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After playtesting a few games under the Alpha rules - one thing is becoming painfully clear - the fact that jump skill is now dex based and not offered to warrior types if very frustrating!
I love what they're doing with the skill for the most part - but one of the most used aspects of Jump that I've ever seen is using it to clear obstacles (even creatures) during a charge manuever; typically performed by a fighter, barbarian or even a paladin.
I'm of the opinions that Jump should be strength based to begin with - its leg stength mostly that has those olypic jumps; even if it has to be dex based it should be offered as a class skill to the warriors.
As a group - its a favorite tactic of our players who have a good jump to leap into combat over the obstacles or other PCs. We're now having a helluva time trying to make this happen. I think this needs to be addressed and changed. Leaping/jumping into combat via charging brings images of the movie Troy. The feat in the Complete Warrior (leap attack) even stipulates, emphasizes and encourages jumping into combat.
It was sad to see that element stripped from the warrior types.
Robert
EDIT: I think Balance and Tumble are a perfect blend for acrobatics - but Jump should be un-annexed into it.
99% agreement.
My only qualifier is that I *am* strongly in favor of having some consolidated skills (to the point they were in Alpha 1). They've already broken apart some.
Can anyone think of a good name for a "Movement" skill (Climb/Jump/Swim [Str])
yeah, jump and balance together is problematic unless you start allowing people to use appropiate stat to the endeavor.
What i mean is... if the character is doing a running broad jump, that's definetly Str. If he is doing a pole vault, then you could argue the Dex. Having Dex for all jump related tests is odd.
However... placing swim in with jump and climb doesn't seem right either. Whould coastal fisherman (who should on average swim very well) automatically be able to climb as good as they swim?
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99% agreement.
My only qualifier is that I *am* strongly in favor of having some consolidated skills (to the point they were in Alpha 1). They've already broken apart some.
Can anyone think of a good name for a "Movement" skill (Climb/Jump/Swim [Str])
Athletics, yes.
I agree about the consolidation; and if that is the #1 key, then Acrobatics needs to be available to warriors - but then I think that's too much for them to have access to tumble and balance.
They HAVE consolidated quite a few. I think leaving Jump alone isn't too much of a bad thing - except perhaps mixing it in with climb - but not swim. Even mixing it with climb is not my first option either - climb, swim and fly are all forms of unusual movement; fly and swim definitely need to be seperate - but logic tells me if they are, then climb should be too; however if you MUST annex Jump in with something - climb makes the most sense IMO.
Robert
Although some consolidation is good, I strongly dislike the concept of an Athletics skill. Skills for movement modes should remain separate from one another.
Let's face it. The skills are mostly relevant for the HEROES.
And letting a hero climb, jump and swim very well at the same rate (making it one skill) is perfectly ok I think.
Non-heroic NPCs doesn't even need any stats except those few skill modifiers for the skills they use most of the time.
(Like Barter and Craft for a Smith/Shopkeeper, or something).
Actually, I don't care about npc levels if they aren't of any heroic class, and just asign the skill ranks as I see fit.
About Athletics: I can easily imagine a sailor who needs to climb(into the rig), jump(boarding maneuvers or something) and swim(no comment here). So why not giving him one skill to cover all.
EDIT: The point of having climb, jump and swim as three different skills is just "unfair" for classes like fighters, barbarians and rangers who were likly to excel in those field. BUT, if they had to put THREE of their few skill ranks into them, there wouldn't be any thing left.
Why on Earth would it be "too much" to let fighters have access to tumble/balance?
Why on Earth would it be "too much" to let fighters have access to tumble/balance?
Who said so?
Former track runner (long jump, triple jump) here. The shot put guys were incredibly strong, but could NOT jump. At all. Some flexibility is required (Dex), but aside from that the most important thing is running speed. Unfortunately, D&D has no mechanic to fine-tune that (does someone move at 31 ft. per round, vs. someone else at 28 ft.)? So, barring that, Dex seems fine, or at least just as "realistic" as Strength.
That said, Acrobatics should probably be a class skill for Fighters.
Maybe this is a nitpick, charging requires an unobstructed straight line - you can't use jump during a charge. And you can always move through a friendly PC, there's no reason to jump over them. Lastly, if you're using jump to get past an NPC, you're doing it wrong - that's a tumble check.
Given that the needed uses are not valid, I'm not sure it needs to be changed. Personally, I'm not going to ask for a jump check to get by a minor obstacle - a falled enemy, a log, etc. I would ask it for bigger obstacles - a low wall, jumping up onto a table - and those do seem DEX based.
I don't beleive an Athletics skill is the answer.
