All emphasis mine.
BarelyCoherent,
I must say, I found your post baffling. The very reason I first came here is specifically because I found the Paizo boards to be a bastion of civility and free thought in a sea of less welcoming and less balanced messageboards. There are a lot of really smart, interesting people here and they are usually far more polite than a couple of well known message boards with which I am familiar. Plenty of people disagree with me here, but they usually do so by setting forth their reasons for doing so. If there is a more civil, more welcoming and more thought-provoking messageboard somewhere, that would be news to me.
I'd have to agree. Strongly. I've learned alot from those that are excited about 4E here about why they are excited for the game. All other message boards I've gone to, the reason is (usually word for word), "Because 3.5 sucks and 4E is going to be so much better." I have seen some of the most intelligent discourse here concerning the game. Do I agree with everything? Heck no. But frankly, I can understand what about 4E is so appealing. I don't find it appealing but I am glad for them that find it appealing nonetheless.
I do find it somewhat concerning that all of your examples of rude behavior are of the anti-4th edition camp. I do not know if it was intended, but the implication is that pro-4th edition folk are nice and anti-4th edition folk are rude. It is my opinion that there have been offenders in both camps.
I'll go one step further and say that I have seen some very nasty statements by the pro-4E crowd here. (And no, I am not denying that the pro-3E crowd has not made equally nasty comments, myself included, but that is not my point at the moment.) But you provide few concrete examples. Can you please provide us with specific examples of elsewhere how these boards are seen as "bad." I don't mean one or two, I mean like 30-50. And no, I don't ACTUALLY expect you to do that. What I mean is to ask you to examine the number of people saying negative things about paizo's boards. Its easy to think that this is a terrible place if you hear 3 people say the same thing over and over and over again. IME, conventional wisdom is nothing but the loudest minority and not actually what the majority believe.
|
Seems like if I wanted to hear only positive things about the team that chose to kill off Dungeon and Dragon, I'd probably avoid the forums of the company that produced said magazines, since the people posting on those forums might have had some small affection for those magazines, and not be entirely smitten with WotC's decision to take that away from them.
And, as has been pointed out already, there are quite a few threads and boards with more upbeat assessments. It seems somewhat unreasonable to expect *every single person in the world* to only post things and / or hold opinions that reflect your own.
The appeal to Paizo to censor discourse in the title is particularly nice. And by 'nice,' I mean the opposite.
Amazingly enough, many people on these boards and others are criticizing new changes because *they want the game to be as good as it can be.* It's not mindless hate that's kept me playing D&D for 20+ years. I actually kinda like the game, despite not liking every single part of it, incomprehensible as that may sound, and want it to remain a fun game.
From the whacky viewpoint I have, being completely uncritical of something means that you don't care that much about it. *Everything* can be made better, and a careful look at 4E reveals at least a dozen ideas that were adapted from 3rd party sources or other genres entirely, indicating that, miracle of miracles, there are some halfway-decent ideas to be found outside of the WotC offices.
You don't turn iron into steel by saying nice things about it and handling it gently. You've got to turn the fire up and beat the crap out of it, hammer out those imperfections and make sure there aren't any weak points hiding under the surface.
I doubt anyone at WotC right now would tell you that the design of 4E was *easy.* It cheapens what they are attempting to do to suggest that we should all wait around with bated breath for the blessed event. It's big change to something that has influenced millions of lives for decades, and it warrants big talk.
Heck, if I worked at WotC, and the fan reaction to the announcement of 4E was a light smattering of applause and some generic praise for something that most of the fans hadn't seen yet anyway, I'd be freaking terrified that the fans didn't give even care what I was working my butt off to create!
A tempest in a teapot it may be, but the WotC designers can breathe a sigh of relief at all the FR fans howling about the changes to their setting (over on those boards that are supposed to be nicer than these ones, according to the OP) and say, "Wow, after all this time, the Realms is still loved! And with loved comes, commercially viable!"
