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Simplicity vs. customization is a theme that has cropped up on many of the skills discussion. Another issue that has been repeated is the idea that pick up a skill at later levels suddenly makes you among the world's best at X, when you had no skill in it before at all.
Here is an attempt at a solution that allows for customization and simplification while allowing for growth that lends a bit of logic to that growth.
Replace the additional trained skills gained every other level (page 9) with "Knack". Allow all characters to choose 2 "Knacks" at first level. Make "Skill Training" a feat.
Knack
The character has a talent, hobby, or interest that he maintains without fully developing the skill.
The character gains a +2 Bonus to the skill and may use the skill as if he is trained in it. A Character may not choose a skill he is fully trained in as a Knack skill. A character may choose the same skill more than once if it is a class skill. Knack bonuses stack.
Skill Training {General Feat}
The character has spent time developing a skill to the fullest of his abilities.
Choose a skill a character has chosen as a "knack" skill. The character becomes fully trained in that skill. If it is a class skill, the character's bonus is equal to his character level+3. If it is cross-classed, the character bonus is equal to 1/2 (character level+3)
The advantage to this is that characters gains more depth, continues to grow, but has to spend a Feat to get the full-blown advantages of a trained skill.
For example:
Dworgoth, Dwarven Fighter, Int 12, can choose 3 (2+Int Bon) trained skills and 2 knacks at first level. He chooses Intimidate, Knowledge Dungeoneering), and Survival as his trained skills, and Knowledge (Engineering) and Profession (Miner) as his knack skills, flushing out his background that he came from a family of dwarven miners (sticking with cliche here just for fun).
Now, after several adventures, he has gone to 6th level.
At 2nd level, he picked up Ride as a Knack, having picked out a fine mare from the stables, naming her Molly.
At 4th level, he picks up Appraise as a Knack, because he begins to suspect the party is hoarding the best loot.
At 6th, he picks up a Perception as a Knack, since the monsters he's encountering are getting a little tricky. In addition, he acquires the Skill Training feat for Ride, since he and Molly seem to be spending a lot of time together.
So, Dworgoth has Appraise 2, Intimidate 9, Knowledge Dungeoneering 9, Knowledge Engineering 2, Perception 2, Profession Miner 2, Ride 9, Survival 9.
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And this was my solution in the keep skill points thread:
NSTR wrote:
What if you assign all your skills at 1st level instead of gaining new skills every few levels. Since the skill points are removed you do not need to slowly dish out skills like was needed to do with skill points. You are still going to progress the same no matter when you get the skills. Part of the brainstorm comes from the weirdness with gaining a new skill for a high level character and it is already maxed out when you get it.
While using this method still use the option mentioned above about using one skill pick to do two lesser skill picks. Then at first level your character can be fully customized.
Class and cross-class skills can be kept in this situation and could be a lot more important. This may slightly deter taking rogue at first level for its skills because of what its cross-class skills might be.
As far as how many skills every character gets at first level could be a large discussion, but one that could be realtively easily solved.This is very important to the discussion, but I do not know how the numbers will work out yet. How many skills should you gain at first level?
In general I think there could be a base amount and some classes allowing more than the base.
Of course this does not change the taking rogue at first level problem, but however we solve it I do not think this method will make that any more difficult.
Now if for some reason during your adventuring career you wanted you character to pick up a new skill there can be a mechanic to do that and I always revert to a feat, but there could be another way. Remember though if you assign a bunch of skills at first level I do not see this happening much, but even if it does I can't imagine a character wanting more than one or two more skills.
Replace the additional trained skills gained every other level (page 9) with "Knack". Allow all characters to choose 2 "Knacks" at first level. Make "Skill Training" a feat.
Reckless,
That's a simple, elegant solution to the issues you've raised. It has the virtue of adhering strongly to the "Saga" model, eschewing skill points and the like and keeping everything as simple as possible, yet it addresses both customization and instant advancement.Now, if there were a way to eventually develop a knack into a full skill without spending a feat...
