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At first look-over, and as a druid-fan, I have to say that the subtle adjustments made to the druid class are well done. I especially like the reworking of wild shape, starting it at 4-level and making it "at will" by 20-level. Providing the option of domain spells allows for having different enclaves of druids, potentially with different agendas and viewing each other as heretics (remember 2ed's focus on "Shadow Circle" druids?).
Overall, more options and maintaining their superiority without losing the usefullness of wildshape. Nicely done!
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I really don't have any complaints about the druid changes save one. The Pathfinder Druid seems to be able to specialize such that they increase the power of their animal companion or to increase their spell power through the domain power. I feel those are nice options, but what about the druid that wants to specialize, not in the animal companion or spell power, but in wild shape. The animal domain has a little in regards to this with the animal form ability, but I was thinking more of a focus on shifting than that. Adding a third option for the druid that would in some way increase their shapeshifting ability seems to me to complete the three primary focuses of the druid. All in all, seems like the class is on the right track. Thoughts
Yeh, I really like the carrot that the new Druids get to not have a animal companions.
The options of different flavors of druids is also very attractive from a storytelling standpoint.
I like what I see,
but have a few questions/suggestions.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency.
Instead of "thus, they may wear only padded, leather, hide or hide shirt armor",
Could we have that changed to "thus, they usually only wear padded, leather, hide or hide shirt armor"
The way it is written now would seem to only allow druids to wear those 4 types of armor, rather than limiting them to non-metallic armor. I am thinking here of things like leaf armor or chitin armor.
Nature Bond
In the list of domains, could we add "Healing"? This fits in well with the nature/nurture concept, as well as fitting in nature's abhorrence of the undead.
Trackless Step
Does this mean that there is no mundane way to track the Druid in a natural setting? That is, the druid leaves no scent trail?
If so, perhaps change part of the phrase to "and cannot be tracked by mundane means."
Wild Shape
At 12th level, could we add in "beast shape IV"? It would give the Druid access to this one level after a wizard can get it as a spell. I have thoughts in my head of a druid changing into a pegasus and rescueing his fellow adventurers or other groups caught up in somekind of disaster.
Wild Shape
At 12th level, could we add in "beast shape IV"? It would give the Druid access to this one level after a wizard can get it as a spell.
seconded!
I have some minor peeves with the druid class that I hope might be addressed.
1. Acquiring animal companions. Could we please make it 8 hours of uninterrupted prayer, after which the new animal arrives within a day? In 3.5, the "it takes 24 hours" thing also crops up with wizards adding spells to their spellbooks, and I think it's just a little ridiculous.
2. Do druids get horse animal companions, or warhorses? It makes a huge difference. Can you train a horse animal companion so it is 'trained for war' and thus can wear armor and such?
3. Druid animal companions are allowed to wear full plate barding. Druids cannot. Why in the heck can druids use metal weapons, but not metal armor? Why aren't druids proficient in bows? At least shortbows, for hunting?
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Nature Bond
In the list of domains, could we add "Healing"? This fits in well with the nature/nurture concept, as well as fitting in nature's abhorrence of the undead.
Could also add in the Sun Domain...Sun is apart of nature, as well as the abilities apart of that domain deal with the undead damaging
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To continue my initial thoughts, perhaps a druid focusing on wild shape could gain more wild shapes per day, or earlier access to forms. I found the shapeshifting variant from the phbII and the player created shapeshifter class from iron heroes both utilized an unlimited shapeshifting per day at the cost of forms, animal companion, or spells. I would be interested to see how something similar to this, not necessarily unlimited shifting, but something along those lines could be integrated into the current druid.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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Trackless Step
Does this mean that there is no mundane way to track the Druid in a natural setting? That is, the druid leaves no scent trail?
If so, perhaps change part of the phrase to "and cannot be tracked by mundane means."
You couldn't track a Druid by scent in 3.5 either (in natural surroundings). It wasn't specifically spelled out but the "cannot be tracked" clause of Trackless Step pretty much rules it out as Scent has a provision to Track (as the feat).
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I think the druid needs to have a focus on shapeshifting option, like CD8D mentioned, and also access to more domains, but not all. I want to hear the case for the Glory domain. Personally I'd vote for Air, Animal, Destruction, Earth, Fire, Healing, Plant, Protection, REPOSE, Sun, Travel, Water and Weather.
