only task was to move up after Staunton had moved and attacked and teleport him out of full-attack range of the PC's.
Indeed I did, more to mess with my players than anything. I doubt it will occur again, so chalk it up to the blade summoning "special" babau demons.
At 6th or 7th level there shouldn't be any save or die spells:)
But in general I agree, my PCs are in the middle of Demon's Heresy and it is very hard to challenge them consistently. I'm pretty sure that CRs and APL breaks down sooner and harder with mythic play. I was hoping that Mythic Adventures would include a 'how to run or challenge your group' chapter.
But as time goes on you will see what strengths and weaknesses your group has and should play to those. I'm also cheating and having more NPCs start prebuffed rather than spending so much time to get there.
Archmage uses enchantment spells so I do try to use protection vs. good spells. Will make sure S Vhane is buffed and throw in 1 or 2 more fiendish minotaurs. Hopefully they can get some attacks of opportunity on the archer with their reach. I am not worrying too much about CRs being high but good to know others are punching things up as well.
Vahne has a deceptively good will save and can probably drop the archer or a mage in one round or at least scare them a lot, depending on his buffs. Don't over look the fact that he is very mobile and has reach. Don't forget about darkness, or bring in some brimoraks for their dispel magic ability.
That fight challenged my PCs a lot, its been the toughest of the AP.
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By the way. Perhaps among the most powerful spell in the game is not one you'd think of: Mythic Endure Elements.
Why?
Because any critter without Blindsight or Tremorsight can be blinded by Fog Cloud (or any such variant)... while anyone with Mythic Endure Elements can see right through fog, snow, sandstorms, or other such spells.
I just had this pulled on me in my Reign of Winter game. And literally the words out of my mouth were "oh dear God, what have I done?" as I'd strongly hinted for one player to take the mythic spells feat/path so they could have Endure Elements and not worry about snow reducing their movement or keeping their archer from firing. (I was truly annoyed with the constant snowfall problem in the first part of The Snows of Summer.)
Given the group would be level 5 or 6 when they become Mythic, one casting of Mythic Endure Elements would likely cover the entire party. And suddenly, spammed fog clouds and their like will cause significant hardships for your foes.
Just warning you guys.
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Fog is specifically NOT in this list of bypassed things from Mythic Endure Elements.
They're not slowed by snow, and ignore penalties on Perception checks and ranged weapon attacks from hail, rain, sleet, and snow.
Unlike the Goz Mask, which does specifically call out fog.