Two quick comments on the CMB as listed in Alpha 2:
1) Performing a combat maneuver refers to making an attack roll and then adding your CMB. As the CMB already includes your BAB and strength bonus, and my understanding of an attack roll does too, do these both get added twice in effect? Unless that was the intention it might be clearer to refer to a d20 roll + CMB
2) All the CMB maneuvers appear to list Strength as the key stat, when a case can be made to include Dexterity instead if it's higher (for all of them probably). For example avoiding grapples and bull rushes is as much about twisting away as it is about standing firm. Avoiding disarms and trips is about maneuvering around the opponent's attack. What's that quote about bending in the wind rather than standing firm and breaking?
It could even be argued that Dexterity works in offensive CMB maneuvers too - Ju-jitsu relies on holds and positioning more than brute strength, although an opponent may well use Strength to break the hold. Disarms are about where you strike as much as how hard. Overrun is little more than a basic acrobatic movement, which is Dex based anyway. Even Bullrush could be Dex based if you get under their feet to knock them off-balance and then force them to stagger backwards whilst they regain their footing.
Can we make CMB = BAB + (Str or Dex) + Size
Performing a Combat Maneuver would be d20 + CMB
Two quick comments on the CMB as listed in Alpha 2:
1) Performing a combat maneuver refers to making an attack roll and then adding your CMB. As the CMB already includes your BAB and strength bonus, and my understanding of an attack roll does too, do these both get added twice in effect? Unless that was the intention it might be clearer to refer to a d20 roll + CMB
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Performing a Combat Maneuver would be d20 + CMB
This however raises the issue of how to deal with weapons as they come into play in certain combat maneuvers. For example, the whip can be used to trip. How does it come into play without an attack roll? What about if it is masterwork or magical? What about if you disarm an opponent using your shiny new +2 rapier, or sunder the shield of that orc with your extra large masterwork warhammer? If it is only d20 + CMB, none of these would factor in under your proposed rule. However, I do agree that under the current formulation the BAB is counted twice, which isn't very elegant.
I wonder about the first question as well. It should be d20 + CMB modifier + misc. modifier.
For the second part of this thread, about dexterity:
Look up the feat: agile maneuvers.
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Dammit. I made a whole big post about this, and it disappeared.
Basically, Hill Giant wielding a longsword in one hand. CMB to be disarmed =32.
lvl 5 sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline. Cast true strike. Next turn, 10 feet away roll an 8 or more and disarm the hill giant. Also, put the sword 20 feet away from him through your party.
Long Limbs (Ex): At 3rd level, your reach increases by 5 feet whenever you are making a melee touch attack.
I'd reckon that a Disarm combat maneuver requires a regular melee attack.
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We still haven't seen whether CMB is supposed to reduced for later iterative attacks. I also ran into a question in my playtest game last Friday, when an opponent with Agile Maneuvers and a ludicrous Dex score was nevertheless getting attacked by a hidden PC, who was attempting a grapple. In d20, the touch attack against a flat-footed opponent would have been a straight DC 10 - but using CMB, the DC was 36. Needless to say, the PCs had no chance. This seems like a serious issue.
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Disarm is a touch attack.
I think it is a melee attack.
Alpha 2, p 61
You can attempt to disarm your opponent as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack.
3.5
As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent.
Opposed Rolls. You and the defender make opposed attack rolls with your respective weapons.
well, I hope we can get some clearer explanantion of how this all works with the next Alpha 3 (or at some point!)
If Jason/ the Pathfinder team is reading this, I would also suggest listing CMB modifiers in the same place attack modifiers are listed. For example, in the Halfling/ Gnome racial ability listings, the Small size attack BONUS is listed, but the CMB PENALTY for Small size is not, it's only mentioned elsewhere in the CMB section, which if someone is creating a character (and they're not accustomed to small characters) is very non-obvious...
The primary consideration here is that a combat maneuver is indeed an *attack roll*, instead of a "check". This applies to spells and such that give bonuses to attacks, vs. those that give bonuses to "checks". The 3.5 rules are very vague on this front, and I'm glad to see Pathfinder is not.
I would agree that a disarm attempt is not a "touch" attack. It's a combat maneuver attack, which all appear to be melee, but melee isn't a counter to touch, as in "melee touch attack".
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I've asked this before but have gotten contradictory answers. I really want to know: The Alpha 2 rules still read: "Determine Success: If your attack roll exceeds the DC of the target, your maneuver is a success and has the listed effect." (p. 61; emphasis mine). Shouldn't this be "equals or exceeds"? I've always thought you had to make the DC, not exceed it. The question has already come up in one of my games.
I'd also like to hear the answers to these questions and hope they're addressed in Alpha 3 (or the beta). So here's a bump.
So when I do a combat manuver towards an enemy i just take my d20 roll and modify it by my CMB and compare it to my enemies 15+CBM to check for succsess
Joey,that is correct. The text says make an attack roll and add your CMB to the result, but I don't believe its intent is to include your BAB and Str twice (that is don't add your CMB on top of your normal attack bonuses).
