I know I asked these questions in the Alpha 1 section, but I'd rather the issues not get lost in the confusion and excitement of the new release.
1) Cost for bonded items is 1/2 price - the text does not specify if this is half the cost to make or half the cost to buy (both being listed as "costs" in the magic item section).
Comment: I saw a post in the Alpha 1 section indicating that this means 1/2 the cost to make, so that is how I am treating it.
2) The Replacement Ritual - does this replace the bonded item in its entirety, or merely give you a new bonded item? The text also still specifies that it is 200g / wizard level to replace, while the benefit (cast any spell the wizard knows) does not appear to be limited to spells gained in wizard levels. Thus, a wizard 3/ Master Specialist 10 would only need to pay 600 gold to replace a bonded item.
3) Can a bonded object be a staff that is also a weapon and thus enhanced as both? (thinking about the Staff of Power here)
Comment: Considering the Staff of Power was redone for Alpha 2, I'm assuming the two can be combined in a bonded object as well.
4) Aside from having the ability to cast the required spells, are there any other limitations (such as caster level) that apply to enhancing a bonded object?
5) Can anyone else use the bonded item?
Comment: I'm assuming no.
6) What does the following mean:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one
spell that the wizard knows,
Can the Wizard cast any spell out of his spell book (known spells) or can he only cast spells prepared for the day?
Comment: I'm using "spells known" to refer to spells in the wizard's spellbook.
I'm currently testing out the rules for a Wizard lvl 3 and a Wiz. 3/Master Specialist 6/Initiate of the 7 Veils 2, and thus answers to these questions would be most helpful to make sure that I'm using the bonded item correctly.
Well that is a good point obviously it means that a sorcerer is capable of casting any spell that he is capable of casting from the sorcerer/wizard list in the case of the Arcane Bloodline he is not limited to a known spell.
Well that is a good point obviously it means that a sorcerer is capable of casting any spell that he is capable of casting from the sorcerer/wizard list in the case of the Arcane Bloodline he is not limited to a known spell.
Ah... this brings up another question.
#6(b): Can a Wizard/Sorcerer use the bonded object to cast a spell of a higher level than they can prepare, if they "know" the spell? (for instance, a Wizard who happens to have copied a 3rd level spell into his spell book, but can only cast 2nd level spells)?
The relevant portion of the Alpha 2 rules:
A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one
spell that the wizard knows, just as if the wizard had cast
it. This spell cannot be modified by metamagic feats or
other abilities. The bonded object cannot be used to cast
spells from the wizard’s prohibited schools.
Doesn't really clarify this.
I don't think the Sorcerer would have this issue, as they learn a set number of spells per level and that doesn't really change or include spells of higher level, but I haven't looked too closely.
As currently written under the rules I would say yes. Although it is doubtful most DMs would let that first level sorcerer cast Shapechange or Timestop or Limited Wish with his bonded object just because they are on his spell list.
As currently written under the rules I would say yes. Although it is doubtful most DMs would let that first level sorcerer cast Shapechange or Timestop or Limited Wish with his bonded object just because they are on his spell list.
After looking at the description for Sorcerers, I don't think this is a problem.
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A
sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two
1st-level spells of your choice. At each new sorcerer level,
she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table
4–9. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer
knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers
on Table 4–9 are fixed.) These new spells can be common
spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they
can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some
understanding of through study. The sorcerer can’t use
this latter method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a
faster rate, however.
The Sorcerer only knows a select few spells, chosen from the sorc/wiz list. Thus, the bonded object can only ever be used to cast a spell the sorcerer has chosen as a "known" spell.
Wizards, on the other hand, can copy spells from spell books to learn them. Thus, a level 3 wizard who gets a spellbook belonging to a level 5 wizard, will suddenly learn level 3 spells... even though he is 2 levels away from being able to cast them normally. These "known" spells, per the RAW, would be fair game for the bonded object, it seems.
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Wizards, on the other hand, can copy spells from spell books to learn them. Thus, a level 3 wizard who gets a spellbook belonging to a level 5 wizard, will suddenly learn level 3 spells... even though he is 2 levels away from being able to cast them normally. These "known" spells, per the RAW, would be fair game for the bonded object, it seems.
