/agree Bards & Sages
it's just the hindsight thing that makes it look like a "possibility"
and like I said, I do NOT believe it is the case. It's a tad too cartoonish, even for Mr Potatohead. :D
I just knew someone was going to point at it and scream it out sooner or later.
lol
such is the way of things.
I think your theory is pretty wrong. The 3rd party market simply isn't a big enough threat that WotC is going to try and stamp them out. Before the release dates were pushed back, I'm sure the idea was to have DnD Day in May, but with the release pushback, so was the day pushed back.No hard feelings, just the way the cards fell. To characterize this as a malicious act on WotC's part is misleading, IMO.
Cheers! :)
Malicious is stronger than I was going for, although I see where you could read it that way. The tone I really wanted was more "yet another public relations debacle in a long string" type of thing, dating all the way back to the 4E announcement.
"Stamping out" is sort of strong too. I'm thinking more of a "we just don't care about the 3rd party developers".
And that's based on the OP's theory being true...
[Threadjack]
My name is Dale McCoy. In my ENWorld signature, I make reference to Idaho's 2000ish incarnations by stating that if he had a 1693 incarnation, why can't I.
I created my ENWorld account long before I created an account here. I liked the cat in a dryer, I thought he was cute. So that's my picture.
Here, I'm a kobold because that was my favorite Paizo adventure I had read (at least, up until I had chosen the picture).
[/Threadjack]
Oh great...Now Im depressed that someone thinks that making $75,000 a years isnt alot of money. :(
Hmm yes, same here. 2.5x what I earn.
Malicious is stronger than I was going for, although I see where you could read it that way. The tone I really wanted was more "yet another public relations debacle in a long string" type of thing, dating all the way back to the 4E announcement.
"Stamping out" is sort of strong too. I'm thinking more of a "we just don't care about the 3rd party developers".
And that's based on the OP's theory being true...
Ah, in that case sorry for misconstruing your meaning. I would agree with you that the concern for 3rd party developers seems less than exemplary. I'd chalk that up to a combination of the developers who are friends with 3rd party developers being swamped with work while the corporate types aren't that concerned. But then it's always easy to pick on those faceless corporate suits, so maybe I'm just being mean! :P
Cheers! :)
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I think there are more than that (I'd guess closer to a dozen than "one or two") - BUT... I'd also bet that all BUT one or two of them of them make 60-70% of their income from their "primary job" and the rest from RPGs (the "night job")...
HAHAHAHA.I can think of maybe one or two people in the entire RPG _industry_ who make $75,000 a year. Maybe.
Editorial salaries in this business range from the mid-20s to the high-40s, I should think. It's been a long time since I worked at WotC, but I'm guessing that's still fairly accurate.
There are not a dozen people in the RPG field making 75K.
I would bet my entire salary on that.
What companies do you think pay more than one employee this much money?
After I graduated from college in the mid-90s, I was offered an editorial job I had applied for. The salary was so low (like $19K?) that I just laughed and took a job as a salesman at Egghead Software. I think my best year as a part-time freelancer was maybe something like $4K and half the product I was originally promised, probably less than that. I don't make $75K and now I am a professional egghead.
After I graduated from college in the mid-90s, I was offered an editorial job I had applied for. The salary was so low (like $19K?) that I just laughed and took a job as a salesman at Egghead Software. I think my best year as a part-time freelancer was maybe something like $4K and half the product I was originally promised, probably less than that. I don't make $75K and now I am a professional egghead.
Editing 19k? OMG!
I make over 20,000 USD a year teaching English literature and holding a side job at a University in China (28 teaching hours a week....). My rent on a nice seaside 3 bedroom apartment is 175 dollars a month and a dozen (organic) eggs costs 2 USD. During the summer I will supervise English immersion field trips abroad and make about 4k in a month.
You poor bastards. I'm going to the beach, it's 17 degrees C today.
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Editing 19k? OMG!
