Ok, it's sad, but I have to admit, that I don't like the current skill system at all.
My concerns in order of "severity"
1) Giving all characters automatic additional skills is no good.
Make it a feat to choose two additional skills or make two known cc-skills class skills in any combination (learn two new skills, learn a skill and upgrade the same or another, or just upgrade 2 known cc-skills).
2) The Fly skill is needless. Every creature able to fly by its own can use Athletics for that. Flying through spells could use spellcraft instead (or something else)
I personally prefer the skill point system. With one change: Get rid of the cross-class thing one way or the other.
If you keep class skill lists than allow any multiclass character to use all class skills of all his classes as class skills.
3) Actually, the skills list is no real improvement to the old one.
My skills suggestion:
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Athletics (Combines Climb, Jump, Swim and Running) <- "Combat Acrobatics" Feat to "unlock" the Tumble actions in combat
Craft (Craft + Appraise)
Deception (Bluff, Forgery, Disguise)
Diplomacy (Diplomacy, Gather information, Sense Motiv)
Dominance (Intimidate, Interrogate, Taunt, Weaken Resolve)
Handle Animal (Handle Animal, Ride, Veterinary) <- "Animal Training" Feat to actually raise and train (wild) animals
Knowledge (unchanged so far)
Languages (Speak Language, Decipher Script)
Legerdemain (Escape Artist (for bonds only), Sleight of Hand, Use Rope)
Mechanics (Disable Device, Open Lock) <- "Trapfinding" Feat for DC 21+ Traps (No need to make it Rogue-alone)
Medicine (Treat Injury + Herbalist)
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot, Taste, Touch) <- "Empathie" Feat to Sense Motivs with a Perception roll (instead of training Diplomacy)
Perform (make singing and all instruments one specialty = Music)
Profession (Profession + Appraise if appropriate)
Spellcraft (Spellcraft, Use Magic Device) <- Concentration is WILL-Save!
Stealth (Move Silently, Hide, Shadow)
Survival (unchanged) <- "Tracking" is Feat AND Perception check! (or at least Survival OR Perception check)
Warfare (Strategy + Tactics, use Catapults and the like)
No flaming and booing from me. Your list of skills seems like a very good one, and I like the mechanic of a feat "ulocking" the more specialized uses. Concentration being a Will save is something that should have been done a long time ago, in my opinion.
The only thing I'd do differently is maybe roll Disguise into Perform instead of Deception, but that's a very minor issue, and certainly YMMV. I also have to admit that I like the Fly skill.
2) The Fly skill is needless. Every creature able to fly by its own can use Athletics for that. Flying through spells could use spellcraft instead (or something else)
kinda like the fly skill myself
My skills suggestion:
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Appraise [pathfinder]
Athletics (Combines Climb, Swim and Running)
Acrobatics]PATHFINDER]
Craft [as is]
Deception (Bluff, Forgery, Disguise)
Diplomacy (Diplomacy, Gather information, Sense Motiv)
Dominance (Intimidate, Interrogate, Taunt, Weaken Resolve)
Handle Animal (Handle Animal,Veterinary)
Knowledge (unchanged so far)
Languages (Speak Language, Decipher Script)
Escape Artist [as is]
Mechanics Disable Device, Open Lock
heal (Treat Injury + Herbalist)
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot)
Perform (make singing and all instruments one specialty = Music)
Profession (Profession + Appraise if appropriate)
Ride [as is]
Spellcraft (Spellcraft, Use Magic Device,Concentration)
Stealth (Move Silently, Hide, Sleight of Hand,Shadow)
Survival (unchanged)
Warfare (Strategy + Tactics, use Catapults and the like)
not bad changed it a bit though
The point about Athletics/Acrobatics is the following:
1) You can easly imagine someone being a good athlete but not necessarily a good acrobat too.
BUT: Can you imagine someone being a decent acrobat but a bad athlete?
I think it's hard to.
2) Think about Acrobatics as Balance and Tumble. Would it be "trained only"? Tumble would be (especially for its combat uses) but balance?
I'd say not.
3) Skills ARE useful and fun, but make them too specific is no gain to the game, I think.
4) Balance, climb, jump and swim are ALL things anybody (human) can at least try intuitively without real training. But make the DC high enough and they will fail if not trained nevertheless.
Handle Animal / Ride
Ask any rider you might know. Riding isn't solely about sitting on a horse. It's also about caring for it, feeding it properly, working with it to train and learn new "moves" and so one.
Since D&D is a medieval game, you could even merge Ride into the athletics skill!
But I guess making handle animal and ride one skill is no loss but again : A GAIN FOR THE GAME!
(I think I will put this in my sig if I had one! :D)
Yes; Handle Animal and Ride really HAVE to be rolled together. It's impossible to ride an animal without handling it. If you don't believe me, just try.