I may be missing something, but where does it mention that a wizard would be able to learn a spell that they are unable to cast? I noticed that the PHB specifically states that the 2 spells automatically learned at each level must be of spell levels the wizard can cast, while such language is not mentioned for independent research. Is this a loophole that I have not had pointed out before? My understanding had always been a wizard would not be able to learn a spell that they could not cast...
From Alpha Rules pg. 32:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must
have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. ...Like other spellcasters, a wizard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given on Table 4–10. ...
Unlike a bard or sorcerer, a wizard may know any number of spells. He must choose and prepare his spells ahead of time by getting a good night’s sleep and spending 1 hour studying his spellbook. While studying, the wizard decides which spells to prepare.
(emphasis added).
As I don't recall anything in Alpha 2 on copying spells from spellbooks, I turn to the SRD:
A wizard can also add a spell to her book whenever she encounters one on a magic scroll or in another wizard’s spellbook. No matter what the spell’s source, the wizard must first decipher the magical writing (see Arcane Magical Writings, above). Next, she must spend a day studying the spell. At the end of the day, she must make a Spellcraft check (DC 15 + spell’s level). A wizard who has specialized in a school of spells gains a +2 bonus on the Spellcraft check if the new spell is from her specialty school. She cannot, however, learn any spells from her prohibited schools. If the check succeeds, the wizard understands the spell and can copy it into her spellbook (see Writing a New Spell into a Spellbook, below). The process leaves a spellbook that was copied from unharmed, but a spell successfully copied from a magic scroll disappears from the parchment.
(emphasis mine).
Since there is no limit on how many spells a wizard may know; and there is no restriction in the SRD on copying spells from spellbooks about those spells being within the range the wizard can cast, it seems the only limitation is that the Wizard have an Int. = 10+ spell level. Not too terribly difficult (My level 4 Wizard has a 19 Int... so I can technically learn a 9th level spell. If I can make the Spellcraft check to copy it (DC 24; my current skill is 4 ranks+3 (class skill bonus) +4 (Int) +2 (CotCT background trait bonus) = 13, I need to roll an 11 to learn a 9th level spell at level 4).
So... it is possible to add a 9th level spell to a wizard's spellbook at 4th level. That spell is considered "known" and thus seems like fair game for casting with a bonded object.
It does say that the spell is cast as if the wizard had cast it, so it seems to me to stand to reason that if the wizard is still unable to cast a spell of that level, then they could not cast it through their bonded object.
It does say that the spell is cast as if the wizard had cast it, so it seems to me to stand to reason that if the wizard is still unable to cast a spell of that level, then they could not cast it through their bonded object.
Or does "as if the wizard had cast it" mean use the wizard's Int. to set the save DC, Caster level to determine duration, etc.? This would be the same as having a Magical Staff with a spell on it of a higher level than you can cast... you can still use the staff.
I can see it going both ways. And, personally, I think it should probably be limited to the spells you can cast. However, it doesn't say that, and thus is a question.
One of the more frustrating aspects of the bonded item is that it has a lot of unanswered questions... I was hoping that there would be some clarification in Alpha 2, but alas, no.
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1) Cost for bonded items is 1/2 price - the text does not specify if this is half the cost to make or half the cost to buy (both being listed as "costs" in the magic item section).
Let's see if I can't help. 1/2 cost I think you're referring to...
"A wzard can enchant his bonded object as if he.... Any powers added to his bonded object are done so at half the normal cost."
If there's a different text I'm missing it.
This text does not refer to item creation. You cant create an item and bond with it at the same time.. neither does it refer to an object you're buying.. since you're not bond with it either. :)
This text refers to page 115 "Adding New Abilities" since it refers to enhancing an item. Basically if you have a bonded item that's magical, you can make it more magical. A +1 Quarter staff can be made into a +2 Quarter staff. (Amiri could also seek out a Wizard to enhance her sword and she'd never have to get a new one with this neat rule... though it's not a bonded item so never mind that. :) )
2) The Replacement Ritual - does this replace the bonded item in its entirety, or merely give you a new bonded item? The text also still specifies that it is 200g / wizard level to replace, while the benefit (cast any spell the wizard knows) does not appear to be limited to spells gained in wizard levels. Thus, a wizard 3/ Master Specialist 10 would only need to pay 600 gold to replace a bonded item.
