RPG Superstar 2013
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Some of these seem out of balance to me, while some seem completely useless. I write about this under the pretext of playtest, because my character in Rob McCreary's Iskandria PBM disdains his own first-level ability. In looking over the other abilities (I have dreams of playing a high-powered Malconvoker one day), I have some questions and concernes about these abilities. Others are welcome to chime in or disagree with me here. Hopefully there will be some comments that Paizo's team find helpful as they continue to design the future World's Most Popular Role-playing Game.
Hey - confirm for me that most of these abilities ahouls be based on wizard level and not caster level. Otherwise, we are really rewarding the multiclass wizard a lot. The inevitable mystic theurge will bring the house down.
Abjurers: First level ability is no good. A standard action for an ability that lasts one round, and likely duplicates a benefit for your party that can't stack? I can't see this getting much use. I think most wizards would rather cast spells. Perhaps if it were a swift or immediate action, or lsated one round per (wizard) or (caster) level.
The rest of the Abjurer's abilities seems fun and balanced. That dude is taking no energy damage though, so it might be a little strong. I'll join a 20th level playtest to find out!
Conjurers are studs. I fear the 20th level ability might be too much. I know it has me licking my chops over the 20 level playtest and thinking 'malconvoker'. Maybe a party of 6 wizards in this playtest. Mmm.
DivinersThe diviner's first-level ability lasts three rounds, and provides a bonus equal to caster level on an ability, attack or other check. Stronger than the abjurer. After 4th level, I fear diviners with Quickened Spell-like Ability: Truestrike. That's hard. As a DM, I am going to frustrate a lot of Diviners by squirreling my wauy out of their 20th level ability. Campaigns must have secrets.
Enchanters Strong bonus for cross-classers! And permanent dominate monster[/b] is STRONG! I'll look up whether this spell has a HD limitation on it, but currently, this SLA makes a strong answer to the debate in that other thread about Cha or Int being used for DCs. Clearly this ability rocks the house, and skying your Int bonus would be a big priority.
Evocation Suck it, warmage! So, meteor swarm deals 24d6+120 points of damage? Sudden Empower, anyone? I think +1/die is sufficient, since at higher levels you deal more dice. I shudder at the thought of quickened magic missiles dealing out 5d4+30 points of force damage. This guy is an even beter argument for keeping SLAs as is, since nothing takes the bad guys to the woodshed like free [i]chain lightnings, prismatic sprays, and meteor swarms The elemental power ability is neat, and not overpowered. Just maybe the rest of him.
Illusionist The specialist ability is clever, useful, and balanced. It also motivates the character to be a real illusionist, instead of a battery of invisibility and phantasmal killer spells. The 20th level ability is fun and not over-powered. I would think we need a rule about bonuses to disguise checks. People often believe their eyes, but some wizards are terrible actors.
Necromancers Hoochi mama! 8 HD/level! Your 7th level wizard can animate 9 troll skeletons (make sure they go on their own initiative!) I played this game before: it's called Diablo 2. And, yes, your screen will also slow down and you'll be dead before you get back up to your normal processing speed. I am not sure how I would fix this. A HD cap just means more humans skeletons to tie up turns. As an NPC, this guy is great. As a PC, I worry about the sanity of players who surround themselves withmore NPC skeletons than actual friends. And anyone who knows me will now accuse me of being that guy, but oh well.
Moving on, grave touch is awesome. Not too powerful, but definitely mean-spirited. I don't like the 20th lvl ability much. I think players should be able to choose humanity despite their crimes against it, and I think anyone that chooses undeath deserves to be vulnerable to positive energy just like the rest of his kin. Also, I have always thought the deck was kind of stacked against undead, so I think of this ability as much a penalty as I do a bonus. But we can have that discussion later.
Tranmuters Another big reward for multiclassers, but then should transmuters be multiclassers? Hmmm. Telekinetic fist is cool..a little untyped damage to throw in, plus it rocks cinematically. Like the staff fight in Fellowship of the Ring. I'd like it to be stated somewhere that these abilities you can use for non-consecutive rounds per day are usable as free or swift actions. Fluid form is boss, just remember that if we're using caster levels and not wizard levels, this class rewards the wizard/fighter type like no other. ("I charge 240 feet with Spring Attack and Two-Weapon Rend.")