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And this was my solution in the keep skill points thread:
I'm sorry, but I'd prefer it if people discussed the pros and cons of th original post here rather than list a bunch of other solutions. I'm not opposed to discussion other solutions, but I'd prefer it if this thread remained "on topic". Thank you in advance for your understanding.
DMReckless
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Replace the additional trained skills gained every other level (page 9) with "Knack". Allow all characters to choose 2 "Knacks" at first level. Make "Skill Training" a feat.Reckless,
That's a simple, elegant solution to the issues you've raised. It has the virtue of adhering strongly to the "Saga" model, eschewing skill points and the like and keeping everything as simple as possible, yet it addresses both customization and instant advancement.Now, if there were a way to eventually develop a knack into a full skill without spending a feat...
Thank you.
One thought might be to change it to the following:
Taking a "Knack" in a skill twice fully develops the skill into a "trained skill" with the bonus being lvl+3 for class skills and [lvl+3]/2 for cross-class skills.
Thus, if you want to be fully trained, you only have to give up picking up a new "hobby", in favor of increasing your focus on an old one.
Taking a "Knack" in a skill twice fully develops the skill into a "trained skill" with the bonus being lvl+3 for claqss skills and [lvl+3]/2 for cross-class skills.
Thus, if you want to be fully trained, you only have to give up picking up a new "hobby", in favor of increasing your focus on an old one.
Hey, that's not bad. It's not, to my mind, as flexible as a separate skill point option, but it's a LOT better than the currently-propsed all or nothing. Still, on the whole I'd prefer to see a Saga-like system as the default, with a sidebar on converting them to skill points.
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Hey, that's not bad. It's not, to my mind, as flexible as a separate skill point option, but it's a LOT better than the currently-propsed all or nothing. Still, on the whole I'd prefer to see a Saga-like system as the default, with a sidebar on converting them to skill points.
No, and as someone whose first thought at seeing the lack of skill points was "Noooooooo! Not my skill points!" I completely agree that it isn't as customizable as skill points.
But I'm hoping that it goes far enough into customization to help people,who, like me, love the flexibility skill points offer, come to an accommodation with those who want simplification. And be close enough to something both the gamist/simulationist-leaning sides can agree works towards both those viewpoints.This system is about compromise and coming together at a happy medium while maintaining backwards compatability/easy conversion. I don't know if it accomplishes those goals. :)
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If I am understanding this correctly I have a couple of issues with it.
You did not mention the amount of starting skills changing. Part of the customization issue, that even Kirth had mentioned, was that at first level you would not be able to have a customized character. Your proposed version only address the addtional skills you get when leveling up.
Also a player that wanted to be fully trained in all the skills they take would have to take many feats to do that. Not one or two feats. So in effect it overly caters to customization. It almost become default.
EDIT: Oh, and maybe you should label your thread RECKLESS Alternate Skill System. Did not know it was just to talk about your solution, sorry.
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If I am understanding this correctly I have a couple of issues with it.
You did not mention the amount of starting skills changing. Part of the customization issue, that even Kirth had mentioned, was that at first level you would not be able to have a customized character. Your proposed version only address the addtional skills you get when leveling up.
In the original post:
Allow all characters to choose 2 "Knacks" at first level
Also a player that wanted to be fully trained in all the skills they take would have to take many feats to do that. Not one or two feats. So in effect it overly caters to customization. It almost become default.
You're right about the maximized fully trained in all skills issue.
The solution Kirth and I discussed about taking a knack twice to "upgrade" it instead of having to take a feat might address this issue.
EDIT: Oh, and maybe you should label your thread RECKLESS Alternate Skill System. Did not know it was just to talk about your solution, sorry.
Thank you for participating. I was afraid you might take my "tone" negatively - I probably should have made my intention clearer in the original post or thread title, you are correct.
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How about increasing the starting skills of all class by 3 or 5 and then have characters get a new skill choice every 3 levels like ability scores do.
Using your knack system still for starting skills and additional gained skills.
EDIT: I am a little confused about how cross-class skills come into play with this. I was unclear to me from your initial post.