Others might include Charm and Community. I could see them being used, Community is kind of an extension of Protection, but I don't really know that I feel its totally appropriate. Charm makes some sense as a "fey-like" druid.
Strength could also be used as a wild shape focused domain. I'm not advocating that as a substitute for just adding a wild shape variant focus. I realize the PHBII variant with different types of forms isn't OGL, but its my favorite alternative.
I like the druid revisions, I'm just adding my two cents.
I really don't have any complaints about the druid changes save one. The Pathfinder Druid seems to be able to specialize such that they increase the power of their animal companion or to increase their spell power through the domain power. I feel those are nice options, but what about the druid that wants to specialize, not in the animal companion or spell power, but in wild shape. The animal domain has a little in regards to this with the animal form ability, but I was thinking more of a focus on shifting than that. Adding a third option for the druid that would in some way increase their shapeshifting ability seems to me to complete the three primary focuses of the druid. All in all, seems like the class is on the right track. Thoughts
Unless they changed wildshaping, I think they are powerful enough as it is.
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I really don't have any complaints about the druid changes save one. The Pathfinder Druid seems to be able to specialize such that they increase the power of their animal companion or to increase their spell power through the domain power. I feel those are nice options, but what about the druid that wants to specialize, not in the animal companion or spell power, but in wild shape. The animal domain has a little in regards to this with the animal form ability, but I was thinking more of a focus on shifting than that. Adding a third option for the druid that would in some way increase their shapeshifting ability seems to me to complete the three primary focuses of the druid. All in all, seems like the class is on the right track. ThoughtsUnless they changed wildshaping, I think they are powerful enough as it is.
I'm not saying they aren't powerful enough. What I'm refering to is that they would have a wild shape enhancement option as an alternative to the animal companion or domain access. A third option.
You couldn't track a Druid by scent in 3.5 either (in natural surroundings). It wasn't specifically spelled out but the "cannot be tracked" clause of Trackless Step pretty much rules it out as Scent has a provision to Track (as the feat).Trackless Step
Does this mean that there is no mundane way to track the Druid in a natural setting? That is, the druid leaves no scent trail?
If so, perhaps change part of the phrase to "and cannot be tracked by mundane means."
To avoid any possible misinterpretation, I would like it spelled out in the rules. Makes life easier for everyone.
Hey. I started a druid thread addressing the class modifications and the difficulty you face when you try to fit many types of character paradigms into a single class bundle.
"Constructive Druid fix thread"
Tell me what you think.
I think the Pathfinder Druid is far closer to balancing the class in power in concept, but they really need to polish *shape spells and wild shape to really make it work. Right now those spells and wild shape are terrible.
That being said, I’ve had a couple ideas on how to rearrange the druid abilities to fix some of the problems.
WILD SHAPE:
A. Remove existing 3.5 and Paizo versions of the ability (PLEASE KEEP READING because I'm a super-fan of the ability, and I won't shaft "us" who can't get enough of it. Also, remove natural spell from the game or increase it's level requirement to reflect it's power level.
B. Like someone said earlier, please add the *shape spells to the druid list, that satisfies the desire to become animals, plants, magical beasts, etc. (and fix the spells so the abilities you gain apply to forms below the spell being used, so leopards CAN pounce like dire lions at a certain power level.)I'm assuming you guys imply we get natural attacks of the form, since the spells don't say so.
1. replace summoning spontaneity with, wild-shape spontaneity, so you can always cast the spell if you want(Read below for how I took this into consideration for summoning spontaneity/animal companion.)
2. at third-ish, when a druid uses the *shape spell, they get +2 bonus to either, swim, climb,jump,sense perception,etc to show that they are more proficient with animal forms than others like wizards.
3. at around fifth, when a druid casts a *shape spell it lasts as though cast with the extend meta-magic feat applied but without
4. at a little past mid-level, when a druid casts a *shape spell, the stat bonuses are +4 and the and the natural armor by +2. At this time, the bonus to the one skill is +4.
