Lots of tiny bonuses from race: less is more.


Races & Classes


I think that races ought to be pared down in terms of the bonus abilities they give; it's just so much to keep track of. Let's look at the dwarf:

--Darkvision 60'.
--Any profession related to stoneworking is a class skill.
--+2 on Perception checks to notice unusual stonework.
--Auto-detect unusual features of stonework.
--+2 bonus on taste/touch Perception checks.
--Can make Appraise checks as if trained on nonmagical items with precious metals/gems.
--+2 bonus against poison, SLAs, and spells.
--Weapon proficiencies.
--+1 to-hit against goblins/orcs.
--+4 dodge bonus against giants.
--+4 bonus against trip/bull rush attempts when on ground.

That's a lot to keep track of. Personally, I'd like to see it pared down to something like:

--Darkvision 60'.
--Auto-detect unusual features of stonework.
--+2 bonus on Fort saves.
--Weapon proficiencies.
--+4 bonus against trip/bull rush attempts when on ground.

What are your thoughts on this?


i like it. i've always thought the same way, and its something i would like to see them do. that being said i think that they won't as it seems too much of a change from 3.5

you might want to take a look at the Star Wars: Saga edition if you haven't already. most of the races in there only have 1 or 2 abilities and most of those abilities involve rerolling, not giving actual bonuses.

my personal thoughts are that a human is worth 6 feats:

1) bonus feat
2) skill focus feat (the +4 skill points at 1st)
3 - 6) humans get +1 skill point per level. this amounts to 19 skill points total. if a feat is worth 4 or 5 skill points, then humans basically get an additional 4 more feats over 20 levels

balance each race with the human (6 feats) and you should be set.


havok13 wrote:

my personal thoughts are that a human is worth 6 feats:

1) bonus feat
2) skill focus feat (the +4 skill points at 1st)
3 - 6) humans get +1 skill point per level. this amounts to 19 skill points total. if a feat is worth 4 or 5 skill points, then humans basically get an additional 4 more feats over 20 levels

balance each race with the human (6 feats) and you should be set.

That's just silly!

Dwarves get to cast Darkvision, at will, every day as a free action by opening their eyes - that's worth at least two feats. Basically skill focus to appraise and perception checks - that's at least a feat. Plus a thief-like "unusual feature" sense, there's another. +2 to the most common Fort save, there's a feat, plus *all* spells, that's another feat. Plus one to hit, that's a feat like weapon focus. +4 dodge - way better than dodge, another feat. All those weapon proficiencies add up to at least two feats (three if not a fighter). And that +4 against trip is similar to defensive combat training - another feat.

That's 10 feats for Dwarves. Easily a match for those human "skill point" feats...

[/sarcasm]


Not really the point, fellas.

EDIT: Looks like my earlier thread showed up. Whoops :).


Bump 'cause I feel that this is very important.


I agree.

I'd like fewer, but more significant differences. Barring that, it would be nice if the racial features were grouped by cause.

Natural born miners
+ Darkvision
+ +2 to such and such
+ detects so and so
+ weapon familiarity with hammers, axes, picks, mine carts....

Short n' stout
+ +4 AC v.s. list of big humanoids
+ Natural enemy: so and so
+ Moves 20 feet/round in any armor


That's a really good idea to make things less confusing, although I'm still on board for fewer, more significant changes myself.

Dark Archive

I'd prefer fewer fiddly little differences myself. The Dwarf, Gnome and Halfling lists just got silly, and when sub-races of those three started showing up with even *more* fiddly abilities (Whisper Gnomes, anyone), it was insane. Who needs an entire page of racial abilities that are individually almost meaningless?

I longed for the simplicity of the Half-Orc. Darkvision. Some stat modifiers. Go kill stuff.

Or the Human. Free Feat. Extra skill points. Go forth!

It didn't help that a lot of the 'racial' abilities were more 'cultural' abilities. I don't think that Gnomes are *born* with an understanding of how to hit Kobolds, or that Dwarves are *born* with bonuses to hit Orcs or Goblinoids or that Elves *racially* understand the use of swords and bows.