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How about increasing the starting skills of all class by 3 or 5 and then have characters get a new skill choice every 3 levels like ability scores do.
Using your knack system still for starting skills and additional gained skills.
EDIT: I am a little confused about how cross-class skills come into play with this. I was unclear to me from your initial post.
Knacks are unaffected by being cross-classed. Only when they become "fully trained" are they affected by being cross-classed. Initially, I was going to say CC Knacks only get a +1 Bonus instead of +2, but that seemed to go against the customization grain.
If a skill is cross-classed, you only train it up to [Lvl+3]/2 instead of level+3.
In regards to when the skills increase, I believe every 2 levels was chosen to get rid of some "dead" levels, and I think that's a good thing. Of course, there are still dead levels.
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Taking up the challenge of Mr. Bulmahn with the Knack System
Take the following examples...
1 - Add 8 levels of ranger to a troll. Make sure to account for the upgrade to the elite array (which might affect Int).
Let’s assume the Troll’s Int is raised to a 10. Giants get 2+Int Mod skills, and show Listen and Spot as their “Racial Skills”.
So we’ll say the Troll chooses Perception (“Class”) and let’s say Survival (“Cross-Class”) because of how they live in the wilds as its first level skills. We’ll give it Knacks in Stealth and Intimidate. 5 more racial HD, resulting in a gain of Knacks at 2nd,4th, and 6th. Let’s say he picks up Climb, Swim, and Stealth (making Stealth Trained) Through 8 more levels of Ranger, he picks up 4 more Knacks. Let’s Pick Acrobatics x2, Deception, and Knowledge (Nature).So (assuming Stealth and Survival are Ranger Skills and Acrobatics is not) we get
Acrobatics 10+Dex Mod, Climb 2+Str Mod, Deception 2+Cha Mod, Intimidate 2+Cha Mod, Knowledge(Nature) 2+Int, Perception 17+Wis Mod, Stealth 17+Dex Mod, Swim 2+Dex Mod
2 - Build the skills for the following character: Rogue 2/Wizard 6/Fighter 2/Arcane Archer 4. Remember that the character's Int score increased from 14 to 15 at 4th, and to 16 at 8th.
Ok, (Elf or Half Elf) 14 Int Rog Lvl 1 chooses 10 Skills: Acrobatics, Appraise, Deception, Disable Device, Knowledge (Dungeoneering), Linguistics, Perception, Stealth, Theft, Use Magic Device. And 2 Knacks: Knowledge (Local) and Knowledge (Arcana).
Second Level, he spends his gained Knack to pick up Knowledge (Arcana) as a trained skill, noting that he’s headed to Wizard school. 6 levels of Wizard nets 3 Knacks. Preparing for his eventual rise to Arcane Archer, he spends 2 of these on Spellcraft to make it a trained skill, and puts the last in Knowledge (The Planes). 2 Levels of Fighter gets him another Knack, which he puts in Fly. And 4 more levels brings 2 more Knacks. He puts them in Fly and Knowledge (The Planes) (raising them to Trained)If the Intelligence bump at level 8 gains another skill (not sure with the PF system), he could choose another skill as well (let’s say it does and he chose Craft (Alchemy).)
So he gets
Acrobatics 17+Dex Bon, Appraise 17+Int Bon, Craft (Alchemy) 17+Int Bon, Deception 17+Dex Int, Disable Device 17+Int Bon, Fly 17+Dex Bon, Knowledge (Arcana) 17+Int Bon, Knowledge (Dungeoneering) 17+Int Bon, Knowledge (Local) 2+Int, Knowledge (The Planes) 17+Int Bon, Linguistics 17+Int Bon, Perception 17+Wis Bon, Spellcraft 17+Int Bon, Stealth 17+Dex Bon, Theft 17+Dex Bon, Use Magic Device 17+Cha Bon
3 - Build a party of rival 9th level adventurers to challenge the PCs. Aside from equipment (which I will get to in a later release), the skills are going to be the time consuming component.
I’ll have to hit this after some sleep.