DracoDruid-
I won't flame you for offering your suggestions. I may boo you for not looking through the threads first where you would have seen DeadDMWalking had already started a thread you could have posted it in -here-. But hey, we have all done that before ;)
Your system and most other systems I have seen would all work in gameplay, it is balanced that way. If it makes you happy, go for it, right?
In fact my sig would be The problem with skill-folding isn't that there is a right way and a wrong way, the problem is that there are lotsof right ways to do it.
Kerth, you are correct that the phrase Handle Animal is another way to say Ride, but if you fold Handle Animal and Ride together, someday a PC is going to ask you why training a dog is a dex-based skill; or the act of riding is a cha-based one.
I hope this comes across as friendly banter because that is the spirit I have written it in, I enjoy reading everyone's ideas. I have definitely had fun putting together different skill lists, but when all is said and done, the alpha version has stated it isn't complete yet and the next update will have more skills changes in them. I am confident enough in Jason's abilities to go with his final version--probably :)
I would get rid of the fixed Ability-skill-connection, too!
It might speed things up, but it's not necessary.
Well how I have always done ride is it also cover caring for your animal. not training but you know basic care for it.
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Kerth, you are correct that the phrase Handle Animal is another way to say Ride, but if you fold Handle Animal and Ride together, someday a PC is going to ask you why training a dog is a dex-based skill; or the act of riding is a cha-based one.
There's often good reasons to allow alternate ability scores to be used in different situations (Using Str to Intimidate a person in an obvious way, while Cha is used to make subtle menacing threats).
In 2nd Edition, PCs with the Ride proficiency would roll vs Dex when staying in the saddle, and Wis when pushing their mount to perform a trick.
In cases like this, simply have one stat be the default, but be aware that this could be over-ruled (using the same skill ranks, in either case).
WTF this is in the wrong place???
Well how I have always done ride is it also cover caring for your animal. not training but you know basic care for it.
I agree, ride and handle animal should be separate. Go to a few horse shows... when they award the ribbons at the end of each class, the announcer says: "Blue Ribbon Bandit! Trained by Bob Smith, Shown by John Doe, and owned by Jones' Stables." The guy who showed the horse just rides it. The guy who trained it, trained it, and the guy who owns it pays the bills. Sometimes these rolls are combined, but it's not uncommon to hear the trainer and rider to be different or the trainer/rider to be th same and the owner to be different.
The point is, in the real world, being able to ride a horse doesn't mean you know squat about training.
There was something else I saw in the proposed list up top... making Concentration a Will Save. Please no. First, this raises some interesting backwards compatibility issues with the Bot9S (various maneuvers are based upon concentration checks... so removing that from skills will significantly impact the viability of those maneuvers). Second, Will saves aren't near as good as skill checks... which means you'll have a lot more casters fail their will save/concentration check... and a lot more wasted spells. I don't see telling a player "You can't act this turn because you failed a will save." as being a boon to the game.
If you take a closer look, so should half of the posts in here.
But still you are right. From now on, I will post my suggestions in the other forum. Thanks
I would get rid of the fixed Ability-skill-connection, too!
It might speed things up, but it's not necessary.
DracoDruid and/or Snorter-
If you wrote up a system for this, I would read it.I tried coming up with a new skill called Vocation which would have rolled Craft, Profession and Perform into one, with specific checks based on Int, Wis, and Cha. Then I changed it into a Feat, then I scrapped it.
My point with Handle Animal is that is should change its name, it is not about handling an animal as you ride, it's about training them, the same point SeekerofShadowLight made.
A modern analogy would be driving a car. Most people know how to wash it, put gas in it and maybe change the oil or a flat tire. That's the Ride skill. Handle Animal is building the engine.
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DracoDruid and/or Snorter-
If you wrote up a system for this, I would read it.
I don't think it needs any actual system changes; just a side-bar to the DM, to remind him/her that they have authority to over-ride the usual ability listed for a skill.
NB: I've just checked, and it does indeed already exist as an option in the DMG (see 'Variant: Skills With Different Abilities', on page 33).
A modern analogy would be driving a car. Most people know how to wash it, put gas in it and maybe change the oil or a flat tire. That's the Ride skill. Handle Animal is building the engine.
A mechanic can definitely put in gas or change oil, in addition to building an engine.
Riding is a sub-skill of Handle Animal. The reverse is not true. Handle Animal is a broad heading, including training, hitching, riding, etc. Ride should be subsumed under Handle Animal, and the whole thing use the Cha modifier (for anyone who's ever ridden a horse, you can back me up that imposing your will on the animal is a LOT more important than being agile). If anyone wishes to disagree, that's OK if you have training/riding experience, but probably less viable if you don't. I'm not an expert by any stetch of the imagination, but I have ridden a horse and trained a ferret, and the two aren't really all that different.