I make over 20,000 USD a year teaching English literature and holding a side job at a University in China (28 teaching hours a week....). My rent on a nice seaside 3 bedroom apartment is 175 dollars a month and a dozen (organic) eggs costs 2 USD. During the summer I will supervise English immersion field trips abroad and make about 4k in a month.
You poor bastards. I'm going to the beach, it's 17 degrees C today.
That's pretty good for China ain't it? I think a lotta the jobs I saw were paying around $1000 to $1200 a month, at best. I been debating a move to China but the salary in Korea keeps me around.
Sorry for the offtopic heh ;p
I suppose I'm on what would be $32000 as a theatre's education officer, if you directly converted it. But then stuff is more expensive over here so it's not really exact.
Oh great...Now Im depressed that someone thinks that making $75,000 a years isnt alot of money. :(
I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.
I woudl seriously doubt if anyone working at wizard's, except maybe for the very top brass, made that kind of back.
I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.
Well, I wouldn't argue the second point, but the first one is definitely way off. There are plenty of jobs in the high-tech quarter that will pay that much money.
I woudl seriously doubt if anyone working at wizard's, except maybe for the very top brass, made that kind of back.
That is something I have absolutely no insight into...
Greg
And here I thought Erik Mona lit his cigars with $20 bills... ;)
He does, but he blows them (the bills) out after they are 1/3 burnt and goes to the bank and exchanges them for new ones. He's smart like that.
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Oh great...Now Im depressed that someone thinks that making $75,000 a years isnt alot of money. :(I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.
And Resource Management in the IT field. The wifey makes almost six figures.
I once made $40k as an IT tech but some others around me were up around $70k. Once you get into the management area of IT you start seeing some big salaries.|
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Editorial salaries in this business range from the mid-20s to the high-40s, I should think. It's been a long time since I worked at WotC, but I'm guessing that's still fairly accurate.
Absolutely dead on. I was offered a job as a line manager for an RPG company for a little over $30K. They THOUGHT they were making a generous offer and they were given their resources. I would have had to take a 75% cut in pay. Working in RPGs is a labor of love.
I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.Well, I wouldn't argue the second point, but the first one is definitely way off. There are plenty of jobs in the high-tech quarter that will pay that much money.
Greg
/threadjack
It's true, the tech industry does very well for itself, and that kind of salary is easy to get depending on who you are working for and what exactly you are doing in tech sector.I left it out because of how variable that range can be. I know programmers who make half what I do while doing basicly the same job, and I also know a couple who make twice what I do for the same thing.
Work for Microsoft or a goverment contracter, and a 6 figure salary is easy to get. Work for a small software company, and you'll have trouble making 30k.
/threadjack off
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I'm not sure I agree here.Unfortunately, ENWorld voters don't agree with you. Link.
At time of posting, 62% of posters said they would purchase 4E even if it were completely closed.
What amazes me is that folks showing as proof of intent polls that show WOtc items in positive numbers while a while ago folks were putting down same said polls as "only internet items too small to count" for anything showing dissent or support for 3.5
What amazes me is that folks showing as proof of intent polls that show WOtc items in positive numbers while a while ago folks were putting down same said polls as "only internet items too small to count" for anything showing dissent or support for 3.5
I would agree and say that the poll is inherently too small to really be indicitive of much. However, it does bear to keep in mind that there is a difference between saying "I will buy 4E even if it is closed" and "I will not play 4E because I like 3.5E better".
The first claim is an affirmation of an intended action, with all of the information on the table. Even if 4E is closed, they are still going to buy.
The second claim is a negation of an intended action, with large pieces of the information missing. Without seeing all of 4E, they are saying they'll still refuse to play it.
In the second case, it would be easy to argue that until all the information is known at least some opinions are bound to change, whereas someone who is ok buying 4E completely closed is unlikely to suddenly reverse their descision (what new information would prompt such a change? 4E being SUPER-closed? I kid, I kid. :P)
Overall though (and to touch back to my first point), I'd ALWAYS take ANY internet poll with a grain of salt. They're just not trustworthy, for a whole slew of reasons.
