One of the problems I've always had with 3.5 (and indeed previous editions) is that Clerics were basically neccessary for a reasonable party. No other class is strictly neccessary. You might need a rogue if your Dm is really heavy on traps, but otherwise, there are two other classes to play skill monkey. Any melee class is pretty much capable of taking over for the fighter, and arcane casters are just icing on the cake. But the only class who can even begin to do a cleric's work is going to be the Druid, and the party is going to struggle miserably.
To me, what makes the tactical elements of the game interesting is that your party, within certain limits, can work with a lot of differnet mixes, so you have to adapt slightly around what people want to play, but I just don't think that it works with healing, and, as much as I love the rules for it, energy surge is going to make this difference bigger. (The paladin got a healing boost, but he or she is about it).
I'm not proposing 4e anyone-can-heal healing surge nonsense, but I would like to see the classes like the druid, paladin, Bard, or even ranger get enough of a boost that, while not as good as the cleric, will allow them to do the job.
Thoughts? Solutions?
I've never had a party that needed a cleric to function. In fact, I've run and participated in a few groups that including no healing magic capabilities at all; such groups can be completely successful, but the players need to realize that they need to play the game differently than they would if they had a traditional party configuration.
I've never had a party that needed a cleric to function. In fact, I've run and participated in a few groups that including no healing magic capabilities at all; such groups can be completely successful, but the players need to realize that they need to play the game differently than they would if they had a traditional party configuration.
How? Barring a LOT of CLW wands (which I detest) and a lot of potions, how do they adventure with no healer?
Personally, I'd like to see a bard song that granted fast healing or something.
How? Barring a LOT of CLW wands (which I detest) and a lot of potions, how do they adventure with no healer?
The two most beneficial things to keep in mind, in my experience during such situations, are that stealth has real advantages and that not all fight need to be, or should be, fought.
The two most beneficial things to keep in mind, in my experience during such situations, are that stealth has real advantages and that not all fight need to be, or should be, fought.
Ah. Well, unfortunately, in my group, there happen to be a couple of players more interested in hack 'n' slash than stealth/diplomacy. (I can't speak for Velderan's group, of course.)
Ah. Well, unfortunately, in my group, there happen to be a couple of players more interested in hack 'n' slash than stealth/diplomacy. (I can't speak for Velderan's group, of course.)
Hehe, a cleric is a definite bonus, then.
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Seeing as how the cleric in my group Turn Heals more then he casts cure spells now, I don't think the Paladin is going to have a healing problem.. since the Pally has the same ability.
Druids and Rangers are not healers. Anyone that thinks they are, is mistaken. It's been my experience that the only reason a druid or ranger should even bother with a cure spell is so the cleric in the group doesn't have to waste a cure spell on the pet. I would rather have a druid casting Magic Stone or Shillelagh to help kill whatever it is we're fighting at level 1 then to hold back for 1 cure light wound or some goodberrys. Rangers... well look at when they get their spells. Don't count on them period.
As for Bards.. I'd support Bardic Music gaining a healing power.
The PHB 2 fast heal variant for the Druid makes them fine healers (and Im sorry druid, if there aint no cleric, you be healin us instead of monkeying around. My fighter would LOVE to be able to heal the group but he doesnt even have the option...like you do)
There is always the option of allowing sorcerers (and wizards) access to healing spells. Just as long as they are worse at healing than the cleric, I don't see much of a problem with it.
But if, as James Jacobs said in another thread, part of the goal is to make this a viable option as an RPG for people playing Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc., then you've altered a fundamental aspect of setting lore.
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There is always the option of allowing sorcerers (and wizards) access to healing spells. Just as long as they are worse at healing than the cleric, I don't see much of a problem with it.
They exist. There's False Life and Vampiric Touch as such examples. Also, I don't know if they're part of the SRD, a couple of spells that let you transfer hit points from the Wizard to another.
Granted False Life and Vampiric Touch aren't your traditional healing spells.. but they work.
Forgotten Realms already allows this, albeit once removed, with the synostodweomer spell.
Except it's a 7th level spell.
Forgotten Realms already allows this, albeit once removed, with the synostodweomer spell.
And Dragonlance allows this with Timeheal as well, but these aren't "traditional" healing spells that just heal a character. And as Sir Urza pointed out, these tend to be a lot higher level than traditional healing spells.
Really dont have a problem with hauling aorund healing potions myself for healing. Handy when the cleric goes down, which eventually they will (cleric would be the first person i targeted in an ambush, followed by the wizard). And potion bottles are tiny 2oz things, can wear a badoleer with 10 of them no problem.
Personally, I dont see many options for healing that is not heavily skirting into 4th edition territory or interferes with backward compatability. Action points provided one option but it has been mentioned that they wont be part of the core book. Easiest would be a minor shake it off ability for everyone...something like gain back 1 point + con bonus (minimum of one) a minute after the end of a fight to represent that taking a moment afterwards to but that is beginning to skirt back to fourth edition.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Seeing as how the cleric in my group Turn Heals more then he casts cure spells now, I don't think the Paladin is going to have a healing problem.. since the Pally has the same ability.
