Downloaded the new rules, and had a quick read.
Like the ideas on skills. Simplifies the system without negating DC. An option for (+ class level) would be (+ levels skill has been known) - would make skill choice earlier on count more than picking up at skill at 10th level and instantly becoming master. That could complicate what is supposed to simplify the system.
My big question is the healing during turning undead. What would stop players from "Turning Undead" when there is no undead around, just to heal the group?
Gene
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My big question is the healing during turning undead. What would stop players from "Turning Undead" when there is no undead around, just to heal the group?
By re-reading it, the answer is: not a darn thing. You'd use up one of your Turn attempts for the day, of course, but that seems to be the point.
-DM Jeff
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I think that would work well in a non-combat situation, provided that you had turns remaining and of course that you didn't think you'd need them later(I suspect that with the new system you'll want to have them available if you fight any undead, they are genuinely useful now).
However in combat it seems that you have to be much more careful and it adds a bit of tactics to it all. It doesn't appear that turning is targeted at all, so you can be healing any enemies who are up close and personal just like you are your allies.
It seems like an awful lot of healing available (3 + cha bonus per day) en masse without much to offset. Maybe a rule about the healing not taking effect if the Turn does no damage to undead? or even that the amount healed is equal to the amount of total damage done?
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I suspect that players are going to burn through the turns rather quickly and this is going to be a good reason for clerics to build up their charisma in the future. Having feats like turn outsider available give them more reasons to burn them.
It will take some playtesting to see if this is too much, however I suspect that as it stands now want to use them even more often then they have them, which is a cool balance. 'I could use the turn now and hit the undead, but none of the party is that hurt... Is it worth using it to try and drop them faster to save on casualties, or should I wait til someone actually needs some healing?'
Plus, think of how many times you have to dip into that CMW wand when you are mid-level. I'm playing the tank in a game where the characters are 8th level. If I am telling the cleric I'm hurt after a battle then I'm probably down about 70hp. An 8th level cleric can throw out something like 4d6 healing. That helps, but unless they are going to use all their turns for the day right then, they are burning spells too.
I suppose I see this as being something akin to the spell 'close wounds'. Its relatively minor healing compared to how often you do it, but if you make use of it at the right moment it can turn the tide. Thats cool.
-Tarlane
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It seems like an awful lot of healing available (3 + cha bonus per day) en masse without much to offset. Maybe a rule about the healing not taking effect if the Turn does no damage to undead? or even that the amount healed is equal to the amount of total damage done?
Honestly, I'm at the point I'll take just about anything (within reason) that keeps characters going longer between bouts of resting. I hate when players blow all their good shots in the first two or three encounters and want to camp so they can recharge to full before continuing. It's not such a stretch to find extra healing methods for clerics, and the Turn Undead ability feels like a good fit to try this.
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Anything that makes Charisma a more desirable stat is good with me. Every campaign I start with my group I always have to remind them that Charisma is not a dump stat any more. I have one player in particular who is notorious for playing dwarven clerics with low charisma but massive CON (usually his highest stat). If, by doing that, he's depriving the party of healing then that's an interesting dilema for him.
It seems like an awful lot of healing available (3 + cha bonus per day) en masse without much to offset. Maybe a rule about the healing not taking effect if the Turn does no damage to undead? or even that the amount healed is equal to the amount of total damage done?
The amount of healing (and damage) is fairly low, however. A 12th level cleric could reasonably expect to have 80 hit points, and each turning attempt would only heal about 21. (6d6) You'd be hard pressed to break anything with that.
For the outsider and elemental feats, I'm uncertain about the wording. It almost seems like they're getting healed and damaged simultaneously, for the same amount.
What makes the healing part too effective is that it heals 1d6 for the ENTIRE party. If the attempt only healed 1d6 for one individual I think that it would be perfect. That way it gives a little bit of healing without upstaging the cure light wounds spell.
why not have mass healing spells, or mass healing powers? These wouldnt burn Turn Undead. Clerics could get a scaling amount of these with Cha bonus as well.
GM
I'm glad that they're looking at changing the name, since these turning rules aren't actually rules for turning undead. They are rules for a Mass Cure Wounds spell where the increasing range of the Mass Cure spells have been exchanged for scaring away undead for a few seconds.
More notable is that this effect, which is free at least three times a day, is more powerful than the Mass Cure spells that are available at the same level. And that level of power is available sooner. In fact, the average healing from turning beats Mass Cure Light Wounds two levels before a cleric can even cast Mass Cure Light Wounds. (The math for this is at the end of the post.)
So at 7th level, the cleric has a power usable at least three times per day that is more effective within 30' than a spell he can't even cast yet. That seems a little too powerful to me. (I do realize that the greater range of the Mass Cure Spells makes up for this a little bit, but they also can't send undead fleeing in terror.)
I think turning undead does need to be revised, and I don't think it should have anything to do with healing, or even with positive or negative energy. I think it should be a simple matter or your will (and your god's will) versus that of the thing you wish to turn.
Perhaps this:
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1. A Will Save vs DC equal to 10 + 1/2 Cleric Level + Charisma modifier versus all undead in a radius of 30 feet, plus 5 feet per two cleric levels.
2. The undead's Turn Resistance adds to the die roll to make the save.
3. The turning inflicts 1d8 + Cleric Level hit points of damage to all undead within the radius of effect.
4. Those who fail the save suffer full damage and are treated as frightened for a number of rounds equal to the cleric's Charisma bonus (minimum of one round).
5. Those who make the save suffer half damage and are treated as shaken for one round.
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Example: Kyra tries to turn the four ghouls that are attacking the party. She is 4th level, and has a Charisma of 12 (10+2+1 = DC 13). The ghouls have a Will save of +5 and turn resistance of +2 for total bonus of +7. They need a 6 to resist. So Kyra has a 25% chance for each ghoul within 40 feet that they will take 1d8+4 damage and run like cowards for a round.
If they fail, they still take half damage and are shaken for a round.
I realize this is less effective than 3.5, where Kyra would have a 60% chance of forcing an average of 3 ghouls to flee for ten minutes. But that case then requires either letting evil get away, chasing the monsters, or pinning the cowering creatures and beating them to death. The first option isn't very heroic, the second is kind of counter intuitive ("We scared them off and now we have to track and kill them?"), and the third makes combat with the undead kind of a pathetic encounter.
Also, unlike 3.5, Kyra could use this power on a mummy or a spectre. That's something a she can't do in 3.5 (their effective HD are beyond her ability to roll on a turning check).
As promised,here's the math for my argument against the current version for those who are curious:
At 9th level: Mass Cure Light has an average healing of 13.5 hit points (1d8 + 9). Turning averages 17.5 (5d6).
At 11th level: Mass Cure Moderate has an average healing of 20 hit points (2d8 + 11). Turning averages 21 (6d6). (Cure Moderate ties with turning for one level at 12th level.)
At 13th level: Finally a Mass Cure spell catches up. Mass Cure Serious has an average healing of 26.5 hit points (3d8 + 11). Turning averages 24 (7d6). Still, it's only a 2 point improvement and at 17th level, turning takes the lead again.
At 15th level: Mass Cure Critical barely holds its own until level 24, when turning again takes the lead.
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I like this because it leads to another choice at character creation. My wife wanted to have a more combat heavy cleric, and left the charisma woefully low, which limited this power. Later in the adventure she really needed this ability, but had short circuited it through the choices that she made earlier. In a very simple and elegant way this simple change leads to more choices and consequences at earlier levels. I like that. You're character can be one thing or another, but not both. Heal your party, and your enemies...unless they're all undead and then you can have some evil melting fun with it.
Thanks,
Scott