Seems like if I wanted to hear only positive things about the team that chose to kill off Dungeon and Dragon, I'd probably avoid the forums of the company that produced said magazines, since the people posting on those forums might have had some small affection for those magazines, and not be entirely smitten with WotC's decision to take that away from them.
And an extra-special QFT.
Seems like if I wanted to hear only positive things about the team that chose to kill off Dungeon and Dragon, I'd probably avoid the forums of the company that produced said magazines, since the people posting on those forums might have had some small affection for those magazines, and not be entirely smitten with WotC's decision to take that away from them.And an extra-special QFT.
This is true. Though at the risk of turning everyone against me.. there is a time in which we will have to set aside our anger and our grief over a beloved institution.. and move on.
Paizo has picked itself up, dusted itself off, and created a very commercially viable product line in Pathfinder. I would never be so callous as to say that adversity is a good thing, but good things often arise from it anyway.
Strong roses grow in rocky soil.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Slight Threadjack:
I've been saying lately, that the delay in the GSL is almost as damaging as whatever decision will actually be made, either for 4th Edition, or against it.. Stuck in limbo like this is worse, because it has brought us to this place.
This fact I believe makes me think that even if Paizo do go 4e that Second Darkness will probably still be 3.5, as the timframe needed to successfully bring out a quality 4e product by Second Darkness' start date is rapidly diminishing.
Is this board really how Paizo wants to be represented?
I'm hoping that Paizo says "YES!"
As an observation:
I suspect that many people are more likely to notice- or at least to respond to and/or feel offended by- an arguement or comment which could be taken as offensive when it does not agree with their own opinions, than when it does.
Edit:
Strong emotions and opinions are sometimes expressed on both sides or debates/arguements on these Paizo threads- especially when relating to 4E. I can understand that to someone used to the moderation by messageboard moderators of strong emotions and opinions on some and/or all sides of a debate, this might certainly give offense.
Re-editted, bad day on the Diplomacy checks here. Smurf.
Paizo has picked itself up, dusted itself off, and created a very commercially viable product line in Pathfinder. I would never be so callous as to say that adversity is a good thing, but good things often arise from it anyway.
I won't call pulling the licence a good thing, but I would call Paizo's ability to remake the company in response to this licence nothing short of a feat of extraordinary proportions. Losing that kind of a licence would severely cripple or even destroy lesser companies (sorry WEG, as much as I love you, you never really recovered what you had after you lost Star Wars).
I really believe I have witnessed the rebirth of a Titan in the past year.
@BarelyCoherent and Chrischie:
As many others have said, I wouldn't hold Paizo hostage for allowing people to speak their minds. Many people are venting, possibly from the loss of investment in the old system, but many from the loss of the Dungeon and Dragon paper magazines. In many minds, including my own, Paizo saved the mags and thus have huge fan support. We sorely miss them. I could see this driving people to anger. But in time, hopefully these wounds will heal. All the while, Paizo has continued to pump out good stuff and I suspect they will, no matter what direction the hobby goes.
The company is concerned about the hobby and its fans. Nearly three years ago, my home was destroyed by a hurricane and I lost close to half of my gaming supplies. Unsolicited, Paizo sent a care package of gaming stuff to me. Did it help to fix my house? No, but it was a small ray of sunshine and it showed me the degree of compassion they have for D&D and gamers. Do not count them out because of the thoughts of others.
Slight Threadjack:
I've been saying lately, that the delay in the GSL is almost as damaging as whatever decision will actually be made, either for 4th Edition, or against it.. Stuck in limbo like this is worse, because it has brought us to this place.This fact I belive makes me think that even if Paizo do go 4e that Second Darkness will probably still be 3.5, as the timframe needed to successfully bring out a quality 4e product by Second Darkness' start date is rapidly diminishing.
Aye.
Someone once suggested that if Paizo did convert, that Second Darkness should still be 3.5, for those 3.5 fans who have supported Pathfinder thus far. As a thank you. The practical side to that, is that they could begin converting the modules first and give the 3.5 community a good six month period before having to decide. Many won't convert even after six months (and resent any suggestion that they do not know their own minds), but others might reconcile themselves to the changes with time and a gentle change over.