Druids and Rangers are not healers. Anyone that thinks they are, is mistaken. It's been my experience that the only reason a druid or ranger should even bother with a cure spell is so the cleric in the group doesn't have to waste a cure spell on the pet. I would rather have a druid casting Magic Stone or Shillelagh to help kill whatever it is we're fighting at level 1 then to hold back for 1 cure light wound or some goodberrys. Rangers... well look at when they get their spells. Don't count on them period.
As for Bards.. I'd support Bardic Music gaining a healing power.
I don't think one can be mistaken about a matter of opinion, hehe. isn't your example for 'the only situation in which a druid or ranger should heal' a group that already has a cleric in it? I'm talking about groups without.
That being said, a fast heal bard song might be good.
How? Barring a LOT of CLW wands (which I detest) and a lot of potions, how do they adventure with no healer?The two most beneficial things to keep in mind, in my experience during such situations, are that stealth has real advantages and that not all fight need to be, or should be, fought.
I absolutely agree with you. I don't like games that are combat fests either. But when I do have combat, I want to make it fun and interesting, and it's awfully hard to challenge a group when they don't have a cleric.
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I agree. However, I think the answer in NOT to allow more healing spells, but to improve the heal skill. In fact, I suggested this in another thread. I think the heal skill needs to be improved in general. In addition, I can see class skills for the ranger and druid that allow even greater use of the heal skill due to their advanced knowledge of healing herbs etc.
I dont mind seeing Druids being decent spot healers but unable to heal as well as the cleric. The Druid's strengths definitely lie in other areas.
In 3.5 however, it was pretty easy to make a functional healing druid. The feat to spontaneously cast cure spells, the divine vigor line of spells, the summon the unicorn trick at level 7 that definitely boosted healing for the party.
One of my favorite chars was a Druid in a 3 man party, an offensive fighter/swashbuckler, a wizard and a Druid. Since we were short handed and the tank had next to no AC, we decided an offensive group was best. We quickly dispatched our foes by teaming up on the same creature, and I let the fighter know that in a pinch I could heal in a fight but that if at all possible I would heal him up fully after the fight with vigor spells (wands of lesser vigor heal 550 hp) and teamed up with the wizard and fighter to quickly kill our enemies. (A foe that dies 1-2 rounds quicker deals that much less damage).
It is possible to not have a cleric, but the party just needs to alter its playstyle and be willing to live life on the edge during combat, more so than the standard cleric that heals periodically throughout the fight.
Judicious use of the varying healing potions and Use Magic Device has filled out the healing requirement in most of the groups I have played with. It also stopped people from treating the celric like a walking first aid kit and freed up the cleric to use their spells for something else. It also worked well in groups that had no cleric. As I said, given the size of potion bottles I dont have a problem with carrying several. You can litterly fit dozens in a saddle bag. Most characters in the groups I have played with carried a half dozen of various potencies as common practice.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
The problem with most of these posts is that they tend to include the use of magic items. I don't think magic items should be required to 'fix' a party (esp because, in most of the games I've run or played in, there was now wand-mart to get CLW wands from).
I guess I shouldn't say a cleric is entirely neccessary, but I don't see why being a good healer is their niche alone. Besides, everyone's wanting to add something to the ranger and bard anyway, (though, i think making it powerful and not a generalist will ruin the feel of the bard)
I too dislike the reliance on magic items. Go-go, song of healing?
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Well, our groups aren't as adverse to magic items as others. Frankly, a potion belt with six curative spells tends to be common stock . . . particularly given the headstrong and hack'n'slash nature of many of the group's characters.
A cleric, while handy, can only cure so much! And given some of our lengthy epic battles, the cleric has to pull his or her own weight during combat, as well as after . . . or else there won't be anyone to heal at the end of things . . . including the cleric.
Yeah, it'd be nice to have some way to heal, maybe a mundane item. Using Healing Belt over and over again gets very very frustrating and dull.
A healing song from a bard would be nifty. Especially if it could be used when the party is going to sleep. A vitalizing lullaby, yay!
I think there's a spell in SpC that does this. However, I'd like to see something like fast healing equal to the inspire courage bonus or something.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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In a variety of different systems, I've created a druid spell called hibernate that basically puts a willing creature to sleep for 8 hours and greatly accelerates their natural healing. I've found this to be a way to give the druid some healing boost without simply making them as good of a healer as the cleric - but it really cuts down on the CLW wands and healing potions - but you have to choose how many of your party to use the spell on at once or you'll be in serious trouble should something attack you while you're camped for the night.
I want to add: Clerics channeling negative energy need a boost in healing, too!
I've played a morally ambigious Cleric for some time, and even in D&D3.5, he's always some steps behind of what he'd be with the ability to convert spells to healing, as he needs to reserve precious slots for Cure Spells. With the added difference in Pathfinder channelling, he'd not only be steps, but miles behind.
I know the players are generally supposed not to play evil guys (especially clerics), but even in the morally gray areas of neutral gods, you get the shaft in healing. That's unlucky.
Perhaps add a feat allowing to switch to channeling positive energy temporarily or even permanently? This would keep the neutral/evil guys in balance with the morally more restricted colleagues, I think.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I want to add: Clerics channeling negative energy need a boost in healing, too!