I'm guess that it just recreates the destroyed item. And yes it would work as you describe.
3) Can a bonded object be a staff that is also a weapon and thus enhanced as both? (thinking about the Staff of Power here)
Yes it can, but even with 1/2 cost, it's pretty expensive. :)
4) Aside from having the ability to cast the required spells, are there any other limitations (such as caster level) that apply to enhancing a bonded object?
Page 115.
5) Can anyone else use the bonded item?
Nothing says no one can't, but I think the free casting thing goes to to when the wizard has it in his hand. A floating sword that can cast fireball isn't something I want to see in my games. :)
6) What does the following mean:Can the Wizard cast any spell out of his spell book (known spells) or can he only cast spells prepared for the day? Comment: I'm using "spells known" to refer to spells in the wizard's spellbook.A bonded object can be used once per day to cast any one
spell that the wizard knows,
There's 2 ways this could be interpreted.
1) Anything in his spellbook.
2) Anything he prepared that day.
I think the prepared that day is the best route.
Thanks for the attempt at answering my questions...
1) Cost for bonded items is 1/2 price - the text does not specify if this is half the cost to make or half the cost to buy (both being listed as "costs" in the magic item section).Let's see if I can't help. 1/2 cost I think you're referring to...
"A wzard can enchant his bonded object as if he.... Any powers added to his bonded object are done so at half the normal cost."
If there's a different text I'm missing it.
This text does not refer to item creation. You cant create an item and bond with it at the same time.. neither does it refer to an object you're buying.. since you're not bond with it either. :)
This text refers to page 115 "Adding New Abilities" since it refers to enhancing an item. Basically if you have a bonded item that's magical, you can make it more magical. A +1 Quarter staff can be made into a +2 Quarter staff. (Amiri could also seek out a Wizard to enhance her sword and she'd never have to get a new one with this neat rule... though it's not a bonded item so never mind that. :) )
I see the logic here...problem is this suggests that you need to get a magic item to start and then go up from there. You're not going to be able to afford to buy a magic item at level 1. So would that mean you can't have a bonded item at level 1? Or that when you can afford to buy a magical item, you "lose" your first one, buy a magic one and then enhance it.
It seems to me that you should be able to enhance it from non-magical to magical. In which case you aren't adding abilities to a magical object, but are instead making something magical. Crafting.
I'm fine with the 1/2 the cost to add new abilities or craft the magic item. I just think this should be spelled out more clearly in the book.
3) Can a bonded object be a staff that is also a weapon and thus enhanced as both? (thinking about the Staff of Power here)Yes it can, but even with 1/2 cost, it's pretty expensive. :)
Well, if I did my math right, it's 56,750g for a Staff of Power. Expensive? Absolutely. But it's still pretty cheap compared to the sale price of something like that.
There's 2 ways this could be interpreted.1) Anything in his spellbook.
2) Anything he prepared that day.I think the prepared that day is the best route.
As it refers to spells the wizard knows and not spells the wizard prepared, I'm going to go with anything in the spellbook (Wizards are supposed to be able to have access to a wide variety of spells... this would seem to go along with that). At least until I see something different in the Alpha rules or a comment from Jason.
That still leaves the question of whether spells known includes spells of a higher level than you can normally cast. Obviously, this problem is avoided with the spells prepared version.
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Let me try and hit on a couple of these questions too.
For someone else using the item: It seems reasonable that someone could, if they had the ability to use the item normally(for instance, if you had a staff of necromancy built as your object, someone who couldn't normally use a staff of necromancy would just have a normal staff in their hands. But if you had a +2 flaming burst sword, then when the fighter grabs it, thats what they have.) However, don't forget the limitation that when you are casting spells without your bonded object at hand you risk spell failure, admittedly the risk lessens with time(or lower level spells) but its always still there.
For the half cost aspect: This seems to refer specifically to the fact that you are treated as if you had any item creation feats when it comes to that specific object, so the half cost would come from the item creation costs that normally are involved, presuming you meet all other requirements(spells, caster level, ect).