On a related note:
I had an interesting grappling related event occur this weekend in my game. Under the PFRPG system the CR of a 10th level barbarian is 8, a difficult challenge for a 6th level party but not overwhelming.
The 6th level barbarian in the party attempted to grapple this 10th level barbarian (of course not knowing his level). The CMB to do so was 29 (15+ 14 cmb). While raging the 6th level barbarian had a CMB of +11 (6 BAB + 5 Str). He needed an 18 to successfully grapple the enemy barbarian.
Under the old CR system I probably wouldn't have thought a thing about it since a CR 10 encounter is supposed to be overwhelming, but a CR 8 encounter is only supposed to be difficult.
The PC barbarian gave up attempting interesting combat manuevers against this foe because his chance of success was so low which he realized when he rolled a 16 and failed.
The thing is that if the enemy had been an 8th level barbarian he would have been a typical encounter, but the DC for the grapple would only drop by 2. So the PC would still have needed a 16 to succeed and he was stronger than his target.
I'm house ruling the CMB DC down to 11+CMB and upping all Improved CMB feats to +4 as a result of this weekends play.
EDIT: It occurs to me that I might be okay with changing the CMB system to be based on opposed rolls as well. With the new CR system this would assure that NPCs usually have a slight edge on PCs as opposed to the massive one they have now (+2 level and possibly higher attributes, more feats, as result, plus the +5 base CMB DC)
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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The 6th level barbarian in the party attempted to grapple this 10th level barbarian (of course not knowing his level). The CMB to do so was 29 (15+ 14 cmb). While raging the 6th level barbarian had a CMB of +11 (6 BAB + 5 Str). He needed an 18 to successfully grapple the enemy barbarian.
Wouldn't he need a 19 in order to exceed the DC of 15+CMB?
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I wonder about the first question as well. It should be d20 + CMB modifier + misc. modifier.
For the second part of this thread, about dexterity:
Look up the feat: agile maneuvers.
For my part, I dislike that dextrous people need to burn a feat to use dex, certain manuevers should be dex based not strength based...end of story.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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For my part, I dislike that dextrous people need to burn a feat to use dex, certain manuevers should be dex based not strength based...end of story.I wonder about the first question as well. It should be d20 + CMB modifier + misc. modifier.
For the second part of this thread, about dexterity:
Look up the feat: agile maneuvers.
I'd like to see a feat, for example, called 'Ranged Disarm' that would allow you to try to disarm an opponent using a ranged attack. Give it some penalties if you want but it is clearly a dex based feat.
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Two quick comments on the CMB as listed in Alpha 2:
1) Performing a combat maneuver refers to making an attack roll and then adding your CMB. As the CMB already includes your BAB and strength bonus, and my understanding of an attack roll does too, do these both get added twice in effect? Unless that was the intention it might be clearer to refer to a d20 roll + CMB
Attack roll is the d20, a normal attack used d20+BAB, a combat manuever uses d20+CMB
The 6th level barbarian in the party attempted to grapple this 10th level barbarian (of course not knowing his level). The CMB to do so was 29 (15+ 14 cmb). While raging the 6th level barbarian had a CMB of +11 (6 BAB + 5 Str). He needed an 18 to successfully grapple the enemy barbarian.Wouldn't he need a 19 in order to exceed the DC of 15+CMB?
If that's the case its even worse than I thought! But I treat the CMB DC like every other check in the game, you have to meet OR exceed it to succeed.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'd like to see a feat, for example, called 'Ranged Disarm' that would allow you to try to disarm an opponent using a ranged attack. Give it some penalties if you want but it is clearly a dex based feat.
I like it but should it be a feat. Anyone can throw something at someone with the hope of disarming them. I could throw my laptop at you right now in an attempt to make you drop that mouse. I wouldn't. But I could. Shouldn't it be a straight up, no-feat-required, combat maneuver?
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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If that's the case its even worse than I thought! But I treat the CMB DC like every other check in the game, you have to meet OR exceed it to succeed.The 6th level barbarian in the party attempted to grapple this 10th level barbarian (of course not knowing his level). The CMB to do so was 29 (15+ 14 cmb). While raging the 6th level barbarian had a CMB of +11 (6 BAB + 5 Str). He needed an 18 to successfully grapple the enemy barbarian.Wouldn't he need a 19 in order to exceed the DC of 15+CMB?
I've asked repeatedly whether the rules were just poorly worded but haven't gotten an answer. Perhaps the Alpha 3 will clear it up.
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I like it but should it be a feat. Anyone can throw something at someone with the hope of disarming them. I could throw my laptop at you right now in an attempt to make you drop that mouse. I wouldn't. But I could. Shouldn't it be a straight up, no-feat-required, combat maneuver?
Combat maneuvers are (so far) essentially melee actions. Performing some of them at range is either impossible (grapple) or much more difficult. I wouldn't think any combatant would have the skill to do it without specific training in melee disarm maneuvers (Improved Disarm), and in precise ranged combat (Point Blank Shot or Careful Targeting).
And you'll have to pry my mouse from my dead, cold hands. :-)