Snorter- I don't have the rule books here, but I do remember looking at and liking the idea of Charisma modifying Will scores on Charm based spells. I used a similar option in 1 ed from an old Dragon mag.
Your idea intrigues me, I would still like to see how the bookkeeping would work. A small part of the appeal of skill-folding for me is so that it would take up less room on the sheets and in statblocks.
I know some people can just do this part in their head, but for clarity I would want to see it written down. Perhaps, the rules' writers could specify which ability would modify the skill check under the skill's description. Or you could record the two different numbers on the character sheet, such as Handle Animal (CHA/DEX) +6/+7.
I wouldn't run away from your campaign if you used something like this, but I think I still prefer the ability based system for now.
One last concern I will address in my next post.
Kirth-
I didn't mean to say if you want to do those things, that you have to take the Ride skill. They are still a part of Handle Animal skill set.
I meant they were so basic of skills if they were listed on the Handle Animal DC list they would be listed as a DC of -5 for anybody with the Ride skill. You wouldn't have to take any skill ranks in Handle Animal to do them.
Anyway, you do make a good point that it seems ridiculous to think a trainer wouldn't know how to ride the animal he is training. Ferret not necessarily included. So I will say the same thing I have said before, if you combined these skills, I would respect your decision and play in your campaign. Let's get to playing!
But since we are waiting around for the next skills update, I will continue with my analogy and state my other concern. By folding those two skills, you make no distinction between the pit crew and the car driver. Depending on how you want to run your campaign you could just have Handle Vehicle, or you could have Mechanic and Driver. Either way is just a matter of personal preference.
Riding is a sub-skill of Handle Animal. The reverse is not true.
That is the best argument I have seen for not combining skills.
Just because you have the ability to ride a horse, does not mean you could train a wild horse into a war horse.
Just because you have the ability to ride a horse, does not mean you could train a wild horse into a war horse.
But in real life, if you can do the latter, you can automatically do the former as well.
Just because you know how to ride a horse, doesn't mean you know how to take care of one. :P
But find me someone who can properly care for one who can't also ride.
Riding is a sub-skill of Handle Animal. The reverse is not true.
Handle Animal is a broad skill set, with components related to training, feeding/care, and riding.
So, if you wanted "Train Animal" and "Ride" to be separate skills, OK. But a skill entitled "Handle Animal" should really incorporate both components.
Anyway, you do make a good point that it seems ridiculous to think a trainer wouldn't know how to ride the animal he is training. Ferret not necessarily included. So I will say the same thing I have said before, if you combined these skills, I would respect your decision and play in your campaign. Let's get to playing!
If you kept 'em separate, I might rename "Handle Animal" as "Train Animal," but I'd still play as well. Happy gaming!
I don't think those skills are THAT important that they have to be separated.
Ride might be used fairly often in combat (although we rarely had mounted combat situations), but Handle Animal, besides his use for Animal Empathie was rare shortly used.
The point is:
Is it a loss to the game if any character able to ride, can also train other animals?
Is it a loss if any character who can train animals, can also ride?
I think it's not.
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My suggestions would be as follows...
Athletics (Climb, Jump)
Acrobatics (Balance and Tumble)
Craft(Unchanged, though Appraise if appropriate makes sense)
Deception (Bluff, Forgery, Disguise)
Disable Device (Disable Device, Open Lock)
Endurance (Running, Swim, + sleeping in armor, forced march, etc.)
Handle Animal (Unchanged)
Initiative (As Star Wars Saga; trust me it works fine)
Knowledge (Unchanged so far)
Languages (Speak Language, Decipher Script; see link here.)
Escape Artist(Unchanged)
Disable Device (Disable Device, Open Lock)
Heal (+Treat Injury)
Perception (Listen, Search, Spot, Sense Motive)
Perform (Unchanged)
Persuassion (Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate)
Profession (Profession + Appraise if appropriate)
Ride (Unchanged)
Sleight of Hand (Unchanged)
Spellcraft (Spellcraft, Use Magic Device,Concentration)
Stealth (Move Silently, Hide in Shadow)
Survival (unchanged)
I like the idea of Legerdemain (Escape Artist, Sleight of Hand, Use Rope) though I'm not crazy about the name.
I'm not crazy about Warfare (Strategy + Tactics, use Catapults and the like), since I think this could be a Knowledge skill.
In my playtest, we completely eliminated the"+2/+2" feats; no one ever took them! Replace Improved Initiative with Skill Focus (Initiative), and make the "+2/+2" feats such as Alertness into Skill Focus, such as the virtual feat granted by a Familiar - replace wih Skill Focus (Perception) in this case.