Cheers! :)
"The most difficult part of any campaign is supply."-Patton
This is where WotC learns why Alexander is known as Alexander the Great. If the 4E is closed, demand will exceed supply. This demand will not be met due to lack of third party publishers and interest will wane. Gone will be the D&D industry as we have come to know it.
With this there is an opportunity for a third party publisher to step in and take over.
On a side note: I am a firefighter with 3 years on the line and I still do not make high twenties.
"The most difficult part of any campaign is supply."-Patton
This is where WotC learns why Alexander is known as Alexander the Great. If the 4E is closed, demand will exceed supply. This demand will not be met due to lack of third party publishers and interest will wane. Gone will be the D&D industry as we have come to know it.
With this there is an opportunity for a third party publisher to step in and take over.
On a side note: I am a firefighter with 3 years on the line and I still do not make high twenties.
I was thinking of something similiar for WotC online content. I think the worst thing that could happen to their online program is that they actually get alot of demand for it. The previous digital work they have done with their site does not indicate that they could actually handle a large number of customers using their site. And if that should happen the backlash from disastified customers could truly hurt them.
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I would agree and say that the poll is inherently too small to really be indicitive of much. However, it does bear to keep in mind that there is a difference between saying "I will buy 4E even if it is closed" and "I will not play 4E because I like 3.5E better".
The first claim is an affirmation of an intended action, with all of the information on the table. Even if 4E is closed, they are still going to buy.
The second claim is a negation of an intended action, with large pieces of the information missing. Without seeing all of 4E, they are saying they'll still refuse to play it.
In the second case, it would be easy to argue that until all the information is known at least some opinions are bound to change, whereas someone who is ok buying 4E completely closed is unlikely to suddenly reverse their descision (what new information would prompt such a change? 4E being SUPER-closed? I kid, I kid. :P)
Overall though (and to touch back to my first point), I'd ALWAYS take ANY internet poll with a grain of salt. They're just not trustworthy, for a whole slew of reasons.
Cheers! :)
No sweat....I'm just pointing out the double standard.....
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There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor.
And engineers. A new college grad with a 4-year degree in engineering (sometimes math, physics, and/or computer science) starts at about $50k-$55k/year in the aerospace industry. No post-grad degrees needed. If you're good, you can make $75k/year with 5-6 years experience.
-Skeld
Let me clarify. A salary of $75,000 is low for a good business analyst/project manager in a professional setting, which is what I believe WotC would need to help them clean things up and take advantage of what they're building. That was my point.
This is a pretty good assessment, both on the salary divergence and on the state of the 4e release. I just noted on another board that Gleemax and the DDI reek of "poor planning, lacking stakeholder requirements, poor or lacking project management, no good process in place for quality checks and controlled public release, etc." and I think this can be expanded to the 4e release in general. The GSL is one element of this lack in project/product planning. Though I'm in the IT field, the basics of project management are the same and I see clear indications of failures in key areas--risk management, communication management, activity scheduling/sequencing--that are manifesting in things like making an announcement about something (Gleemax, DDI, the GSL, etc.) before you should/could really show that thing to stakeholders. This destroys stakeholder confidence, increasing pressure on the project to deliver which often leads to cutting corners and lower quality.
For those on the salary hunt, I'd recommend hitting some of the job sites that offer salary calculators by location (many world-wide). You can pull in $75+ K "pretty easy" (in quotes because I know that is a very relative term and by no means think it's easy) in a lot of sectors and you will find that doctors and lawyers can make much, much more than that. I'm in a "perfect storm" for me of IT (software development) + project management + government contractor = $100 K. I've got a friend, however, that is an ER doc and he pulls in somewhere between $400-500 K and both of us put in the same time for post-grad (his for Dr. school, obviously, and mine for an MBA and professional certs). Heck, his house and car payments are probably more than my salary. Of course, he works 16+ hour shifts, 4 on and 4 off, and has to deal with patients trying to kill him while he tries to shove their entrails back in and keep them alive. He can have the money...
