Mind Blank

[Twowlves]

So, I see the new version of Mind Blank no longer gives flat immunity to mind affecting effects, but indtead a flat +8 to saves. I can see why some felt the need to make this change, but as it stands now, this spell is just a beefed up Nondetection spell. If the designers absolutely must remove total immunity, at least please add in a line to the effect that Mind Blank allows a save against mind affecting and illusion spells (with +8 to save) even if the spell doesn't normally allow one. What do you think?

[K]

Twowlves wrote:

So, I see the new version of Mind Blank no longer gives flat immunity to mind affecting effects, but indtead a flat +8 to saves. I can see why some felt the need to make this change, but as it stands now, this spell is just a beefed up Nondetection spell. If the designers absolutely must remove total immunity, at least please add in a line to the effect that Mind Blank allows a save against mind affecting and illusion spells (with +8 to save) even if the spell doesn't normally allow one. What do you think?

Yeh, its gone from "thats spell we try to cast on everyone" to "that spell we don't cast."

Meh.

[Frank Trollman]

Considering that most mind affecting spells and effects are negated by the first level protection from evil, I dare say that the new mind blank will see play rarely. Only real use is in annoying PCs by frustrating them with divinations targeting the BBEG. And even then you could usually get the same effect by simply not telling them who the major villain was until the end.

-Frank

[Matthew Morris]

I'm going to agree, Personal Mind Blank was always on my psychic warrior's Must Have list.

If it is to be a +8, may I suggest the two following modifications?

1) Allows a save vs. all mind affecting, even if the spell doesn't normally allow a save.

2) The Mind Blanked character can make a save, as a free action, every round.

I understand the wanting to get rid of blanket immunities, but this would allow the spell to still be worth its punch.

[Thraxus]

This question has come up with the 3.5 version of mind blank before with my group. Does the phrase "protected from all devices and spells that gather information about a target through divination magic" apply to divination spells like see invisibility?

If it works like arcane eye then an invisible target cannot be detected by most spells (see invisibility and true seeing are both divination spells).

[Evil_Wizards]

Thraxus wrote:

This question has come up with the 3.5 version of mind blank before with my group. Does the phrase "protected from all devices and spells that gather information about a target through divination magic" apply to divination spells like see invisibility?

In the D&D3.0 FAQ, it says:

"Can someone using a discern location spell find someone using mind blank spell?
No. While the discern location spell description contains some pretty strong language about the spell’s ability to overcome effects that block scrying of divinations, the general rule in the D&D game favors defense over offense, so mind blank’s ability to block scrying and all forms of divination trumps discern location’s ability to penetrate such defenses.
Blocking spells of 7th level or less, however, are still ineffective against discern location."
(emphasis mine)

In the D&D3.5 FAQ, there's no such entry, however.

An eMail from the then-current sage says it doesn't block direct observation as See Invisibility, which is in contradiction the FAQ.

The FAQ was written by Skip Williams, don't know about the eMail - may also have been from his IMHO not so savvy successor Andy Collins (*cough* Polymorph and HD *cough*) or even the dreaded Customer Service Rules Roulette, so I'd put more weight on the published FAQ.

Here's a heated discussion:

http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17687&per page=40&pagenumber=1

I think the majority see Mind Blank as making you invisible to See Invisibility, True Seeing and all other Divinations. I agree with this. It's a strong effect, but that's what it says: Divination.

There's a lot of people seeing the effect to be more limited, and from a balance perspective, they may even be right.

[Thraxus]

Evil_Wizards wrote:

I think the majority see Mind Blank as making you invisible to See Invisibility, True Seeing and all other Divinations. I agree with this. It's a strong effect, but that's what it says: Divination.

I ruled it the same way when the discussion can up in my Age of Worms game. Mind Blank is a high level spell, so I am more willing to give it the benefit of the doubt.

Still, it would probably be good for Pathfinder to address this question in the spell's description.

[Swordslinger]

Frank Trollman wrote:

Considering that most mind affecting spells and effects are negated by the first level protection from evil, I dare say that the new mind blank will see play rarely. Only real use is in annoying PCs by frustrating them with divinations targeting the BBEG. And even then you could usually get the same effect by simply not telling them who the major villain was until the end.

Yeah seriously. I find it odd how Protection from Evil wasn't nerfed, yet they nerfed mind blank. So it's still okay for a 1st level spell to make you immune to anything an enchanter can throw at you, but it's not okay for an 8th level spell to do that.

[Aracase]

Mind Blank really should be changed back. This is the "Fighter Saver" spell. At the higher levels, when the party looses the fighter to a failed will save, this can really turn the tide of battle. The spell should be about hedging out any and all mind affecting spells with a cute little added bonus of blocking divinations.

[Jason C Scott]

I am always in favor of a change that removes immunities and grants a bonus to saves instead so in that regard I think that change to mind blank was a good one.

Divination mechanics could be cleaned up a great deal if we took the time and make them opposed checks between casters or allow saving throws vs all effects. Then divination and obscurement spells would grant bonuses and penalties to these checks and saving throws vs spells of their spell level or lower. Throwing around the words immunity and naming specific spells countered and not countered is not productive in the long term. In a world where new spells and abilities are constantly being added to the system these changes could save a lot of headaches. I would be quite surprised if the final release of pathfinder did not incorporate these kinds of changes.

As far as mind blank vs protection from evil go mind blank has a 24 hour duration making it useful as a daily protection spell. With protection from evils relatively short duration no one will have it always active and in place unless the power is granted by a magic item.