I don't think I've ever seen a character with Simulacrum or Clone in their stat block, and since both of these are really permanently created constructs, I feel they should be moved from a spell to becoming Templates, and then created via the Craft Golem item creation feat.
Clone Subtype: A clone is a copy of a living creature. While a construct, it does not gain Construct resistances and immunities. The cloned creature uses the BAB, HD type and saves for a Construct. It otherwise gains all the abilities and weaknesses of the creature type it is cloned from. Natural constructs (such as an Iron Golem or a Cloned creature) cannot be cloned.
Simulacrum Template: Move rules from the spell to this template. This creature is a Construct (Shadow, Cloned <Creature Type>)
Clone Template: Move rules from clone to this template. This creature is a Construct (Cloned <Creature Type>). Add the following note: "When the original dies, the Clone changes to the creature type it was cloned from and loses the Clone subtype. Modify the creatures BAB, HD type and saves to match the creature type it becomes."
The same could be done with created undead. Create Undead could be moved from being a spell to an item item creation feat - Create Undead. The costs and such could simply be moved from the spell description to the feat and perhaps allow for other undead to be created (I find it odd you can't create Vampires or Vampire spawn, for example). While it would not be possible to list non-OGL undead that could be created with the feat, a table or a sidebar suggestion could be presented for guidelines on fixing the cost of creating non-standard undead. The current "Animate Dead" or "Create Undead" spells could be replaced with "Summon Undead" spells* or something similiar.
*I'd actually like to see Undead added to the Summon Monster list. Necromancers and the like who have "Animate Dead" or "Create Undead" could be given "Summon Monster (Undead Only)" spell access. Necromancers would also gain the Create Undead spell for free (and perhaps Conjurers could get Craft Construct for free.
I like that; creating permanent creatures can be handled and balanced much better via item creation rules.
Might look something like this:
Create Lesser Undead [Item Creation]
Prerequisites: Able to cast arcane spells of 4th or divine spells of 3rd level
Benefit: You can create Skeletons and Zombies for which you meet the prerequisites. The Skeleton or Zombie to be created cannot have a challenge rating higher than your caster level minus two. Creating a Skeleton or Zombie requires material components including the body to be animated worth 200 GP times the Challenge Rating.
The created undead is under your control. However, you can only control a number of undead whose combined Challenge Ratings do not exceed your caster level times four. If you create undead over and above that limit, you have to release undead until their numbers fall under your control limit again.
Create Undead
Prerequisites: Able to cast arcane spells of 7th or divine spells of 6th level, Create Lesser Undead.
Benefit: You can create Wights, Mummies, Ghouls and Ghasts. All the rules from Create Lesser Undead apply.
Create Greater Undead
Prerequisites: Able to cast arcane spells of 8th or divine spells of 8th level, Create Lesser Undead.
Benefit: You can create Shadows, Wraiths, Spectres, Devourers, Vampires and Vampire Spawns. All the rules from Create Lesser Undead apply.
Stephen, your ideas have great merit, in my opinion. Making a permanent thing should logically fall under item creation, rather than spells. Well done indeed. Evil-Wizards, I like your write-up as well.
Sorry to nit-pick Evil_Wizard, but since Craft Construct allows you make constructs ranging from homonculous to golems, it really seems like there should be only one Create Undead item creation feat. Like creating constructs, you could restrict what types of undead you could create with costs/HD and/or minimum level requirements.
Adding undead to the Summon Monster spells isn't the perfect solution, but I think its better than the most likely result that would occur if you started breaking Summon spells down into creature types (Summon Undead, Summon Construct, etc.)
Summon Monster I
- Medium Skeleton (human warrior skeleton)
- Small Zombie (kobold zombie)
Summon Monster II
- Large Skeleton (owlbear skeleton)
- Medium Zombie (human commoner zombie)
Summon Monster III
- Large Zombie (ogre zombie)
- Ghoul (can't create spawn?)
Summon Monster IV
- Allip
- Ghast
Summon Monster V
- Mummy
- Wight (can't create spawn?)
- Shadow (can't create spawn?)
- Vampire spawn
Summon Monster VI
- Wraith (can't create spawn?)