All hypotheticals of course, since the decision is not yet made.
But this is a threadjack. We were discussing how the community represents itself.
one other thing i just thought of....
I am sorry Paizo seems to have lost both of your business, but the sadder thing is that where there is two that have decided to say their piece, there are others that likely feel the same way and have not said a word, just walked away.
That being said, i don't agree that with the implication that Paizo through their silence supports the 4e bashing, or even the 3.5 bashing or any of the heated discourse. Consider the commentary you might get on a DVD you purchase. It might not be as heated or inflammatory i agree, but the views contained therein are not necessarily the views of the producers of the film. Should the commentary on the Lord of the Rings DVD reflect on Miramax? I don't think so, and you shouldn't take views on the forum as reflecting on Paizo just because they host the forums as a service.
|
This board is one of the few places that those that find the 4e rules less than stellar can meet to discuss the direction WotC is taking our game and hopefully salvage something out of the new rules for enhancing the 3e experience. The fact that there are some diehard 4e supporters here makes the conversation interesting, but at least here were are allowed to debate. The WotC and ENWorld sites are very rabidly pro-4e and dissenting threads are occasionally shut down and posters banned. I do not post on those forums for that reason. What I find amusing is that the very fact that this is one of the places on the web where 4e and 3e people can actually have a dialog (heated at times admittedly) is itself a cause for complaining from the pro-4e crowd.
Look people - those that support 4e have EnWorld, WotC, the rules edition they want coming out; what more do you want? If you want to have a meeting where you never have disagreement go to one of the many places that won't allow debate. It seems though that you want to come here, because debate is allowed, and then complain about the debate. When will you be pleased? When "disagreement" consists of how much better one 4e rule is than the way it was done before? When no anti-4e posts are allowed at all, or only ones that you approve of and meet your standards of acceptability? When everyone that disagrees with you is gone as one of the pro-4e people has requested? When you are allowed to copy and paste obviously erroneous information from other boards to this one and no one calls you on it?
If you are going to enter a public forum where debate is allowed, be polite, avoid making the first mistake, and be prepared to be challenged when you are wrong or your point of view is not accepted as gospel. And contrary to the political correctness movement, simply being demonstratively wrong, unimaginative, plageristic, or just plain angry about another's point of view does not mean you are a wounded dove that requires sheltering and nurturing from the cruelty of the world nor does it mean that you have personally been injured or slighted.
Wait, let me guess, someone is offended by this post and feels it is a personal attack. What is this world coming to?
I am against censorship. I am thick skinned enough to handle a couple monkeys flinging poo. I am not suggesting the original poster is thinned skinned, a monkey nor poo. Freedom of speech goes both ways and means you have to take the good with the bad. Censoring everything you do not like is all well and good until you find yourself standing outside of the majority and suddenly become the target of censorship.
|
|
That being said, i don't agree that with the implication that Paizo through their silence supports the 4e bashing, or even the 3.5 bashing or any of the heated discourse.
A useful point. I don't consider Paizo in any way responsible for the name-calling I get from the 4E supporters on this site. (Grognard, whiner, hypocrite, hater, liar, irrational, religious fanatic, etc.)
Both sides have their trolls, which, unfortunately, get a lot more attention than the softer-spoken supporters and critics of the upcoming system.
To the OP:
Bingo.
Passive-aggressive personal attacks thinly veiled as comments about WOTC's target market are the order of the day. I agree they should be stopped, but the few times I' ve expressed said opinion I've been completely shut down.
I've learned to pick through the garbage because there really are many bright people with interesting things to say. I'm hoping that the release of 4E will put an end to most of it; if it doesn't, then I'll probably gradually stop participating altogether.
Before the 4th edition announcement by WotC, these messageboards were known to be the most friendly on the web. [...] Personally, I have asked for a more civil discussion on both sides, with some success. [...]