And I agree that placing acrobatics as a Fighter Class skill would be a good choice. Jump has always been a class skill before. Balance, sword play has a lot of balance to do with it and any heavy armor fighter who's tried to charge over slightly wet cobblestones will tell how much it sucks when he does nothing but land on his arse. Tumble, is combat orientated, so why wouldn't a fighter never learn that?
Why not have Jump be a part of both Athletics and Acrobatics? Then if a character chooses to advance both skills, give him some sort of synergy bonus, or access to some neat skill tricks, or something?
Maybe this is a nitpick, charging requires an unobstructed straight line - you can't use jump during a charge. And you can always move through a friendly PC, there's no reason to jump over them. Lastly, if you're using jump to get past an NPC, you're doing it wrong - that's a tumble check.
Given that the needed uses are not valid, I'm not sure it needs to be changed. Personally, I'm not going to ask for a jump check to get by a minor obstacle - a falled enemy, a log, etc. I would ask it for bigger obstacles - a low wall, jumping up onto a table - and those do seem DEX based.
The classic use of Jump is to cross a big rift. More acrobatic and agile jumps were already covered by Tumble and now Acrobatics (since it now includes Tumble). That's fine by me and thus I see no need to tie Jump to Dexterity. Let's just keep it Strengh based and keep using it for jumps that require more power than grace.
For all Rangers sake, YES PLEASE!
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Why on Earth would it be "too much" to let fighters have access to tumble/balance?
And that's another way to solve this "problem" -- Acrobatics becoming a class skill for fighters, too.
I have been very frustrated as one of my current PCs is 16th level fighter, who is agile and sure-footed (high ranks in Tumble and Balance), alert (high ranks in Spot and Listen) and diplomatic (high ranks in Diplomacy) -- which is actually how I've always envisioned seasoned "leader"-type warriors to be. The sad part is that *all* the aforementioned skills are cross-class skills for fighter in 3E (can you guess how many ranks I have in class skills?), although Balance, Spot and Listen should have always one of the fighter's "trademarks". So I'm very much for Acrobatics, Diplomacy and Perception becoming class skills for the fighter in PF.
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Why on Earth would it be "too much" to let fighters have access to tumble/balance?
I'm also leaning toward Athletics as a run-jump-climb skill. However, I want to point out that fighters already have access to tumble/balance/acrobatics, and at no penalty. Remember, there are no cross-class skills anymore. They can buy as many ranks as they want. The only thing they don't get is the class skill bonus that bards, monks and rogues get. And fighters may sometimes be dodgey and all, but they're not in the same category as those three classes. To let fighters have Acrobatics as a class skill would take away something unique to the Dex classes.
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Maybe this is a nitpick, charging requires an unobstructed straight line - you can't use jump during a charge. And you can always move through a friendly PC, there's no reason to jump over them. Lastly, if you're using jump to get past an NPC, you're doing it wrong - that's a tumble check.
Given that the needed uses are not valid, I'm not sure it needs to be changed. Personally, I'm not going to ask for a jump check to get by a minor obstacle - a falled enemy, a log, etc. I would ask it for bigger obstacles - a low wall, jumping up onto a table - and those do seem DEX based.
Actually you can jump over an obstacle during a charge. It was discussed in Sage Advice on WotC. They defined "Straight Line" by left vs right movement on that axis - not up and down over an obstacle. They were very specific on this.
With that in mind - it IS the very reason why you would need to call for jump check over such objects such as a fallen log etc - if it lies in the path of the charge.
Robert
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Former track runner (long jump, triple jump) here. The shot put guys were incredibly strong, but could NOT jump. At all. Some flexibility is required (Dex), but aside from that the most important thing is running speed. Unfortunately, D&D has no mechanic to fine-tune that (does someone move at 31 ft. per round, vs. someone else at 28 ft.)? So, barring that, Dex seems fine, or at least just as "realistic" as Strength.
That said, Acrobatics should probably be a class skill for Fighters.
But Jump (in 3.5) did give a modifier based on speed (+4 for every 10ft over 30 and -4 for every feel less than 30.
I dont think I actually read this as part of the Acrobatics skill of PF - not sure if it was an oversight, or a purposeful omission; but regardless of the fate of "jump" in the PF skill system (Acrobatics, Athletics, by itself etc) the movement speed needs to be part of the equation IMO.
Robert
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I do not favor an Athletics.
I hate to see combinations for the sake of combinations. I like to see customization. I don't want to give every fighter climb/jump/swim in one skill. I want to give every fighter enough skill points so they could take those skills and still have a choice for something else. I don't want to increase the value of the skill point, I want to increase the number of skill points.
Yes to 4 skill points for all classes.