Summon Monster VII
- Mohrg (can't create spawn)
- Greater Shadow (can't create spawn?)
Summon Monster VIII
- Bodak
Summon Monster IX
- Dread wraith (can't create spawn?)
- Devourer*
* A trapped essence is released when the summoning ends.
I think it would be appropriate that summoned undead should not create spawn, just in the same manner that outsiders can't summon more of their kind if brought by a summons.
I'd also love to see a summonable full-fledged vampire in the mix, say with VII or VIII. The statblock would have to be in a sidebar however, since there isn't a vampire statted out in the SRD.
Sorry to nit-pick Evil_Wizard, but since Craft Construct allows you make constructs ranging from homonculous to golems, it really seems like there should be only one Create Undead item creation feat. Like creating constructs, you could restrict what types of undead you could create with costs/HD and/or minimum level requirements.
Stephen, while I agree with you for the most part, I think there should be two Create Undead feats: Create Minor (Mindless) Undead and Create Greater (Intelligent) Undead...or...Create Corporeal Undead and Create Incorporeal Undead.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Sorry to nit-pick Evil_Wizard, but since Craft Construct allows you make constructs ranging from homonculous to golems, it really seems like there should be only one Create Undead item creation feat. Like creating constructs, you could restrict what types of undead you could create with costs/HD and/or minimum level requirements.Stephen, while I agree with you for the most part, I think there should be two Create Undead feats: Create Minor (Mindless) Undead and Create Greater (Intelligent) Undead...or...Create Corporeal Undead and Create Incorporeal Undead.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
Definately worth a thought, but is it really necessary? What's the advantage of splitting it between mindless and intelligent - seperate HD pools? Same with the reasoning for Corporeal/Incorporeal. The requirement of working with physical corpses vs. spirits?
Sorry to nit-pick Evil_Wizard, but since Craft Construct allows you make constructs ranging from homonculous to golems, it really seems like there should be only one Create Undead item creation feat. Like creating constructs, you could restrict what types of undead you could create with costs/HD and/or minimum level requirements.
You are correct - one feat is better. I've updated the proposal:
Create Undead [Item Creation]
Prerequisites: Able to cast arcane spells of 4th or divine spells of 3rd level
Benefit: You can create Undead for which you meet the prerequisites. The Undead to be created cannot have a challenge rating higher than your caster level minus two. Creating an Undead requires material components including the body to be animated worth 200 GP times the Challenge Rating.
The created undead is under your control. However, you can only control a number of undead whose combined Challenge Ratings do not exceed your caster level times four. If you create undead over and above that limit, you have to release undead until their numbers fall under your control limit again. While under your control, undead cannot create spawns.*
Required Caster Level / Undead**
5 Zombie [CR 1-6***]
7 Skeleton [CR 1-8***]
9 Ghoul [CR 2]
11 Ghast [CR 3-4]
13 Mummy [CR 5-9], Shadow [3-4****]
15 Wraith [CR 5-6]
17 Spectre [CR 7-8], Mohrg [CR 8-11]
19 Vampire [CR 7-unlimited], Vampire Spawn [CR 4], Devourer [CR 11-17]
---
*Alternative version: Spawns created by undead under your control are not under their creator's control.
**CRs are included in the table just for reference.
I've reduced the required levels from Create (Greater) Undead a little here. A feat requirement, greater cost (x4) and the CR limits should keep things in balance better than just a Caster Level requirement, however harsh it may be. CL requirements only beg for some Prayer Bead of Karma/Death Knell/Circle Magic/.../-abuse.
***Sidenote: The CR of Skeletons/Zombies is not very accurate currently, as it's only tied to HD.
I've set Skeletons to a higher level, as IMHO, animating just bones appears to be harder than an almost intact body. Also, due to their increased number of attacks and usually better DR, they are more powerful in general - as is correctly portrayed by the higher CRs.
****Shadows are IMO seriously overpowered, especially when compared to a Wraith. A Fortitude Save should be added to their strength damage ability to bring them in line with Wraiths. Yes, Wraiths have drain instead of damage, gain HP by draining, drain Con instead of Str. However, five Shadows are a serious match for even a 20th level character, and can kill almost all creatures in the Monster Manual. Under the control of a PC, Shadows are just... hardcore.
