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My thoughts on Pathfinder 1.1 Combat Feats (pg 32) and how they do and/os should interact with fighters.
There are some really neat things about Combat Feats (pg 34), but I have a worry. It's an un-expandable core resource. In other words, you can never have more than one combat feat operating at a time. But you can spend lots and lots and lots of feats on your options, which becomes a diminishing return, which feels backwards.
Let me explain.
Let's say you take Dodge. It's useful, you're low level, and you want a higher AC. Great. You can have 1 feat up, you've spent 1 feat, and that feat is almost always useful.
A few levels pass. You decide you want Cleave. When you're not worried about AC, but want good offense, Cleave seems worthwhile. So, you've now spent 2 feats, each of which you can use no more than half the time. Cleave seems worth it, but it's not as useful a choice as Dodge was for you.
Another couple of levels. You decide to take Wind stance. It's a higher level feat. It took more to earn. You had an even larger pool of possible feats to choose from, so this feat selection was from a broader, and thus more useful, range of choices. But you can't use Wind Stance at the same time as Dodge. They are both defensive feats, you must have one to have the other, but now each of your three combat feats can be used no more than 1/3 of the time. Wind Stance is made much less attractive than a non-Combat feat you could always be using.
By the time you consider Overhand Chop, you're looking at taking a -forth- feat to fill -one- slot each round. You've got a weaker combat feat choice, in terms of total usefulness, compared to when you were lower level. By the time you're a 16th level fighter, this becomes pointless.
So, here are my proposed changes for the problem I perceive.
1: Create a Dual Style feat. Make it require a +6 or +11 base attack bonus. If you want to make your combat feats more useful a mid to high level, spend a feat to get two Combat Feats useable each round. It's easy, and requires few changes.
2: Let everyone have multiple Combat feats, based on their base attack bonus. The simple version is +1 feat for every full 5 points of base attack bonus. (This could even potentially replace extra attacks per round from high attack bonuses.) This rewards combat-based characters for investing in combat feats, and makes the exact same feats less attractive to less combat-oriented characters. I like those effects a lot.
3: Give fighters and monks additional combat feats at set levels, as class features. This both allows those two classes to excel at what they do, and gives the Monk something he could be better at than any other combatant.
ALSO; Given fighters get combat bonuses built into the class, I'd add Weapon Specialization to the list of feats excluded intentionally (sidebar, pg 34).
I'm sorry I missed this.
Where does it say in the rules that if you have 2 combat feats, you can only use 1 half the time, or are you just saying that it is like you can only use it half the time? Ether way yeah your right, sense you can only use one combat feat at a time, then the more you get them the less useful they become. I hate this system, and don't want to have to use it.
I agree with the direction Owen is headed. Essentially, limiting the use of combat feats to one per round is a no-win for higher level combat-oriented characters. If you stick with the "chain" aspect of such combat feats, my recommendation would be to make them useable more than once per round. Instead, I'd say make them useable once per iterative attack.
That way, if you have a fighter with a BAB of +6/+1, he could pull off a Backswing on his second attack at +1 after succeeding with an Overhand Chop on his primary attack at +6. This approach would build in the combo-attacks more effectively than once per round and let a high-level warrior really bring down the pain.
In addition, a monk could implement multiple combat feats within his flurry of blows. And really, any character with iterative attacks could do the same. But fighters and monks would really shine in this approach.
My two-cents,
--Neil
1: Create a Dual Style feat. Make it require a +6 or +11 base attack bonus. If you want to make your combat feats more useful a mid to high level, spend a feat to get two Combat Feats useable each round. It's easy,...
I like this option. Especially if the fighter can also take this as a fighter feat. It costs a feat, but in Pathfinder, the characters have more to burn anyway. One thing that you could do is allow the feat to initially allow two combat feats in one round, but eventually allow for more in one round based on the BaB of the guy with the feat.
Cool idea.
What if we add that to the fighters class ability's
something like
6th 2 combat feats per round
12th 3 combat feats per round
18th 4 combat feats per round
meaning only fighters get's multi combat feats in one round.More in line with them being well fighters.
I agree with the direction Owen is headed. Essentially, limiting the use of combat feats to one per round is a no-win for higher level combat-oriented characters. If you stick with the "chain" aspect of such combat feats, my recommendation would be to make them useable more than once per round. Instead, I'd say make them useable once per iterative attack.
That way, if you have a fighter with a BAB of +6/+1, he could pull off a Backswing on his second attack at +1 after succeeding with an Overhand Chop on his primary attack at +6. This approach would build in the combo-attacks more effectively than once per round and let a high-level warrior really bring down the pain.
In addition, a monk could implement multiple combat feats within his flurry of blows. And really, any character with iterative attacks could do the same. But fighters and monks would really shine in this approach.
My two-cents,
--Neil
Your 2 cents are worth at least a dollar, by my standards. You take an excellent point, merge it with simple, easy-to-track mechanics, and then provide a useful analysis to boot. I have absolutely nothing to add.