Finally, spells known seems to imply that they are any spells in the wizards spell book. This to me is where the real power of the bonded object comes from. It basically allows a wizard to have one empty slot open that he can fill and cast without preparation, giving him a great deal more spontaneity, for when you wish you had prepped that one spell you didn't know you were going to need. Its a once a day ability, so doesn't seem too over powering. As for the sorc, spells known seems to imply spells they have learned, meaning it acts almost like one additional casting of whatever spell level you happen to need that day.
There is no explicit mentioning that you can't use this to cast a spell higher then the levels you personally are able to cast, but I tend to lean towards that being implied in the statement that its cast just as if the wizard himself had cast it. If the wizard is unable to cast the spell, then he is not able to use the staff to either.
-Tarlane
Let me try and hit on a couple of these questions too.
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For the half cost aspect: This seems to refer specifically to the fact that you are treated as if you had any item creation feats when it comes to that specific object, so the half cost would come from the item creation costs that normally are involved, presuming you meet all other requirements(spells, caster level, ect).
Are you saying 1/2 the cost to create or that the 1/2 cost is the cost t create? Example, Staff of Power is about 230,000 gold. The cost to create is 115,000 gold (going off of memory here). So, to create a Staff of Power bonded item, is the cost 115,000 gold or 60,000 gold (1/2 the cost to create)? I thought I saw Jason post in the Alpha 1 forum that it's 1/2 the cost to create (60,000 gold).
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*face palms*
How is an item you haven't created yet your bond item? A Wizard can't afford a Masterwork item at level 1 any more then he can afford a magic item, so it's not like he buys the masterwork item a head of time and uses the item creation rules later to make it a magic item.
The way it's worded has nothing to do with magic item creation.
Perhaps the answer lines in the last few lines about replacing it. Perhaps those rules are meant to allow you to take a new bonded object (even if the old one isn't lost) as well.
*face palms*
How is an item you haven't created yet your bond item? A Wizard can't afford a Masterwork item at level 1 any more then he can afford a magic item, so it's not like he buys the masterwork item a head of time and uses the item creation rules later to make it a magic item.
The way it's worded has nothing to do with magic item creation.
Perhaps the answer lines in the last few lines about replacing it. Perhaps those rules are meant to allow you to take a new bonded object (even if the old one isn't lost) as well.
Well, the bonded object is a level 1 class ability. Seems to me that it was intended to be used at level 1.
I've come up with 2 options.
First, when you get a familiar, I'm not aware of a cost for the familiar. You summon the toad, it shows up, instant familiar. No cost. But, a no cost masterwork item might be a bit much to just hand out.
Alternative #2 - you can enhance the object at 1/2 the normal cost of enhancing. So... going to the SRD:
Creating Masterwork Items
You can make a masterwork item—a weapon, suit of armor, shield, or tool that conveys a bonus on its use through its exceptional craftsmanship, not through being magical. To create a masterwork item, you create the masterwork component as if it were a separate item in addition to the standard item. The masterwork component has its own price (300 gp for a weapon or 150 gp for a suit of armor or a shield) and a Craft DC of 20. Once both the standard component and the masterwork component are completed, the masterwork item is finished. Note: The cost you pay for the masterwork component is one-third of the given amount, just as it is for the cost in raw materials.
(emphasis added).
According to the SRD, it costs 100 gold to make a mastercraft weapon and 50 gold to make a mastercraft something else. Per Jason's comment in the Alpha 1 forum, you pay 1/2 that. So 50 gold to make a mastercraft weapon and 25 gold to make a mastercraft something else.
I don't recall what a Wizard's starting gold is... but it should be enough to cover either. Granted, that doesn't leave much gold for anything else. But that's how I did it at level 1 (with a staff).
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Again the logic is flaw. If you're making it, it can't be your bond item yet. It doesn't exist. Hence no 1/2 cost.
At first level you bond to a mundate item. You get the free casting ability. You find, create, or buy a better item at later levels. You pay 200g per level to make the better item your new bond item.
Wizard starts with 75 gold average or 3d4x10.
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Just as with a familiar, wouldn't you presume that the wizard is starting 1st level with the item they are bonded to already in their possession? Therefore, it would just be the costs to further enhance said item that they would need to worry about.