I think it would be appropriate that summoned undead should not create spawn, just in the same manner that outsiders can't summon more of their kind if brought by a summons.
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Bring an end to the Shadow Spawn menace!
D&D3.5, Master of Shrouds with a Phylactery of Undead Rebuking, kiss the world goodbye. He summons a Shadow, lets it spawn one Shadow, controls the Shadow via rebuking, sets the controlled Shadow loose on a village, and commands his controlled Shadow to command his Spawns to devour the world. Possible with D&D3.5 RAW, but a complete mess.
Out of curiousity, why CR instead of HD limits for control? I can see why CR for creation limits, but not so sure about using CR limits for that (especially when you get into human commoner skeletons, at 1/3 CR).
Out of curiousity, why CR instead of HD limits for control? I can see why CR for creation limits, but not so sure about using CR limits for that (especially when you get into human commoner skeletons, at 1/3 CR).
HD are just so random, especially with undead. A Gray Render Zombie (20 HD, CR 6) is not equivalent to even two Spectres (2 x 7HD, 2 x CR 7). Especially under PC control, the Spectres are much more useful. Even at level 20, their touch attack and level drain are a dangerous attack, and at mid levels, they can take care of many opponents all by themselves.
It's reflected in the advancement rules: Adding four HD adds only one level of CR. Undead HD are very weak (good save will, but immune to most will effects anyhow; weak BAB; no feats/skills for mindless undead). The base abilities are much more important than the HD.
Compare two Shadows (2 x 3 HD) with an advanced Shadow (6 HD). The advanced Shadow is not even tougher when you add the HP of the two "weaker" Shadows, and they have double (!) the offensive power (same attack bonus and damge, but two attacks). Being incorporeal, they don't even have to worry about attack space much, and can move to flanking positions easily.
It gets really weird when you mess around with the currently fixed CR for mindless undead: a Half-Dragon-Paragon-Pit-Fiend-Skeleton (18 HD) vs. 18 human commoner Skeletons (18 x 1 HD).
This is a good idea. Really, it is. Craft Lesser Undead and Craft Greater Undead as feats (With Greater requiring lesser as a pre-req.) Fold Simulacrum into a craft feat.
Clone should remain a spell. It doesn't create a creature. It creates a warm corpse.
Change the current Animate Dead, Create Undead, and Create Greater Undead spells into a summoning-esque necromancy spell chain with 'treat as' rules.
After some thinking, a better formula for undead / construct would be:
CR x CR x 50 GP, minimum 50 GP.
All other item costs increase cubic, not linear, and wealth / treasure limits are set accordingly.
Examples:
50 GP Human Skeleton Warrior (CR 1/2, minimum level 5 or 7)
1,250 GP Ettin Skeleton (CR 5, minimum level 7)
2,450 GP Spectre (CR 7, minimum level 9)
14,450 GP (36 HD, CR 17 Devourer, minimum level 19)
That makes undead components more or less equivalent to minor magic items relevant at these levels.
Definately worth a thought, but is it really necessary? What's the advantage of splitting it between mindless and intelligent - seperate HD pools? Same with the reasoning for Corporeal/Incorporeal. The requirement of working with physical corpses vs. spirits?
Stephen, I dont think it is absolutely necessary. I think however it would appeal to many gamers and since that is the point of the game I think the inclusion of two feats would be a good compromise between not having such feats and having several feats.
The split of mindless versus intelligent is more to due with utility. Intelligent undead are far more useful and often to a degree a higher CR than mindless undead.
As for the corporeal-spirit split, that is more of a flavor based feat pairing than a mechanics one. Is this the sort of person who animates corpses with/without a mind or the sort who rips out souls, twists and enslaves them.
-Weylin STormcrowe
I think both ways are acceptable. With the increased number of feats in Pathfinder, the "must haves" leave enough room for one or two undead creation feats.