I say: get rid of this "One feat per round" at all!
As you said, its weakening the combat classes and if you have to come up with additional rules on how-to use what-many feats a round is certainly no gain at all!
My problem with any of these progressions is that they fix a problem that I don't think exists. Since when are fighting classes overpowered? Last I checked, it was wizards, clerics, and druids that could complete almost any level-appropriate challenge by themselves; why does the fighter need to have his options limited like this?
When I play a fighter, the challenge and the fun come from having to find feat combinations that work well together. The one big advantage a fighter is that he gets a lot more feats than any other class. If he can't use those feats together, then his is worse off than the paladin, who can use here feats along with her smites, or the barbarian, who can rage along with his feats.
My problem with any of these progressions is that they fix a problem that I don't think exists. Since when are fighting classes overpowered? Last I checked, it was wizards, clerics, and druids that could complete almost any level-appropriate challenge by themselves; why does the fighter need to have his options limited like this?
When I play a fighter, the challenge and the fun come from having to find feat combinations that work well together. The one big advantage a fighter is that he gets a lot more feats than any other class. If he can't use those feats together, then his is worse off than the paladin, who can use here feats along with her smites, or the barbarian, who can rage along with his feats.
Its a good point, but its also a good point towards only allowing fighters to use multiple combat feats in a round. I'll have to see them in action more to see if it feels like a problem or not though.
What if we add that to the fighters class ability's
something like
6th 2 combat feats per round
12th 3 combat feats per round
18th 4 combat feats per round
meaning only fighters get's multi combat feats in one round.More in line with them being well fighters.
Well then that leaves all the non fighter, combat classes in the cold.
Maybe this.
Requirements: base attack 9, or 6th level fighter
2 combat feats per round
Requirements: Base attack 15, or 12th level fighter
3 combat feats per round
Requirements: Base Attack 21, or 18th level fighter
4 combat feats per round.
Well then that leaves all the non fighter, combat classes in the cold.Maybe this.
Requirements: base attack 9, or 6th level fighter
2 combat feats per roundRequirements: Base attack 15, or 12th level fighter
3 combat feats per roundRequirements: Base Attack 21, or 18th level fighter
4 combat feats per round.
Or you could have the fighter automatically, as a class feature start to use multiple combat feats, but other classes need to take a feat to do so.
Or you could have the fighter automatically, as a class feature start to use multiple combat feats, but other classes need to take a feat to do so.
That's a GREAT idea! We'd have to work on the mechanics for multiclass fighters, though, to avoid a 1-2 level "dip."
Or you could have the fighter automatically, as a class feature start to use multiple combat feats, but other classes need to take a feat to do so.
that was the ideal really I thought I posted the feat thing but I didnt.
so here let me try again and be clear on my thoughtsFighter Class ability
combat feats mastery.
each time the fighter gains this ability he may perform one more combat feat per round.Note this ability does not stack with any multi combat feats.
6TH 2 combat feats per round
11TH 3 combat feats per round
16TH 4 combat feats per round
new feats
Multi combat
Taking this feat allows you to preform one extra combat feat.
Requirement:BAB+6
Improved Multi combat
this feat allows you to use 2 extra combat feat combat[
Requirements: Multi combat, BAB+11
Multi Combat mastery
This feat allows you to use 3 extra combat feat per round
Requirements:new feats,Improved Multi combat,BAB+16
Now that gives the fighter the edge but allows other to do it if they wish to spend the feats.
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I completely agree: Fighters should get to use multiple combat feats per round, and offering this option to the other classes through feats would be a very cool as well.
The question is how much is the right amount? I kind of like the idea that fighters get to use additional combat feats when they get extra attacks (so 6th, 11th and 16th level), but I could see it working every 5 levels as well (5th, 10th, 15th and 20th, for a total of 5 combat feats per round at 20th level). Also, do we replace the Fighter's feat/class features for the level that they gain this ability, or do we just tack it on?
Personally, I think if we just add it on top of everything else the Fighter has, we'll have solved the Fighter problem. Not only will they have a cool ability that only they can do well (use multiple Combat Feats at a time), but it'll improve their power level to be in line with the other classes.
Seriously, amazing ideas guy; if we all keep working this well, the Pathfinder RPG is going to be awesome!
Emm... Why not remove the restriction alltogether?
(I think I have a déjà-vu)
Emm... Why not remove the restriction alltogether?
(I think I have a déjà-vu)
That is what I want, but I don't think I am going to get it, so I am trying to work with it to hopefully make it better.
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Emm... Why not remove the restriction alltogether?
(I think I have a déjà-vu)
I could be wrong on this, as I haven't spent too much time seeing how this would work, but it strikes me as though the combat feats (particularly the higher-level ones) would be too powerful if you could have them 'on' all the time. By limiting the amount you can use at once, you can have more powerful feats that can't be used all the time.