5. around 17th, 1/day, a druid may cast a *shape spell with a duration of hours/druid level, during which he/she may cast spells.(This allows for players to play the arch druid that spends most of his/her time in a favored animal form, protecting their terrain, while casting spells, but reserves this for a level of power more fitting it's versatility.
c. This forces a balancing factor on shape-shifting druids without hindering them. this way, the use of wild shaping uses spell slots that won't be used on lightning bolts, regeneration, or buff spells. The bonuses to the spells make them more powerful/ flavorful to druids who are sacrificing other spells for them. All in all, it makes shape-shifting into far less of a class-balancing factor while preserving it's usefulness to those that love it.
Animal Companion/ Domain:(I agree with Paizo that these are balanced in power level so should be considered together)
ANIMAL COMPANION:
A.Remove the animal companion in it's current state.
B.Add ability:"Wild Pact," 1/week a druid may cast a summon nature's ally spell, one level lower than highest he/she can cast (minimum level 1 at first)to summon a natural animal or magical beast he/she otherwise could have summoned. For as long as the pact is in effect, the spell slot used to summon the animal is counted as "dedicated," and cannot be used to prepare spells each morning. The animal does not count as a spell summoned creature in an anti-magic field or for counter-spelling. Although it uses a spell slot and the slot decides a number of factors, the animal counts a normal animal of its kind summoned by the spell except where different below.
The animal is summoned as though with augmented summoning applied and has the duration of days equal to 2+charisma modifier, or until animal dies- whichever comes first. The animal has Link, Share spell, and Multi-attack.
SUMMONING:
A. In this redesign, spontaneous summoning was removed earlier for wild shape spontaneity, but you can't shaft those people that picture druids as beast lords with flocks of birds and animals.
B. The animal companion feature partially fills this in by giving a powerful summoned creature that you can switch out more often than a traditional companion, trading maybe a little power in the higher levels for versatility. But that doesn't do the trick all the way.
C. An ability that steps up like a monk's slow fall. "Beast lord"/"Summoner," or something like that. 1-3/day Whenever a druid casts a summon nature's ally spell, it is cast as with either one of two option: either the spell is cast as though extended or as though augment summoning were being applied to it. In addition to this option, when casting from a lesser spell list, the variable number of animals summoned is increased by +1 at a maximum number of the die rolled(so if you roll 1 on your d3, you get 2, but if you roll a 3 on the d3 you still only get 3.)
Spell-casting:
A. Add a single domain from this list: animal,plant,any of 4 elements,death,healing. (Either domain like 3.5 rules or a Paizo domain ability set, whichever rules you're using.)Because the other 2 main druid features have been tied to usage of spell slots, the addition of a single domain would offset the abilities' drain on spell casting while balancing their usage. For the druid that really play like a nature cleric, without using the animal companion ability or the wild shape variant you have just as many spell slots and instead of healing as good you summon better, which keeps true to the idea of druids being more wild/ offensive rather than defensive.
Each time I've changed the abilities of the druid to make them somewhat more optional to each type of player. If you don't want a certain feature, you keep all the base spell slots you otherwise would have had. So if you don't wild shape or summon an animal companion you are still balanced with the cleric, the most similar class. You have full caster level, you have lesser abilities that make your more mobile whereas the cleric has more armor. If you're not preparing *shape spells that's one more damage/buff/heal spell you have.
B.For those druids that want to be better healers: Give druids the same healing spell progression as a cleric up to 4th- cure critical, but remove the mass spells or push them ever further back on the spell list. Access to the base cures earlier will make it easier for a party with a druid but not cleric to still have a proper healer. This allows for druids to be the nurturer/sage/caster sort without stealing any clerical thunder. (If a druid wants to be a healer they can just take the healing domain as I've listed above, which gives more heals and access to mass cure light and mass heal later on.)
C.As the previous poster has said, I could see the casting as being made into a spontaneous caster like sorcerer, but you can also see their magic as stores of build up wisdom of the natural world, just as a wizard's casting built up knowledge of the arcane world.(I was personally more inclined to make the cleric a spontaneous caster, but still wisdom-based.)
just to make sure, I'm assuming that we all just pretend the Natural Spell feat never happened since it's the source of most druidic cans of worms anyway.
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I'm not entirely sure if someone has already mentioned this, but I find it necessary to point out one thing.