What if I'm playing a Gnome who was born in Zilargo (in Eberron) and has never *seen* a Kobold? What if I'm playing an Elf from a group that lives in the deep woods and doesn't use swords, preferring spears? Too many of these 'racial' abilities, these little tiny fiddly pluses, are just cultural straightjackets that don't really mean much. I'd rather they be seperated out and made optional packages, so that my woodsy elf can be trained in spears and bows, and my city-dwelling Gnome has no idea how to fight a Kobold but has a +2 bonus to Diplomacy or Gather Information rolls or something.


Set wrote:

I'd prefer fewer fiddly little differences myself. The Dwarf, Gnome and Halfling lists just got silly, and when sub-races of those three started showing up with even *more* fiddly abilities (Whisper Gnomes, anyone), it was insane. Who needs an entire page of racial abilities that are individually almost meaningless?

I longed for the simplicity of the Half-Orc. Darkvision. Some stat modifiers. Go kill stuff.

Or the Human. Free Feat. Extra skill points. Go forth!

It didn't help that a lot of the 'racial' abilities were more 'cultural' abilities. I don't think that Gnomes are *born* with an understanding of how to hit Kobolds, or that Dwarves are *born* with bonuses to hit Orcs or Goblinoids or that Elves *racially* understand the use of swords and bows.

What if I'm playing a Gnome who was born in Zilargo (in Eberron) and has never *seen* a Kobold? What if I'm playing an Elf from a group that lives in the deep woods and doesn't use swords, preferring spears? Too many of these 'racial' abilities, these little tiny fiddly pluses, are just cultural straightjackets that don't really mean much. I'd rather they be seperated out and made optional packages, so that my woodsy elf can be trained in spears and bows, and my city-dwelling Gnome has no idea how to fight a Kobold but has a +2 bonus to Diplomacy or Gather Information rolls or something.

I have to agree with the lists of abilities getting too long. Drop the fiddly ones and make the good ones slightly better if there's a balance issue.


There's a simple solution -- if laundry lists of racial traits are too much to keep track of, play a human. Humans are the standard, against which other races have lists of differences. The sorts of people who like playing weird critters like gnomes are typically the ones who don't mind long lists of racial quirks.

The Pathfinder half-elf has some elf racial traits, but it's a pared-down list, so that they're mechanically almost human. If simple, human-like races are your thing, make half-dwarves and half-gnomes as well, modeling them similarly. Or eliminate items from the list by DM fiat. But don't mandate hamstringing the racial features lists, because some people really like them.

Set - your point about bonuses to hit kobolds is well-taken; I'd prefer to see those as racial bonus feats, with other options ("choose from the list of bonus feats available for your race").


B.T. wrote:
Not really the point, fellas.

so what is your point?


steven barth wrote:
B.T. wrote:
Not really the point, fellas.
so what is your point?

Simplification.


B.T. wrote:
steven barth wrote:
B.T. wrote:
Not really the point, fellas.
so what is your point?
Simplification.

ahhhh....sorry bout that. i had to slap my head after i posted that as i realized what exactly you were getting at. and the computer took forever to load the screens, so i gave up. anywho, my point was that each race should get 6 'equivalent' feats to balance with the human. this would simplify them i should think.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

I wouldn't really consider the human worth 6 feats. Specialization is key, which means that their racial skill upgrade is best used towards maximizing a single skill, especially since splitting it up makes it work like the normal races' piddly skill bonuses.

Now there's an idea, why not give each race maximum ranks in a particular skill (and it's automatically a class skill)? It would be easier to make comparisons that way, and you could get rid of alot of the mini-skill bonuses.

Just as an aside, I actually dislike darkvision as a common trait; if only because of the intra-party annoyance when some have it and others don't. Low-light vision is only truly associated with the elves, and you can remove it if you make them automatically fully proficient in Perception. Dwarves are a race of forgers, so they're used to having fire around, and the range penalties for spotting in poor light are negligible with cramped tunnels anyway; though I could at understand low-light applying to them.


I'm inclined to agree with the 'less is more' idea. I'm not a fan of lots of little things for my players to jot down. I like quick and easy creation, and then intricate development.

Also, I think having a more significant (albeit fewer) bonuses will go a long way towards making a race 'feel' like an important part of character creation (I think an elf fighter should feel distinctive from a dwarf fighter).

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