And engineers.
I wonder how much Goblin and Kobold Engineers make. 2 Gnome hands and a 3 chickens a day? I have it on good authority that Kobolds love the taste of baby owlbears. They might build you a mine to lots of shiney good-good in exchange for a nest of baby owl bears.
I work in a game store. Yes, my LGS. And make minimum wage. If I tried to I could make more monies painting minis and exporting them to Canada then I make at my actual job.
Even if my job is to hang around on messageboards just like this one and report gleaned knowledge to my boss. BTW, thanks for announcing the PFRPG. You have no idea how happy it made my old ninja of a boss. He's stopped worrying so loudly about D&D 4e driving him out of business by invalidating the many thousands of dollars of 3.5 and OGL stock we have on the shelves.
Hence one of my reasons for not liking 4e. Nice old men shouldn't be worried about losing their businesses because of an edition change.
I would agree and say that the poll is inherently too small to really be indicitive of much. However, it does bear to keep in mind that there is a difference between saying "I will buy 4E even if it is closed" and "I will not play 4E because I like 3.5E better".
The first claim is an affirmation of an intended action, with all of the information on the table. Even if 4E is closed, they are still going to buy.
The second claim is a negation of an intended action, with large pieces of the information missing. Without seeing all of 4E, they are saying they'll still refuse to play it.
Actually isn't the first one an affirmation without all of the information. It seems as if they only have a limited amount of information, one piece being it might be closed. For the second it appears as if it is an affirmation of the alternative system (3.5) as much as it is a negation of purchasing the given (4e). Now if it said, "I will not play 4E, no matter how good it is." That would be a clear negation of the action.
I think that if this is the case, it is a Deliberate action by Hasbro in an attempt to rid itself of the competition. Regardless of WotC and what it wants, if Hasbro sees other publishers as competion to their gaming money, I could see them deciding to squash the competition. And hanging out the GSL and then letting the comapnies commit only to pull it away would be the perfect strategy. It would leave a huge hole in the market that would only have 4E to fill. THe Wrench in that plan is Paizo and Pathfinder.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Doth my eyes detect a bit of snarkiness? I'm not calling on you to defend your decision, or Lisa's.Hi there. I'm Vic Wertz, former Wizards of the Coast shareholder. I voted "yes" to the Hasbro sale. So did my partner, Lisa Stevens. We'd both do it again in a heartbeat. Off the top of my head, I can't think of a single WotC shareholder whom I think wouldn't do so.
By the way, if we hadn't, Paizo would not exist today.
I realize you may not have known that somebody looking in was actually capable of answering your question, but you *did* in fact ask a question targeted at me:
WotC...did you really think that selling out to the corporate stooges was the right path? For that matter, how about now?
I think that certainly opens the door to adding some explanation to my answer (which you can see as "defending it" if you like).
I'm comfortable with speaking for the majority of WotC shareholders in saying that we did think that selling Wizards to Hasbro was the right path. I know we thought that, because we voted on it.
I'm speaking only for myself and for Lisa (because I haven't discussed this with many former shareholders lately) when I say that yes, we still think it was the right decision for ourselves, for the other shareholders, for Wizards of the Coast, for Hasbro, and for the overall industry—publishers and players alike. I think all of those groups would indeed be in a worse situation than they are now.
Respectfully yours,
Donny the Mad DM
You and I clearly don't use the word "respectfully" the same way, because the antagonistic and insulting tone of your posting is anything but respectful to me or to Paizo or Wizards.
Actually isn't the first one an affirmation without all of the information. It seems as if they only have a limited amount of information, one piece being it might be closed. For the second it appears as if it is an affirmation of the alternative system (3.5) as much as it is a negation of purchasing the given (4e). Now if it said, "I will not play 4E, no matter how good it is." That would be a clear negation of the action.I would agree and say that the poll is inherently too small to really be indicitive of much. However, it does bear to keep in mind that there is a difference between saying "I will buy 4E even if it is closed" and "I will not play 4E because I like 3.5E better".
