I like most of what Paizo is doing, but I just don't like the idea of limiting these feats by a stat. The base attack bonus has been maybe a bit too little of a restriction, but this is just too much.
I know your trying to keep thing simple, but I personally would have your stat modifier + 1/2 your base attack bonus (rounded down). Maybe you can think of something else better, but please not what you currently have.
Maybe I am missing something here, but this is how it looks to me.
P.S. I hope you make all skills useful at all levels, because there is only so much food I can really use from survival check. I will also miss skill tricks.
Actually, I think this is a good idea for Power Attack. It makes at least as much sense as the original rule.
Even if you're really skilled (10th level fighter, +10 BAB), if you're not very strong, why should you be able to add so much to your damage when you sacrifice accuracy? Where does the "power" come from if you've only got a 10 Str? I'm not sure that it makes sense that you can trade your "skill-based" BAB to-hit bonuses for extra damage.
The benefit is that if you're really strong but unskilled (1st level with a 16 Str, for instance). You can start using power attack right away to get good damage, especially if you're carrying a two-handed weapon. But if you're taking a -6 to your +1 BAB for the juicy +6 to damage, you're going to have to be lucky to hit much.
For Combat Expertise, I could go either way. Using both Int and BAB as the basis for the Dodge bonus makes sense.
What I like about using INT is that a low level character can take this at 1st level and use it right away if they have a good INT. In 3.5 there was little point in taking it at 1st level, but now a high INT 1st level Rogue can use it. And it make a high INT fighter interesting.
well I like the changes to power attack its simple and goes with the flavor of the feat.
This is nice at low levels, but it seriously reduced the power at higher levels. I don't know of any way to get a +20 strength modifier by level 20. I find it hard enough to get +10 by 15th, and then its about caped out at about strength 44 strength with a 17 mod.
This is if they are barbarian with a str of 20, raging, with a +6 belt, and has used a +5 book, and all 5 stat points into their str.
This is just too much of a gimp.
This is just too much of a gimp.
I disagree. The original Power Attack rules were quite broken. This is much better.
This is just too much of a gimp.I disagree. The original Power Attack rules were quite broken. This is much better.
Feel sorry for the fighter wanting to power attack. They don't get the +8 to strength, or the one wanting to focus on defense.
P.S. The power attack rules were only really broken when you ignored the multiplier rules from feats that had to do with power attack.
P.S. The power attack rules were only really broken when you ignored the multiplier rules from feats that had to do with power attack.
Disagree again. I like the power attack in the Alpha and I hope they keep it that way.
Feel sorry for the fighter wanting to power attack. They don't get the +8 to strength, or the one wanting to focus on defense.
Plus weapon training and armor training now make up for what fighters lose from the new power attack... without having to take feats for it.
Here is an idea.
Have these two feats require a base attack bonus of +6. You can only devote your base attack -5 into your power attack or combat expertise.
Example: If you have a base attack bonus of 6, you can apply 1 to your power attack. If you have a base attack bonus of 10, you can apply 5 to you power attack bonus. If you have a 15 you can apply 10 and so on.
One of the things that I like about the new power attack and combat expretise is that it minimizes the math. It's always your strength modifier or your intelligence modifier (depending on which feat you're using) and not a dynamic number that has to be recalculated and slows down the combat round. I'm all for it.
One of the things that I like about the new power attack and combat expretise is that it minimizes the math. It's always your strength modifier or your intelligence modifier (depending on which feat you're using) and not a dynamic number that has to be recalculated and slows down the combat round. I'm all for it.
Calculating things like this before game usually quickens things.
Base Attack: 15
Power Attack\
one handed: 15
two handed: 30
It really isn't all that different from their power attack in complexity. Sorry but I think your nitpicking now.
Sorry but I think your nitpicking now.
Please do not attribute motivations to other posters and let's discuss the topic. Thanks.
Calculating things like this before game usually quickens things.
Base Attack: 15
Power Attack\
one handed: 15
two handed: 30
While I agree that calculations beforehand are quite benificial for ease of play, not all people will take the time to do this (especially some of my players). As "math-light" as your suggestion may be, I still prefer the alpha version, as it is almost "math-non-existant" and prevents a fighter from doing [slight exageration]a billion points of damage[/slight exageration] with power attack RAW.
While I agree that calculations beforehand are quite benificial for ease of play, not all people will take the time to do this (especially some of my players).
I'll echo this concern. I have had players who are really, really good about this, and others who are really, really bad, bad to the point where I, as the DM, do all the maths for them before the game, and provide final calculations for all modifiers and options on a note card, and it still takes several minutes to resolve their action.
I'll echo this concern. I have had players who are really, really good about this, and others who are really, really bad, bad to the point where I, as the DM, do all the maths for them before the game, and provide final calculations for all modifiers and options on a note card, and it still takes several minutes to resolve their action.While I agree that calculations beforehand are quite benificial for ease of play, not all people will take the time to do this (especially some of my players).
Yeah but that WONT change that fact any, even with this new feat write up.
You know after thinking about it, I found that power attack isn't all that over powered. Combat expertise is.
Str has a number of different bonuses such as sacred and the such.
However this DOS make the game more complicated having to re-figure the bonuses every time a spell is cast on you.
For some reason the quote function isn't working right, and it didn't register my last post.
I'll echo this concern. I have had players who are really, really good about this, and others who are really, really bad, bad to the point where I, as the DM, do all the maths for them before the game, and provide final calculations for all modifiers and options on a note card, and it still takes several minutes to resolve their action.
I take it back. Power Attack isn't underpowered. It is just OVER complicated. There are a number of spells out there that increase str that items can't normally give, such as sacred etc. So you will end up having to recalculate your max power attack every time a buff spell that adds str is cast.
Combat expertise isn't however functional. Fighters just don't have the spare stat to put a 18 into this, and there are far less spells to increase it.