I admit that giving too many possibilies as I mentioned in the post above kind of makes this restriction disappear, so maybe dual-combat feats or triple-combat feats should be the upper limit.
I think it works best based off BAB lets look at a write up of 1-20
1ST BF
2ND BF
3RD AT
4TH BF
5TH WT
6TH BF,MC
7TH AT
8TH BF
9TH WT
10TH BF
11TH AT,MC
12TH BF
13TH WT
15TH BF
16TH AT,MC
17TH BF
18TH WT
19TH AM
20TH BF,WM
So if we go that way the fighter gets an extra boost.and none fights can do it as well just cost em more.
feat brake down by level
fighter
6th 7 feats
11th 12 feats
16th 17 feats
non fighter
6th 3
11th 6
16th 8
as you can see this will allow fighters to always be better at skillfly makeing things die with bits of metal
Ok, one question:
If the Fighter gets the extra feat uses for free,
can he also take the "extra feat" feats to get even more?
If not, change the text of those feats from: "can use an extra combat feat per turn" to "can use up to 2/3/4/.. combat feats per turn"
In that way it cannot stack with the fighter ability by itself.
Or just give the fighter those feats as bonus feats (rather then a special class ability)
Ok, one question:
If the Fighter gets the extra feat uses for free,
can he also take the "extra feat" feats to get even more?If not, change the text of those feats from: "can use an extra combat feat per turn" to "can use up to 2/3/4/.. combat feats per turn"
In that way it cannot stack with the fighter ability by itself.
Or just give the fighter those feats as bonus feats (rather then a special class ability)
thanks for pointing that out its now fixed.
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Ok, one question:
If the Fighter gets the extra feat uses for free,
can he also take the "extra feat" feats to get even more?If not, change the text of those feats from: "can use an extra combat feat per turn" to "can use up to 2/3/4/.. combat feats per turn"
In that way it cannot stack with the fighter ability by itself.
Or just give the fighter those feats as bonus feats (rather then a special class ability)
I don't think the Fighter should be able to take the feats if he has the class ability, that would lead to too many uses, I would think. What if the Fighter got a class ability that only he could get that give him +1 uses of combat feats, that only the Fighter would get, and then at the same time 1 or 2 feats for *everyone*, including the Fighter, this way everyone has access to the ability, but the Fighter is always one step ahead.
new feats
Multi combat
Taking this feat allows you to preform one extra combat feat.[Does not stack with fighter multi combat class ability}
Requirement:BAB+6Improved Multi combat
this feat allows you to use one extra combat feat{stacks with Multi combat][Does not stack with fighter multi combat class ability}
Requirements: Multi combat, BAB+11Multi Combat mastery
This feat allows you to use one extra combat feat per round[stakes with Multi combat and Improved Multi combat][Does not stack with fighter multi combat class ability}
Requirements:new feats,Improved Multi combat,BAB+16
@ Seeker:
Why doing it easy when it can be solved the complicate way? ;)
Just write: Can use 2 feats per turn, can use three feats per turn, can use four feats per turn.
=> No need to write stacks with this and not with that.
Just a good-meant advice.
I'M working off my head thanks I'll change it .
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@ Seeker:
Why doing it easy when it can be solved the complicate way? ;)
Just write: Can use 2 feats per turn, can use three feats per turn, can use four feats per turn.
=> No need to write stacks with this and not with that.Just a good-meant advice.
I like the way he wrote it originally, it saves you from having to change how it works in the event of further feats, or new class abilities. This way, you're safe if you want to tread back into this particular design space.
Ok added the line.This ability does not stack with any multi combat feats.
the the fighters combat mastery ability .does that make it cleaner for every one?
Ok, I'll have a try.
COMBAT VERSATILITY
Prerequisite: BAB +6 or higher.
Benefit: You can use up to two combat feats each turn.
Normal: Without this feat you can only use one combat feat each turn.
Special: Fighters get this feat as a free bonus feat at 6th level.
IMPROVED COMBAT VERSATILITY
Prerequisite: Combat Versatility, BAB +11 or higher.
Benefit: This feat works like Combat Versatility, except that you can use up to three combat feats each turn.
Special: Fighters get this feat as a free bonus feat at 11th level.
GREATER COMBAT VERSATILITY
Prerequisite: Combat Versatility, Improved Combat Versatility, BAB +16 or higher.
Benefit: This feat works like Combat Versatility, except that you can use up to four combat feats each turn.
Special: Fighters get this feat as a free bonus feat at 16th level.
Three feats, no additional Fighter ability needed. Just make sure to add it to the Fighter Table and give it a short line in the ability descriptions (like: Combat Versatility: At 6th level a fighter gets Combat Versatality as a free bonus feat in addition to any the feats gained at 1st and every third level. Improved CV...)
Great write ups better names then mine.How ever ya need a line that say that is in addition to the normal bonus feat at that level . If not thats a world of pain right there.It needs to be 100% clear that is on top of the normal bonuses feats and not replacing them.