Most of my staff doesn't read the 4th edition forums any longer, because of the negativity portrayed there. We've discussed taking steps to force more civility, but really don't like to take such draconian measures. We were hoping that our community leaders would step in and help keep things on an even keel, but I think that even many of them are skipping the 4e forums.
I, personally, would like to see moderation engaged on the 4E forums.
You've tried waiting and seeing if it would calm down. You've tried asking for people to play nice. Neither of these things has worked.
The decline of civilised discussion here recently upsets me and, yes, does make me less likely to continue buying Paizo products. Because this forum does reflect on the company.
Six months ago I recommended these forums to my friends who were thinking about getting back into D&D as a fun place to hang out and read about the interesting things that were going on.
I wouldn't make that recommendation today.
|
The company is concerned about the hobby and its fans. Nearly three years ago, my home was destroyed by a hurricane and I lost close to half of my gaming supplies. Unsolicited, Paizo sent a care package of gaming stuff to me. Did it help to fix my house? No, but it was a small ray of sunshine and it showed me the degree of compassion they have for D&D and gamers. Do not count them out because of the thoughts of others.
Paizo stock just went up in my book.
|
I’m not sure that is quite accurate, that most posters here dislike Eberron. A lot do, a lot don’t.
I'll grant you that. Maybe my impression arose from the fact that it usually is kinda difficult to get feedback on a Eberron-related thread (if compared to Greyhawk and/or Forgotten Realms threads). But you are right, maybe it's just that many people simply aren't interested in the ECS.
The point I was trying to make, though, was that nobody considers my opinion anyhow inferior just because I like a setting he "hates" for whatever reason; at least as long as I don't consider his opinion inferior to mine, that is. And that is what seems to happen more often than not in the 4E boards. "Winning arguments" instead of "sharing opinions". Same happened in some of the Eberron threads, or with regard to Wil Wheaton's column in Dungeon Magazine. Each and every time feelings run high you can point to a moment when someone said "you're wrong" instead of "I disagree".This is where the difference lies; at least some people here do appear to be attacked (either overtly or covertly) because they love 4e.
As I said before, I tend to ignore the 4e boards nowadays so I can't deny it. But I'm quite sure that this goes for both sides of the story. And take a look at this thread. A lot of people (including you) have written great answers. But what Chrischie quotes is the single poster who hits the wrong note. So what I tried to explain is that he seems to have a wrong perception of what the Paizo community is all about. And given how many reasonable answers he has chosen to ignore so far, I was not too successful :)
regards,
Wormy
The company is concerned about the hobby and its fans. Nearly three years ago, my home was destroyed by a hurricane and I lost close to half of my gaming supplies. Unsolicited, Paizo sent a care package of gaming stuff to me. Did it help to fix my house? No, but it was a small ray of sunshine and it showed me the degree of compassion they have for D&D and gamers. Do not count them out because of the thoughts of others.
Wow... Paizo went up in my estimation too.
It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I would disagree that 4E is all hot air, if you go to ENWorld you will find lots of hard data from the D&D Experience event, including rules hand-outs and pregen characters. Some of what I have seen strikes me as interesting, some not-so.
That threadjack over, I also have found that I have read the posts of and chatted with some other forum members in various topics, and found them to be intelligent, humourous and interesting... but in 4E topics, all sense of civil discourse goes out the window. I have also found it depressing that Lisa's sticky has still been ignored.
|
|
I don't think you can judge Paizo (or any co.) for having open forums.
People are people and each have their own ideas of what is a good game and what is not.
In my game group we sometimes have heated debates about rules, I look at the forum as much the same.
Some see 4E as a savior others as a demon both are free to talk here.
It does seem that 4E is splitting the community more then other editions have and people seem angrier - this just shows that both sides are passionate about the game and care about "where it is going" just in different ways.
I think 99% of the dissenting voices stem from the fact that they're actually scared that Paizo might go entirely 4e and thus won't produce any more Pathfinder goodness for 3.5. Their written words might say otherwise, but I truly believe this is the deep down fear that drives most of the anti-4e crowd.