If splitting it into two feats, a distinction between corporeal and incorporeal would make more sense, I think. Intelligence gives Ghouls a definate boost in usefulness over Skeletons, but the boost from incorporability is much greater.
Incorporeal undead
- are easier to transport (perhaps the most important advantage - what good is a humongous zombie with a gazillion HD half a continent away?),
- are easier to tactically place on the battlefield (it's basically free flanking),
- are immune to many effects/attacks,
- have touch attacks, making their attacks almost auto-hits,
- have attacks that circumvent DR and
- can walk through walls, are completely silent and thus very good scouts.
They only loose
- the ability to carry stuff for you and
- the ability to use corporeal equipment.
A new feat isn't necessary for balancing reasons, but might be good for some mechanism to put some limits on these highly dangerous and useful creatures.
E. g., creatures created with the "greater" feat might
- count double towards the control limit,
- be uncontrolled, limiting their control to spells and channeling or
- be more costly.
One point that speaks against separate feats would be consistency, however. There's no "Craft Greater Wondrous Items" or "Brew Greater Potions".
Also, making one feat necessary where in D&D3.5 none is needed is less of a change than making two or more feats necessary.
Good catch on the costing price.
Out of the splits for making undead, corporeal vs. incorporeal makes the most sense to me. Though I am still hesitant to commit to a split in making undead.
On the matter of Clone - it seems at the very least you should have the Craft Construct feat for making the body, but the spell would transfer the memories and soul.
It would be nice if you didn't have to wait for the original to die to activate the clone (I mean, it is a 9th level spell, after all), but without some sort of limitation, I don't want spellcasters running around with a dozen copies of themselves (and the rest of the party). Perhaps when making such a clone while you still live prevents all or most of class levels from passing on? You get a nice duplicate of your body, but it's inexperienced. Makes for some excellent story/roleplay adventures, don't you think?
<edit> in fact, adventure idea - the party is sent to investigate a manor and determine if the owner is behind some nefarious act. The house is filled with inexperienced clones of the owner. When the party faces the original, he reveals his evilness and attacks. Upon being slain, his soul transfers to one of the clones, who hunts the party down for revenge (perhaps switching to avoidance after a few clone losses) ... and so on, until the last clone is defeated. Mixing the encounters up each time would be vital to keep it from degrading into boredom, but I think it'd make a terrific story.
It would be nice if you didn't have to wait for the original to die to activate the clone (I mean, it is a 9th level spell, after all), but without some sort of limitation, I don't want spellcasters running around with a dozen copies of themselves (and the rest of the party). Perhaps when making such a clone while you still live prevents all or most of class levels from passing on? You get a nice duplicate of your body, but it's inexperienced. Makes for some excellent story/roleplay adventures, don't you think?
<edit> in fact, adventure idea - the party is sent to investigate a manor and determine if the owner is behind some nefarious act. The house is filled with inexperienced clones of the owner. When the party faces the original, he reveals his evilness and attacks. Upon being slain, his soul transfers to one of the clones, who hunts the party down for revenge (perhaps switching to avoidance after a few clone losses) ... and so on, until the last clone is defeated. Mixing the encounters up each time would be vital to keep it from degrading into boredom, but I think it'd make a terrific story.
That's what Simulacrum is for, though.
One point that speaks against separate feats would be consistency, however. There's no "Craft Greater Wondrous Items" or "Brew Greater Potions".
Also, making one feat necessary where in D&D3.5 none is needed is less of a change than making two or more feats necessary.
Not averse myself to seeing a reworking of the magic item creation feats to be something like Craft Minor <Magic Item Type>, Craft Medium <Magic Item Type>, Craft Major <Magic Item Type>, Craft Epic <Magic Item Type>. These descriptive tiers are already used in the magical item lists and descriptions. If not feats then require a spellcraft or knowledge:arcana inceasing DC by the level of the item.
-Weylin Stormcrowe
That's what Simulacrum is for, though.
Ah, but you can't transfer your active conciousness to a Simulacrum - its only a "shadow" of your former self :).
For future reference:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20061222a
The Sage Advice on Spawn hierarchies with a controlled master undead.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070511a
The Sage Advice on summoned monster being able to create new spawns.