The first claim is an affirmation of an intended action, with all of the information on the table. Even if 4E is closed, they are still going to buy.
The second claim is a negation of an intended action, with large pieces of the information missing. Without seeing all of 4E, they are saying they'll still refuse to play it.
Note that the first argument says even if ... it admits that not all is known, asumes the worst, and still accepts 4E. Presumably, anyone will to buy it closed would also be able to buy it open, so the full information is not needed to make the choice.
In the second case, the upcoming info may change your mind (if 4E is better that you expected) and undoubtedly will, somewhere. I do agree that your stating of it is much firmer in that direction.
For the record I do NOT think 4E is going to be closed, and would really be suprised. It just wouldn't prevent me from buying it.
Cheers! :)
Note that the first argument says even if ... it admits that not all is known, asumes the worst, and still accepts 4E. Presumably, anyone will to buy it closed would also be able to buy it open, so the full information is not needed to make the choice.
In the second case, the upcoming info may change your mind (if 4E is better that you expected) and undoubtedly will, somewhere. I do agree that your stating of it is much firmer in that direction.
In the first case though, some upcoming info might also change a person's mind (if 4e is worse than they expected) and undoubtedly will for some.
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I find it funny that Enworld has 62% of 750 votes(480)for closed 4e, but we have 45% of over 1500 votes (707) who say "pry my 3.5 books out of my cold dead hands..."
WotC has failed its craft(role-playing games) check by not listening to their customers....
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/pollWhatEditionOf DDDoYouCurrentlyExpectToBePlayingAtTheEndOf2008
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Oh great...Now Im depressed that someone thinks that making $75,000 a years isnt alot of money. :(I agree Jason. There are really only two kinds of jobs which pay that kind of money, Lawyer and Doctor. And you have to be good at what you do to make that.
I woudl seriously doubt if anyone working at wizard's, except maybe for the very top brass, made that kind of back.
The IT field Pays Up to or more then that also... And you don't even have to be good at it..;-)
Edit: Oh well... Already been brought up..
On a Side note...THere are still some good money to be made in the IT field in the Middle East...Or if you don't mind that dangers.. In the War Zones..
I find it funny that Enworld has 62% of 750 votes(480)for closed 4e, but we have 45% of over 1500 votes (707) who say "pry my 3.5 books out of my cold dead hands..."
WotC has failed its craft(role-playing games) check by not listening to their customers....
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/pollWhatEditionOf DDDoYouCurrentlyExpectToBePlayingAtTheEndOf2008
Polls mean nothing online.
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Polls mean nothing online.I find it funny that Enworld has 62% of 750 votes(480)for closed 4e, but we have 45% of over 1500 votes (707) who say "pry my 3.5 books out of my cold dead hands..."
WotC has failed its craft(role-playing games) check by not listening to their customers....
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/gaming/dnd/pollWhatEditionOf DDDoYouCurrentlyExpectToBePlayingAtTheEndOf2008
The only online 'poll' that will matter is here
EDIT: Paizo.com obviously not Amazon.com as I had linked. doh!
In the first case though, some upcoming info might also change a person's mind (if 4e is worse than they expected) and undoubtedly will for some.Note that the first argument says even if ... it admits that not all is known, asumes the worst, and still accepts 4E. Presumably, anyone will to buy it closed would also be able to buy it open, so the full information is not needed to make the choice.
In the second case, the upcoming info may change your mind (if 4E is better that you expected) and undoubtedly will, somewhere. I do agree that your stating of it is much firmer in that direction.
Well, I guess I was assuming that, along the "will 4E be open or closed" axis of possibilities, it being closed (with absolutely no 3rd party support) is pretty much the worse possible option. I'm not sure many who are ok with buying it fully/totally closed would object to buying it open, although I guess I can't say that with confidence.