I definitly have to agree with this.
I am not a 4th Edition hater. My only problem with 4th edition is that its existance will stop the publishing of 3.5 D&D material. Hackmaster, Castles & Crusades, True20 and the rest of the RPGs dont have that problem that 3.5 D&D does.
Unintentionally or not..A new RPG is responsible for the stamping out of the RPG I like to play.
Anyway, I am afraid of 4th edition. I'll admit it. I have looked into it and have seen a game I dont find I will enjoy. So it saddens me that it has caused the end of Goodman's 3.5 Dungeon Crawl Classics. It dissapoints that Necromancer Games' Slumbering Tzar trilogy is cancelled.....But most importantly it TERRIFIES me that the Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign setting will also "go astray and leave me".
I am not much of a troll..or even a confrontation person. I dont post much and when I do its never really nasty posts. But I can say with 100% certainty that my "hate" for 4th edition stems from that it may "poison" Pathfinder and get it to convert. Im not alone in feeling this way, and some who do are confrontational people.
This board is going through a rough time right now because none of us know what will happen in terms of Pathfinder's future. Wether we know it or not I'm guessing we are all subconciously hoping that with every post we type up that someone at Paizo reads our post and is effected by our opinion.
My prediction is that once the decision is made there will me much despairing, cheering, teeth knashing and name calling.
Once that dies down the board will become civil again. It will either stay 3.5 and 4th edition supporters will go away. Or Paizo will convert to 4th and alot of the 3.5 supporters will go away.
If we ride it out this will soon pass.
I know Piazo doent want to lose anyone..but unfortunatly 4th edition is comming so this fate is unavoidable.
|
|
First, and foremost of the offending posts on this boards are the insulting remarks that are commonly made toward people who are looking forward to the new edition. These are usually (not always) not direct insults. The indirect insults are pretty common though. Anytime someone disparages the intended market audience for 4e, you're insulting someone here. Specifying that you're talking about subliterate teenagers (that probably play WoW, the miscreants) doesn't make it less of an insult. If I asked WotC if I were in the intended audience of 4e, they'd say yes. Since I like many of the upcoming changes, when someone states that the changes were made to entice brainless MMORPGers, you're insulting me too. Not in a direct way, but in an indirect passive aggressive way. On some other boards (like RPGnet or ENworld) this behavior gets called out frequently, because the inhabitants of the board don't want to discuss issues in that sort of environment. Most of the time this board gives behavior like that a pass. The one time I recall seeing it called out, one of the other posters immediately after defended a completely direct personal attack. Classy.
While I admit that I do share your concerns concerning the negativity and personal attacks, they are hardly limited to the Paizo boards. Many of the other boards out there, WotC's boards for a prime example, are full of just as negative and nasty attacks. So while, like I said, I agree with your opinion on the negative posts, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss Paizo. I mean if your going to dismiss a great company with great products just because of a few bad apples then your probably going to dismiss WotC all together, or any other company out there with similar posts on their boards.
Don't give up hope. There are just as many thoughtful and well intentioned posters here that can make for some very good conversation and debate.
|
|
I, personally, would like to see moderation engaged on the 4E forums.
So Paizo should go with the ENWorld/WotC moderation approach and ban or shut down pro-4e threads since the majority of those that participate in the polls indicate that they are against 4e? Or by moderation, do you mean moderation that supports your point of view or meets your definition of "nice"?
The decline of civilised discussion here recently upsets me and, yes, does make me less likely to continue buying Paizo products. Because this forum does reflect on the company.
Six months ago I recommended these forums to my friends who were thinking about getting back into D&D as a fun place to hang out and read about the interesting things that were going on.
I wouldn't make that recommendation today.