Universalists I never had much use for these guys, but having a None of the Above category is reasonable, and the revised abilities I think capture good flavor. Most of your world's wizards might be specialists, but then a few will not. They have no restrictions on spells, and gain awesome bonuses at higher level. The first level ability seems weak, until you realize that the wizard can move away from his target and cease concentrating after he picks a better spot. Also, you don't have to fight. You might just need to have a mage hand handy at will. I question the wish spells. Nothing sees unuse like a 5000 xp component.
Those are my thoughts on the balances of the specialist abilities. Mostly, they refer to beginning or ending abilities. The middle abilities - for the most part - all seem balancd, and to be expected of a wizard with that specialty.
I do think the added abilities are fun and awesome in concept. I think more people might play wizards and clerics, and if you changed 'caster level' to 'wizard level' a few times, they would ride the wizard class all the way up more often. Otherwise, I fear some very verypowerful characters could pick their way through different classes and always outshine their companions.
But I am just me, and I haven't playtested any of this. Tell me what you think.
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Hey - confirm for me that most of these abilities ahouls be based on wizard level and not caster level. Otherwise, we are really rewarding the multiclass wizard a lot. The inevitable mystic theurge will bring the house down.
It does say "the wizard's level is used when determining the caster level of these effects" (p.46, "Arcane Schools"), but I agree it could be spelled out more clearly.
Abjurers: First level ability is no good. A standard action for an ability that lasts one round, and likely duplicates a benefit for your party that can't stack? I can't see this getting much use. I think most wizards would rather cast spells. Perhaps if it were a swift or immediate action, or lsated one round per (wizard) or (caster) level.
Why do you think it won't stack? Are you assuming that everyone will have a ring of protection at some point? (Which may be a good point, but certainly not everyone at lower levels.) I think it's also a standard action because most (all?) of the other specialist abilities are standard actions. It's not supposed to be used instead of spells; I believe the intent is to give the wizard a useful ability to use once he has run out of spells. Changing the speed of the action or the duration would negate that design function, IMO.
Evocation: Suck it, warmage! So, meteor swarm deals 24d6+120 points of damage? Sudden Empower, anyone? I think +1/die is sufficient, since at higher levels you deal more dice. I shudder at the thought of quickened magic missiles dealing out 5d4+30 points of force damage.
Hmm, I don't think so. The meteor swarm would deal 24d6+5 points of damage at 20th level. The bonus is +5 per spell, not +5 per die. Much weaker than you're reading it.
Would giving the Necromancer Rebuke Undead as special power too powerful?
Would giving the Necromancer Rebuke Undead as special power too powerful?
Absolutely not. Indeed it would merely underline how lame Necromancy Specialists are when Clerics already get Necromancy Specialization for free with their cheerios and also:
- Have a better hit die.
- Have two good Saves.
- Have a better BAB.
- Automagically know every spell on their list instead of worrying about spellbooks.
- Can cast in heavy armor.
- Have more weapon proficiencies.
- Have more armor proficiencies.
- Have more spells per day.
Any time you cast a spell or use an ability as a Wizard and it is the same or worse as something a Cleric could do, you are a sucker who is getting badly ripped off.
-Frank
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RPG Superstar 2013
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My bad. I misread that ability, and apologize to warmages everywhere. I wonder now if it isn't under-powered. +5 damage compared to +5 to an ability score is not close.
At later levels, everyone will have some kind of deflection bonus, though it isn't always a ring. Even if not, I would never want to party's AC to be dependent on 1)staying withing 10 feet of the wizard, and 2)the wizard not casting any spells.
Maybe the intent is to give the wizard some protection once he's out of spells, but there's a lot of great classes, feats and abilities out there to prevent that, plus the slew of extra feats and class abilities you get justfor playing Pathfinder instead of DnD.
Aside from all that, it still pales in comparison to the 1st level abilities of the other classes. I think there's a cleverer way to show off abjurers. Maybe give them a ray of resistance that beefs up one dude's next save for three rounds.
I think turning or rebuking undead helps non-evil people play necromancers, and is both useful and not overpowered. Great suggestion!
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Completely disagree. Wizards make the best necromancers, and have the best utility and offensive spells. Wizards were cut down to size a bit from 3.0 to 3.5, while other classes were expanded and made better. Most gaming groups have plenty of people willing to play an arcane spell-caster, but fewer willing to play the cleric. Buff, heal. Buff, heal. A cleric should be more than this, but that comes with clever play and good role playing. The class in and of itself isn't superior to any other.