Information not related to the question could change their mind, but they aren't saying "I'll buy 4E no matter what" just that its open/closedness is not a factor.
Cheers! :)
On a side note: I am a firefighter with 3 years on the line and I still do not make high twenties.
Since this thread has been jacked more times than not, I'll just chime in and say society priorities are seriously messed up. I type into a glowing box all day and I make more than you do as a firefighter. I think among the essential services to society (which I would lump at least doctors, firefighters, police, military, and teachers into), doctors are the only ones who get paid what they should. If I was a sociologist or economist or something, I'd probably come up with some theory about it being related to the extra years of schooling and specialized knowledge necessary, but I'm not. So I'll just say that everyone who works in those services should be highly paid while the typing into a glowing box that I pretend to do 8 hours a day is way overpaid.
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Since this thread has been jacked more times than not, I'll just chime in and say society priorities are seriously messed up. I type into a glowing box all day and I make more than you do as a firefighter. I think among the essential services to society (which I would lump at least firefighters, police, military, and teachers into), doctors are the only ones who get paid what they should. If I was a sociologist or economist or something, I'd probably come up with some theory about it being related to the extra years of schooling and specialized knowledge necessary, but I'm not. So I'll just say that everyone who works in those services should be highly paid while the typing into a glowing box that I pretend to do 8 hours a day is way overpaid.
While I was not an economics major in undergrad, I did take a few courses and for the most part you got it correct. Extra years of education (beyond college) usually correspond to a higher pay scale, depending on industry. This is partly due to the value placed on careers that require advanced education and partly on the "devalue" placed on those that don't.
While I'm about a few months away from graduating from Law school, I come from two generations of former teachers and my best friend growing up had a police officer for a father. Like firefighters, I definately think that these professions are SERIOUSLY underpaid. Firefighters/Cops risk their lives when they go on duty and (good) Teachers are a guiding force for future generations. Yet, we pay them peanuts compared to other industries. A lot of people I've talked seemed to agree, but when you pass the collection plate to pay for a raise, its depressing to see how many people backtrack.
In sum, I agree with you.
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As for the original topic,
We have a bit of a logical quandry here. Paizo staffers have stated over and over that WOTC staffers are firm believers in the OGL and others have discussed WOTC staffers' emberrassment over the delay on the GSL. On the other hand, a number of people have described the hands off approach Hasbro takes with its sunsidiaries. One statement points towards Hasbro causing the delay, the other points towards WOTC. It's going to be interesting to see which one is accurate.
BTW: Has anyone else had trouble getting to WOTC's D&D site since the April Fool's day news article?
EDIT: Boards ate a post where I basically said firefighters/teachers/cops are underpaid....
On a side note: I am a firefighter with 3 years on the line and I still do not make high twenties.Since this thread has been jacked more times than not, I'll just chime in and say society priorities are seriously messed up. I type into a glowing box all day and I make more than you do as a firefighter. I think among the essential services to society (which I would lump at least doctors, firefighters, police, military, and teachers into), doctors are the only ones who get paid what they should. If I was a sociologist or economist or something, I'd probably come up with some theory about it being related to the extra years of schooling and specialized knowledge necessary, but I'm not. So I'll just say that everyone who works in those services should be highly paid while the typing into a glowing box that I pretend to do 8 hours a day is way overpaid.
It's my opinion that the money goes where the money comes from...
Fer example. My little corner of my company pulls in a very handsome contract for my company. (The gov't pays my company much money for my and several other people's services.) So we are compensated for it. The same goes for ball players, etc. They make boatloads of money for their owners, so they are compensated for it.
As important as they are (and don't get me wrong, collecting my garbage and protecting my home from fire are some of the most important jobs the city does for me) firefighters and garbage collectors do not make any money for the city. The city pays them purely off of the taxes that we pay them. And of course, no one wants to pay taxes. So who gets the short end of the stick?
It is truly unfortunate, but in a capitalist society, where everyone wants to pay zero taxes, only those who bring in money, get money.
Greg