For example, let's say you have a hogwart-minded wizard, and you select "wand" as your item to be bonded to. At first level, you have a wand (appearance as you choose, for the sake of argument let's say it's carved from ivory tusk) that you use as part of your spellcasting (for if you do not have it in hand, you must make a Spellcraft DC 21 to cast your potent 1-level spells). While the wand itself is not magical, once per day you may use it to cast any spell that you currently know (handy for when you've exhausted your prepared spells, or if you are caught off-guard and wish you had prepared a different selection...).
As you adventure, you begin to amass treasure and can go about the task of enchanting your wand so that it can do more than just provide "back-up". Having found "magic missile" to be undoubtably handy, your wizard spends a day, and enchants his wand with 50 charges of level-1 "magic missile", costing him 187gp, 5sp to enchant (half the cost it would normally take). Now, the bonded wand also has the properties of a wand of magic-missile, and once all 50 charges become expended it reverts back to being it's original nonmagical form - but still the bonded item required for your spellcasting.
Again the logic is flaw. If you're making it, it can't be your bond item yet. It doesn't exist. Hence no 1/2 cost.
At first level you bond to a mundate item. You get the free casting ability. You find, create, or buy a better item at later levels. You pay 200g per level to make the better item your new bond item.
Wizard starts with 75 gold average or 3d4x10.
I'm not seeing a flaw here. One does not start magically at level 1 ready to adventure. There was a life, a childhood, leading up to that becoming level 1 and setting off on adventure. During that time you accumulated 75 gold pieces worth of stuff, you accumulated a backstory, you learned all those powerful level 1 abilities. So upon reaching level 1 you bond with your quarterstaff that you find hiking in the woods, and you spend 50 of your 75 gold enhancing it to masterwork quality. Done.
Of course, this requires that you have 8 hours before the game starts as a level 1 character to get the enhancement out of the way... but that should be pretty easy.
Although... considering the cost is 25 to 50 gold pieces to the level 1 player... may as well just gift the masterwork item (other classes start with a lot more gold, likely due to the fact that they need to buy more stuff than a wizard used to need).
Just to avoid a return to 1e, as of 3.0 (and 3.5, and 3.PF), you don't "enchant" an object anymore; objects, by definition, are immune to mind-affecting spells. You "enhance" items. That's one change in terminology that made good sense to me; I never understood why the old "enchant an item" was an "enchantment" spell.
In normal conversation, it's no big deal, but in the printed rules I'd VERY much like to see this care and precision carry over into Pathfinder as well - it shows good professionalism, rules knowledge, and tradecraft.
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Just to avoid a return to 1e, as of 3.0 (and 3.5, and 3.PF), you don't "enchant" an object anymore; objects, by definition, are immune to mind-affecting spells. You "enhance" items. That's one change in terminology that made good sense to me; I never understood why the old "enchant an item" was an "enchantment" spell.
In normal conversation, it's no big deal, but in the printed rules I'd VERY much like to see this care and precision carry over into Pathfinder as well - it shows good professionalism, rules knowledge, and tradecraft.
Fair enough; in speaking of magical things, "enchanting" does not always pertain to mind-effects, and therefore and item (or place) could be "enchanted". With Enchantment being a classification of spells and effects, I can see that it would cause confusion to not keep the terms exclusive.
Fair enough; in speaking of magical things, "enchanting" does not always pertain to mind-effects, and therefore and item (or place) could be "enchanted". With Enchantment being a classification of spells and effects, I can see that it would cause confusion to not keep the terms exclusive.
Exactly! In English, people, places, items, critters -- heck, even time periods -- can all be "enchanted." But English doesn't have defined schools of magic. I remember there being a long exposition about this somewhere, when 3.0 came out, and a big push to "retrain" everyone not to say "enchant an item" when talking about game mechanics. I'll admit it took me years to break the habit.