Turning or rebuking undead is also not that great an ability. Most people would rather fight. As often as not, turning undead is either done when they're numerous and a nuissance and it's meant to save time, or when it's desperate and the party should have made different choices or rolled better when combat started.
But it is a neat twist to have your necromancer turning or rebuking undead, and it's more balanced than 8 hd of undead per caster level.
Wizards make the best necromancers
That is solidly factually incorrect.
Short version: Clerics get more, better undead, and they can produce them starting at a lower level, and they are personally more resilient while doing so. A Wizard has cool abilities at his disposal (Magic Jar, for example), but Clerics are still better than you if your plan involves an army of the dead.
-Frank
Why do you think it won't stack? Are you assuming that everyone will have a ring of protection at some point? (Which may be a good point, but certainly not everyone at lower levels.) I think it's also a standard action because most (all?) of the other specialist abilities are standard actions. It's not supposed to be used instead of spells; I believe the intent is to give the wizard a useful ability to use once he has run out of spells. Changing the speed of the action or the duration would negate that design function, IMO.
Just a comment here... the game pretty much assumes that you will have magic items after a certain point. Rings of Deflection are pretty standard (in my experience) in the magic items you get/find first.
Then there's the question of use. When would a wizard feel the need to cast this? When he knows for certain that he will be attacked in the next round. So, the Wizard's one option is to cast a spell granting a +1 to +5 (but, honestly, by the time you're level 20, if you don't have a Ring of Prot. +5, something is wrong, so this is only useful at low levels). Thus, we are looking at situations where that extra +1 or +2 to AC is the best choice when the Wizard is about to get hit.
If the Wizard is about to get hit, isn't a full round withdrawal safer? Or perhaps casting a spell that does damage? Even a cantrip will hurt the attacker some. I would only use this if this was my absolute last option and I thought the +1 to AC would actually matter (and if I'm facing down someone who is going to be able to hit me, they will likely do it by more than +1).
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Actually, the ability grants the deflection bonus to all allies within 10 feet. Is it as good as a spell? No, but when the wizard is out of spells, it can be a useful action to help buff the other party members instead of hiding in a corner.
That said, I do think it's a good point about higher levels. Yes, most people probably will have rings of protection or something similar at higher levels, making the ability of lesser utility. Then again, the wizard will also have more (and powerful) spells at higher levels, meaning he won't sun out of them as soon.
So yeah, useful at lower levels, not so useful at higher levels.
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RPG Superstar 2013
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Wow. Solidly, factually incorrect. You'd wonder why I would bother to retort.
Hey - there's a lot more to necromancy than raising minions that slow down the game and just get axe-murdered with easy magic. Far and away, people play wizard necromancers more than they play undead-raising clerics.
Horrid Wilting, Magic Jar, Enervation, Graymantle, Greater Disrupt Undead, Undeath to Death, Clone, Blight, Fear, False Life, Vampiric Touch, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Finger of Death, Eyebite, oh my god, Eyebite, Wail of the Freaking Banshee.
Clerics don't get these spells. Sometimes at higher levels they get similar spells, but not as good. On the flip side, wizards can create and control undead, too. Also, whatever utility or support spells they add to their career in necromancy are superior. As necromancers go, clerics can build an army two levels before a wizard can, but wizards can kill those clerics before they get the chance. We don't assume liches are clerics most of the time, but we do assume they are often necromancers. There is a reason.
I'll make you a deal - you think on a larger scope, and I won't ever call you out as 'solidly, factually incorrect.'
So yeah, useful at lower levels, not so useful at higher levels.Which it seems is the intent for all these at-will powers. And is as it should be.
Uh... if the purpose is to urge players not to prestige out, then the at-will powers need to be useful at higher levels... and the higher level powers picked up need to be good compared to alternatives (look at Initiate of the 7 veils and then look at the Abjuration specialist... which do you take?)
Uh... if the purpose is to urge players not to prestige out, then the at-will powers need to be useful at higher levels... and the higher level powers picked up need to be good compared to alternatives (look at Initiate of the 7 veils and then look at the Abjuration specialist... which do you take?)
The second half of your sentence is right (you need good high-level abilities if you want to discourage PrCs), but the first half doesn't make much sense. Are you saying a level 1 wizard ability has to be great, otherwise wizards will PrC out at level 0?
You won't hear any argument from me as to the usefulness of the Abjurer's level 20 ability. (Energy immunity...yawn.)