With wild shape, the druid can gets 4 natural attacks by shifting into wild shape, using Deinonychus as the animal. The restriction for "those the druid is familiar with" isn't foolproof, and thus some consideration should be done to fix this issue. Possibly limit the number to natural attacks to just one with beast shape I?
just to make sure, I'm assuming that we all just pretend the Natural Spell feat never happened since it's the source of most druidic cans of worms anyway.
If you make Wild Shape a fair bit weaker (as Pathfinder has done), then I don't really see what the problem with Natural Spell is.
I'm not entirely sure if someone has already mentioned this, but I find it necessary to point out one thing.
With wild shape, the druid can gets 4 natural attacks by shifting into wild shape, using Deinonychus as the animal. The restriction for "those the druid is familiar with" isn't foolproof, and thus some consideration should be done to fix this issue. Possibly limit the number to natural attacks to just one with beast shape I?
That's the problem with allowing the ability to polymorph into specific creatures: some creatures are better than others.
That's why some people advocate something more like the Shapeshift Druid variant from the Player's Handbook II. In that variant, you have a few different tiers (my memory is a bit hazy, so I could be wrong on the specifics):
Tier 1: Starting from level 1, you can shapeshift into a medium creature with a bite attack and you get a bonus to Str/Dex and natural armor. Whether you look like a wolf, a boar, or something else is up to you.
Tier 2: Starting at level 4 or 5 (?), you can shapeshift into something with a bite attack and two claw attacks, and your bonuses to Str/Dex/NA are a little better. Whether you look like a bear or a leopard is up to you.
And so on. It's a better balanced ability, but it's a little limiting (since you'll probably be unable to shapeshift into something really weird and wild like a giant squid with 10 attacks).
What is anyone really discussing here? Whether or not a druid gets all the attacks of a deinonychus? Without everyone restating it over and over again, in general forum/class forum/spells and casting forum:
In general the gist is that the *shape spells really fix a lot of problems with the polymorph subschool, but poses new problems of it's own in really depowering a druid's class feature.
The spells are also wonky because they don't specify "trickle" down usefulness of EX. abilities in previous form options and they don't specify when or if you get any natural attacks. No one said all possible animal forms have to be equal to one another. In "old"/3.5 wild shape you are limited my "familiarity" with forms, their HD, and size/type categories, but if you take everything you can become with same HD, not all of them are as useful for a given task and they shouldn't be.
(One important thing, to me, is that with PRPG, you're going to have players that are mostly people who've been playing 3.x for years and who's GM's can more than make some of these decisions for their group. It's not necessary that their "core" text lay out every tiny thing.)
Will someone from Paizo please just respond to this line of questioning so we don't run the druid thread into the ground.
Uhg. I hate posting after I reply to stuff.
As far as the *shape spells apply to druids, the problem is that it makes everything into a very complicated, generic, scaling "bull's strength" and that's no fun to play. BUT if you leave those mostly as they are, and make sure to add them to the class spell list(!) we could tailor the druid's wild shape to be more like the variant. What about these ideas:
-as in my previous long post, just give druids bonuses to the *shape spells so they at least work better, preserving some of the potential of 3.5 version of it. But make them still be cast as spells. But most importantly, make the spells more powerful but disallow spell use.
-for the wild shape feature, give druids an alternate form, a nature's avatar or something, usable rounds/day or minutes/day that might have a few spread out stat increases (not enhancements) but not as much as the *shape spells, but as you level up you can tailor the forms mode of movement, skill bonuses, natural attacks, etc. This way, you have a druid that can turn into a various animals for flavor, but would rely on their avatar or whatever to supply those EX. abilities you like the most often. So over 20 levels I add a boost to +10 land speed to the form, +(x) to attack and damage to natural creatures from temperate forests(or whatever), it has 2 natural claw attacks and a gore because I added deer's antlers, and later on I get a fly speed, and at highest the guy gains the air elemental sub-type. All the while the form is still mostly the druid's humanoid form, but empowered by the "aspects" of nature they most embody and still cast spells.
In this alternate form it would be like a fighters feats to focus on a weapon, but like putting "feats" into a single customized form.
(Have abilities scale up like they do in Geomancer drifts but with some stat bonuses. It wouldn't be over powered because looking at drifts, which the Geomancer gets PERMANENTLY over time, you get add more power on a time limit and it wouldn't overpower being able to cast spells, again, since Geomancers gain drifts and still cast all their crazy leyline magic wonkiness.