I've played a morally ambigious Cleric for some time, and even in D&D3.5, he's always some steps behind of what he'd be with the ability to convert spells to healing, as he needs to reserve precious slots for Cure Spells. With the added difference in Pathfinder channelling, he'd not only be steps, but miles behind.
I know the players are generally supposed not to play evil guys (especially clerics), but even in the morally gray areas of neutral gods, you get the shaft in healing. That's unlucky.
Perhaps add a feat allowing to switch to channeling positive energy temporarily or even permanently? This would keep the neutral/evil guys in balance with the morally more restricted colleagues, I think.
To a certain extent, these clerics shouldn't need as much healing in their groups though. With them channeling negative energy and draining the life from most of their foes, those foes won't be alive as long and won't inflict as much damage - hence, negative channeling clerics won't need as much healing in the first place.
I'm curious to see whether the new Heal skill changes might help with this situation as well...
I personally think the new option is a step in the right direction. However, I think it should probably be 2 hps per level. That roughly equates to healing anywhere from 33% (d6 hps /level) to 17% (1d12 hps / level) one time a day (not counting any constitution or hit point bonuses). On top of that, it has a physical limitation in the form of a "material component": the healer's kit. Maybe it doesn't make the most logical sense, but you could always say a healer's kit contains some sort of naturally brewed extract or what not.
I don't think that is anywhere near as powerful as UA's reserve points or 4E's surges. It's not much different than low level healing poitions power wise and it's certainly not going to replace positive channeling or a heal spell anytime soon. However it is still useful.
always IMO =)
To a certain extent, these clerics shouldn't need as much healing in their groups though. With them channeling negative energy and draining the life from most of their foes, those foes won't be alive as long and won't inflict as much damage - hence, negative channeling clerics won't need as much healing in the first place.
Pros:
The uses/day are decent, spell resistance doesn't help and energy immunities to negative energy are rare.Cons:
Constructs are immune; against undead, it's dangerous to use.
Using negative channeling in a group setting practically requires Selective Channeling (and for a 4 member party a Cha bonus of at least +3) to be used effectively.
It gives you an AOE-Attack with mediocre damage (10th level firball: 10d6. 10th level channeling: 5d6) and a relatively low save (as it isn't calculated with the cleric's prime attribute). At level 10, it'll do 5x3,5=17,5 dmg, 8 with a successful save. That's less than the fighter will do with an average hit, and he has several attacks per round - and can effectively make AOE-Attacks with (Greate) Cleave, too.
Evaluation:
I don't think the damage done with channeling will make much difference.
It's useful for the BBEG death cleric with undead minions. For a PC, Weapon Focus or one of the new combat Feats are a viable alternative to Selective Channeling.
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I think there's a spell in SpC that does this. However, I'd like to see something like fast healing equal to the inspire courage bonus or something.Yeah, it'd be nice to have some way to heal, maybe a mundane item. Using Healing Belt over and over again gets very very frustrating and dull.
A healing song from a bard would be nifty. Especially if it could be used when the party is going to sleep. A vitalizing lullaby, yay!
Would work well, and far from being too powerful. I'd still restrict the duration of the song to "not from dawn till dusk". I'm generally annoyed by bards starting their song and continuing it for hours. Should there be a 1 min/bard level limit? Oh well, that's for another thread.
I absolutely agree with you. I don't like games that are combat fests either. But when I do have combat, I want to make it fun and interesting, and it's awfully hard to challenge a group when they don't have a cleric.How? Barring a LOT of CLW wands (which I detest) and a lot of potions, how do they adventure with no healer?The two most beneficial things to keep in mind, in my experience during such situations, are that stealth has real advantages and that not all fight need to be, or should be, fought.Not true, you just teach them to learn to evade damage. Very well.
Our current (somewhat odd) group consists of a blue dragon-blooded lizard-thing fighter (I'm not certain what base race he actually is, looks lizardfolk-ish but I don't think that's it), a tiefling rogue, an elven ranger, a half-orc druid, a human paladin, and a feyblooded human warlock who is deep into the fey heritage feats (actually would have been feytouched if I had looked through the fiend folio prior to rolling him, but oh well). The paladin is not always with us (he works 2/3 sessions). The druid rarely prepares healing spells (1 slot per spell level at most).
We keep a handful of potions around the group just in case, an eternal wand of CLW (on the warlock), and a regular wand of CLW (also on the warlock). We haven't needed to drink but one potion, no wand charges, but the eternal wand is nearly always used up.
We survive by mostly avoiding damage. The elf is always at long range, the druid cares for himself, the fighter has high AC, the rogue and I have some DR + resistances. We also tend to fight in a very evasive, defensive manner. The eternal wand charges are usually used on the fighter.
But that still makes use of CLW wands.
As a mainly cleric player, I heartily agree, I would greatly prefer if there are other classes that can help with the healing from time to time.
I believe bards can have a class sub ability that allows them to sing to heal others ('song of aid'), as well as full access to all the cure spells (Cure Minor and Heal included)
Song of Aid? where can that be found?