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Fair enough; in speaking of magical things, "enchanting" does not always pertain to mind-effects, and therefore and item (or place) could be "enchanted". With Enchantment being a classification of spells and effects, I can see that it would cause confusion to not keep the terms exclusive.Exactly! In English, people, places, items, critters -- heck, even time periods -- can all be "enchanted." But English doesn't have defined schools of magic. I remember there being a long exposition about this somewhere, when 3.0 came out, and a big push to "retrain" everyone not to say "enchant an item" when talking about game mechanics. I'll admit it took me years to break the habit.
I didn't get that memo. We still speak of "enchanting items" and "enchanted places of power". I'm surprised the resident rules lawyer hadn't pointed that out to me. :)
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I'm not seeing a flaw here. One does not start magically at level 1 ready to adventure. There was a life, a childhood, leading up to that becoming level 1 and setting off on adventure. During that time you accumulated 75 gold pieces worth of stuff, you accumulated a backstory, you learned all those powerful level 1 abilities.
Exactly; this also speaks of why a level-1 wizard starts with a spell book that, by all rights, costs more than most party member's starting gear (poor monk). Everything that you begin with at first level is part of your character's backstory, and presumably your bonded item came into your possession at the same time as the tome you study your spells from.
Director of Brand Strategy
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There is no explicit mentioning that you can't use this to cast a spell higher then the levels you personally are able to cast, but I tend to lean towards that being implied in the statement that its cast just as if the wizard himself had cast it. If the wizard is unable to cast the spell, then he is not able to use the staff to either.
It would be the same if his INT score wasn't high enough to allow for higher level spellcasting. I think you're right in this. Otherwise you could buy a high level scroll one time and cast it once a day forever. No way.
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If this power is intended for Wizards to start out with a Masterwork Longsword and make it a Magic weapon a few levels later, it really needs to get rewritten.
True enough; the basis for the bonded item could use clarification. While having a staff or wand (or even ring) to begin the game, starting with a masterwork double-sword does begin to break down the intent.
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True enough; the basis for the bonded item could use clarification. While having a staff or wand (or even ring) to begin the game, starting with a masterwork double-sword does begin to break down the intent.
Not really worried about double-sword.. it's not a great weapon for Hand of the Apprenticed. :)
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It could be a problem if a crafty munchkin decided to sell his masterwork item and purchase a less-expensive item to bond to. Not that such a process couldn't be frakked by an equally crafty DM.
Well the reason it's so cheap it they're claiming a regular item that bond to the wizard being made into a masterwork item gets the 1/2 bonus. That's the only reason the wizard can start with the masterwork weapon because it's bond to him. If he sells it, he's out his bond item.
If this power is intended for Wizards to start out with a Masterwork Longsword and make it a Magic weapon a few levels later, it really needs to get rewritten.
The problem is, if you don't start with a masterwork item... it can never be enhanced. And if you lose it you can "replace" it... which when discussed above the replacement was suggested to be exactly what you lost.
So, you start with a normal longsword. You can't enhance it, it's not masterwork. You get to level 3 and have saved up to enhance it... realizing you can't, you chuck it into the river. It's lost. GREAT! 600 gold later you summon a normal longsword. You're now screwed.
As for the Hand of the Apprentice. It works like "Mage Hand". Per SRD, Mage hand can't lift magical items... so a magic sword really wouldn't do you any good there (unless they are changing that). Plus, while you're bonded item is dancing around 30' away, you are at a severe disadvantage in casting spells. Which is where Hand of the Apprentice starts to get fuzzy. Is it a standard action or a move action to concentrate on Hand of the Apprentice? Does the sword take move actions to move and a standard action to attack? Or can it move out to 30' as a free action and attack as part of the concentration?
I'm amused by the fact that, by the RAW, anyone with Spellcraft can learn spells they can't cast. With Bonded Object, you can cast one of those spells.
This means that while a Sorcerer can't cast spells learned by Spellcraft with his Sorcerer spell slots, he can cast them using his bonded object.
I also imagine that a one-level dip into Sorcerer or Wizard will be fairly common for most classes.
I'm amused by the fact that, by the RAW, anyone with Spellcraft can learn spells they can't cast. With Bonded Object, you can cast one of those spells.
This means that while a Sorcerer can't cast spells learned by Spellcraft with his Sorcerer spell slots, he can cast them using his bonded object.
I also imagine that a one-level dip into Sorcerer or Wizard will be fairly common for most classes.