For balance issues, this would make sure that the class' shape-changing ability creates forms that are balanced against only other druid forms that could be made with the ability. You wouldn't have to worry about hundreds of animals from the books and people always turning into a deinonychus rather than a lion because it has more natural attacks, etc.
This also would allow for a more totemic feel for all those people that really want that a part of the druid class.
(I always thought the aspects of nature really shafted a player in comparison to the power of wild shaping into animals. Something like this could work in both mechanics for flavor/utility)
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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To avoid any possible misinterpretation, I would like it spelled out in the rules. Makes life easier for everyone.You couldn't track a Druid by scent in 3.5 either (in natural surroundings). It wasn't specifically spelled out but the "cannot be tracked" clause of Trackless Step pretty much rules it out as Scent has a provision to Track (as the feat).Trackless Step
Does this mean that there is no mundane way to track the Druid in a natural setting? That is, the druid leaves no scent trail?
If so, perhaps change part of the phrase to "and cannot be tracked by mundane means."
No problem. Firstly there are only a few means of tracking a creature without magic in the game, the Track feat, the Survival skill, and the Scent special ability. After looking at those mechanics you compare to Trackless Step. Because Scent references the Track feat and Trackless step says you cannot be tracked, you cannot track a druid by scent unless he/she wants you to.
Benefit
To find tracks or to follow them for 1 mile requires a successful Survival check. You must make another Survival check every time the tracks become difficult to follow.
You move at half your normal speed (or at your normal speed with a -5 penalty on the check, or at up to twice your normal speed with a -20 penalty on the check). The DC depends on the surface and the prevailing conditions, as given on Table: Track DC.
Very Soft Ground
Any surface (fresh snow, thick dust, wet mud) that holds deep, clear impressions of footprints.
Soft Ground
Any surface soft enough to yield to pressure, but firmer than wet mud or fresh snow, in which a creature leaves frequent but shallow footprints.
Firm Ground
Most normal outdoor surfaces (such as lawns, fields, woods, and the like) or exceptionally soft or dirty indoor surfaces (thick rugs and very dirty or dusty floors). The creature might leave some traces (broken branches or tufts of hair), but it leaves only occasional or partial footprints.
Hard Ground
Any surface that doesn’t hold footprints at all, such as bare rock or an indoor floor. Most streambeds fall into this category, since any footprints left behind are obscured or washed away. The creature leaves only traces (scuff marks or displaced pebbles).
Several modifiers may apply to the Survival check, as given on Table: Track DC Modifiers.
If you fail a Survival check, you can retry after 1 hour (outdoors) or 10 minutes (indoors) of searching.
Normal
Without this feat, you can use the Survival skill to find tracks, but you can follow them only if the DC for the task is 10 or lower. Alternatively, you can use the Search skill to find a footprint or similar sign of a creature’s passage using the DCs given above, but you can’t use Search to follow tracks, even if someone else has already found them.
Special
A ranger automatically has Track as a bonus feat. He need not select it.
This feat does not allow you to find or follow the tracks made by a subject of a pass without trace spell.
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Scent
This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.
A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.
The creature detects another creature’s presence but not its specific location. Noting the direction of the scent is a move action. If it moves within 5 feet of the scent’s source, the creature can pinpoint that source.
A creature with the Track feat and the scent ability can follow tracks by smell, making a Wisdom check to find or follow a track. The typical DC for a fresh trail is 10. The DC increases or decreases depending on how strong the quarry’s odor is, the number of creatures, and the age of the trail. For each hour that the trail is cold, the DC increases by 2. The ability otherwise follows the rules for the Track feat. Creatures tracking by scent ignore the effects of surface conditions and poor visibility.
Creatures with the scent ability can identify familiar odors just as humans do familiar sights.
Water, particularly running water, ruins a trail for air-breathing creatures. Water-breathing creatures that have the scent ability, however, can use it in the water easily.
False, powerful odors can easily mask other scents. The presence of such an odor completely spoils the ability to properly detect or identify creatures, and the base Survival DC to track becomes 20 rather than 10.
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Trackless Step (Ex)
Starting at 3rd level, a druid leaves no trail in natural surroundings and cannot be tracked. She may choose to leave a trail if so desired.