No to 'super skills'.
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I do not favor an Athletics.
I hate to see combinations for the sake of combinations. I like to see customization. I don't want to give every fighter climb/jump/swim in one skill. I want to give every fighter enough skill points so they could take those skills and still have a choice for something else. I don't want to increase the value of the skill point, I want to increase the number of skill points.
Yes to 4 skill points for all classes.
No to 'super skills'.
Fair enough - and I'm well aware of your stand having read many a discussion of yours on this issue;
The point of my discussion is irrespective of super skills or enough skill points - my comments are just to express regardless of what they do with jump - it needs to be something on the class list of the fighter/barbarian still.
Robert
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I to think that Jump should be available to fighters, in fact, during yesterday's playtesting of Alpha 2, we had a situation where it prowed it's worth. PC's were chasing goblins in a Underdark environment; goblins crossed the rope bridge that spanned the chasm, and cut the bridge, but quaggoth fighter (STR 26) fell into rage (STR +4) and jumped across, which resulted in slaughter of the goblins via quaggoth's greatsword.
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Agreed that 'warrior types' should have Jump as a class skill.
Quoting myself from another thread:
Jump (Str)
I think this skill can stand on its own. Since I’ve had monk characters with ridiculous jump checks, I know that you can do a lot with this skill. If it stands on its own, there should be more about allowing you to use it to bypass rough terrain. Jump really should be your skill to allow a charge when you might not otherwise be able to. If you can jump enough to avoid the obstacles, you should be able to get your attack. You might also be able to use jump to (as a move action) to gain a +1 height advantage for your attack. These kinds of uses would make the skill better, and it could stand on its own even against the Acrobatics skill.
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Agreed that 'warrior types' should have Jump as a class skill.
Quoting myself from another thread:
Jump (Str)
I think this skill can stand on its own. Since I’ve had monk characters with ridiculous jump checks, I know that you can do a lot with this skill. If it stands on its own, there should be more about allowing you to use it to bypass rough terrain. Jump really should be your skill to allow a charge when you might not otherwise be able to. If you can jump enough to avoid the obstacles, you should be able to get your attack. You might also be able to use jump to (as a move action) to gain a +1 height advantage for your attack. These kinds of uses would make the skill better, and it could stand on its own even against the Acrobatics skill.
one part that makes climb and jump seamlessly flow together is the need to jump up to grab some ledge or handhold and to be able climb/scamper/hoist yourself up onto the ledge.
Robert
Break out of the 3.5 mindset, just because it isn't a class skill doesn't mean a fighter can't have it, he just doesn't get the +3 bonus, big deal.
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Break out of the 3.5 mindset, just because it isn't a class skill doesn't mean a fighter can't have it, he just doesn't get the +3 bonus, big deal.If you jump over a 20ft gap over a deep gorge and you miss by 2 - suddenly that +3 becomes a big deal.
Robert
Actually I took a second look at things and did as you asked to break out of the 3.5 mindset.
It appears upon my intitial skepticism about there being a 3 point differential was a bit off.
In fact its not a 3 point differential at all - its actually about 5 points! Since the fighter is robbed of Jump (3 points) and its now a DEX based skill (which most fighters have higher STR than DEX).
5 points is a big deal. The change in the skill double screwed the fighter.
Finally, I still have not heard from anyone if they know for sure if we are going to have a modifier based on characters' speed as it is described in 3.5
Robert
From Playtesting this weekend:
Jump was the one skill our fighter & ranger dropped at vs. 3.5 skills.
Question: Is there a Speed modifier to Acrobatics when jumping? (It's -6 for 20' by the way, in 3.5)
Question: Can you tumble with Acrobatics while wearing armor that slows you down? (In 3.5 you cannot tumble if your speed is reduced by armor/encumbrance).
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Question: Is there a Speed modifier to Acrobatics when jumping? (It's -6 for 20' by the way, in 3.5)Question: Can you tumble with Acrobatics while wearing armor that slows you down? (In 3.5 you cannot tumble if your speed is reduced by armor/encumbrance).
Good question on the movement in armor - I hadn't thought of that one yet.
As for the speed modifier to jump - its something I've asked a few times in a few places - (including the post above yours).
Apparently no one seems to have the answer. :-( Which the reason that I have been wanting to be clear on this is because we are switching our current 3.5 campaign of AoW to PF as soon as Alpha 3 is released, and my barbarian character who thrives on jumping will already take a hit of 3 points moving that skill from STR to DEX based, and if he has to lose more based on his speed, he'll lose 4 more considing his 40 base move. I'll go from +21 to +14. That'll suck to lose that much to a skill that really defines that character.
Robert