While a Sorcerer can learn spells through spellcraft, the Sorcerer can't learn spells any faster than the spells learned through leveling.
These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study. The sorcerer can’t use this latter method of spell acquisition to learn spells at a
faster rate, however.
So, I don't see this being a problem for a Sorcerer. If they find a spellbook at level 3, they can study it using Spellcraft... but they can't learn any new spells from it until level 4.
The Wizard, on the other hand, has no such limitation. And thus, the wizard who can make a spellcraft check of 24 can cast a 9th level spell once per day. I have a level 4 Wizard who can do that by taking a ten.
While a Sorcerer can learn spells through spellcraft, the Sorcerer can't learn spells any faster than the spells learned through leveling.I'm amused by the fact that, by the RAW, anyone with Spellcraft can learn spells they can't cast. With Bonded Object, you can cast one of those spells.
This means that while a Sorcerer can't cast spells learned by Spellcraft with his Sorcerer spell slots, he can cast them using his bonded object.
I also imagine that a one-level dip into Sorcerer or Wizard will be fairly common for most classes.
Again, he can't learn more spells for his Sorcerer spellcasting. He can still learn spells that don't become part of his Sorcerer Spells Known.
Its silly, but thats the way the Spellcraft skill is written.
While a Sorcerer can learn spells through spellcraft, the Sorcerer can't learn spells any faster than the spells learned through leveling.
Again, he can't learn more spells for his Sorcerer spellcasting. He can still learn spells that don't become part of his Sorcerer Spells Known.
Its silly, but thats the way the Spellcraft skill is written.
If he can't learn the spell faster than the class ability allows him to... how does he "know" the spell any sooner?
The spellcraft rules say you can learn a new spell... but there's nothing about the time it takes in there. When you've got two rules that both apply to learning spells, I would think they should be read to be consistent with one another. I've never seen anything to indicate that there are spells known for x purpose, and spells known for y purpose, and that these are different lists. It's always been spells known, or spells not know. If you know it, then you can use it for whatever purposes you can use a spell known for. If you don't know it, you can't use it.
It seems you're stretching spellcraft and disregarding the Sorcerer class abilities to intentionally reach a silly result. I'm not sure that the wizard doing the same trick is any less silly... but at least it's not a stretch of what's written.
I haven't started playtesting these rules yet, but here's how I as a GM would rule on these issues...
Obviously, having a 4th level wizard running around casting Wish once per day from his wand is abusive. I wouldn't let a wizard use a bonded item to cast any spell that he couldn't cast without the item.
As for the item being masterwork, I'd just give the wizard/sorcerer a pass on this one, and let him make his non-masterwork bonded sword into a +1 sword if he wanted to. It's already a bonded item, it's special enough.
"replace" is a vague word here, does it mean the wizard summons the original item back, or does he bond to a new item? I'd probably rule that the wizard bonds to a new item, and the old bonded item (wherever it may be) immediately loses its bond, and loses all powers the bonded wizard added to it. This prevents the wizard from using the bond to cheaply produce items for other characters.
I've never seen anything to indicate that there are spells known for x purpose, and spells known for y purpose, and that these are different lists. It's always been spells known, or spells not know. If you know it, then you can use it for whatever purposes you can use a spell known for. If you don't know it, you can't use it.
Spell lists never overlap. Take a Sorcerer with Wizard levels, for example....there is no reason why knowing a spell from one list translates to another...otherwise, a Wizard with Sorcerer spells could memorize his Sorcerer spells and a Sorcerer could cast his Wizard spells with his slots, and both would take a full round to use metamagic. They are both arcane spells from the same list, so if they weren't handled differently then you'd have overlap.
By the same token, if someone gets a arcane Sorcerer spell from their list by some weird means (like a Naga who gets free cleric spells), these spells can't be added to the Wizard or Sorcerer list even though its a Wizard or Sorcerer spell for the Naga.
In short, the rules are explicit that a Sorcerer can't increase his spells known for his Sorcerer spellcasting except by leveling. They aren't explicit that he couldn't learn spells for Wizard spellcasting (regardless if he has any or not).
I agree its an absurd result, but the point of any playtest is to point out the absurd for correction.