I admire Paizo because they seem to go against the grain and carve their own path. They understand the importance of customer relationships and have that entrepreneurial spirit that I greatly admire. The day they begin to bow to pressure of this kind is the day they begin to fall from extraordinary to mundane. I can get my gaming products from anywhere. I have about $300 of merchandise on order and much more planned, but my money goes to Paizo because they have a strong independent spirit and a can-do attitude. That is why I direct all seven of my weekly players to shop from here whenever they can.
Why do I say this? Because throwing the weight of your wallet around isn't all that impressive really. We can all do it and it doesn't help Paizo either way. What would help is if we all approach the forums in a measured fashion, make sure we are standing on firm logical ground when voicing our concerns, and try not to look for a personal attack in a post just because someone disagrees with a point of view. We could also realize that the more extreme a position is, the more likely of getting an extreme response.
Wether we know it or not I'm guessing we are all subconciously hoping that with every post we type up that someone at Paizo reads out post and is effected by our opinion.
I'll admit to it be a fully conscious effort on my part.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
So....is the OP going to buy 4e even though the Wizard's boards are a pretty gnarly place at times? Or am I unfairly disparaging the WOTC boards?
flash_cxxi: That's slander Mr Heathy.
Mr. Heathy: No it's not, slander is spoken... in print it's libel!
;)
See we can be a fun loving place sometimes too!
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32
|
Wether we know it or not I'm guessing we are all subconciously hoping that with every post we type up that someone at Paizo reads out post and is effected by our opinion.I'll admit to it be a fully conscious effort on my part.
I always get a little gush when someone from Paizo replies to one of my posts! =)
EDIT: And get your mind out of the gutter... Heathy, Aberzombie I'm looking in your general vicinity here ;)
|
So....is the OP going to buy 4e even though the Wizard's boards are a pretty gnarly place at times? Or am I unfairly disparaging the WOTC boards?flash_cxxi: That's slander Mr Heathy.
Mr. Heathy: No it's not, slander is spoken... in print it's libel!
;)
See we can be a fun loving place sometimes too!
I don't think the burden of proof would be as burdensome as proof of damages.
|
|
.....and some who do are confrontational people.
WHO SAYS I'M CONFRONTATIONAL!!!!!!!!!
|
|
I've seen what passes for mideration at enworld and Gleemax/Wotc, and would take whats here any day over whats there any day.
It may get negative here, but at least it gets DISCUSSED, unlike over there where it gets shut down.
Dont like the tone of the board? UNderstandable....wont buy products becuase of one subset of the website? I think thats kinda stupid, and a bit childish.
Are you planning on doing that because of the tone of the Wotc boards too? Because the negativity there is far worse then what I've seen here.....only difference is they agree with your opinion.
EDIT: And get your mind out of the gutter... Heathy, Aberzombie I'm looking in your general vicinity here ;)
How did you know.....?
If you'd have clicked on all the spoilers, you'd have known too! ;-)
As far as the 4E, I am firmly in the "I Don't Know" camp. I mean I know I'm going to check it out, but I cannot say "yes it is what I will be playing". I am hoping to read things in context. I don't see a problem with insulting wotc on what I see as bad choices or potential motivations. Hey they are a big company, they can handle it. I however am respectful enough not to go insult them on their boards. I don't hate the company, I have no problems buying from them. I do not as a general rule care for their forums, or some for the people who frequent it but also because I do not feel I get any better info there than here. If I have any complaints about Paizo you aren't going to see me ranting about them here. Well at least not so long as I plan to stay here. :D
(don't you hate establishing background?)
I much prefer to joke about things mostly. I also find myself. many times, in a position to have to call people on "B.S.". Some people could see threads like this as inflammatory or at least passive-aggressive. The predominant theme for many posts in this thread (and others) seems to be 'anti-4E-disagreement'. Sure some of those people get a lil rowdy or some even rude, but hey, that occurs on both sides of the tracks. There are plenty "shut up and get used to it, 4E is coming whether you like it or not, adapt or die!!" posts too. I don't judge Paizo by it's more "radical" posters anymore than I judge faiths by their extremists. To do so is absurd. Sure if you are personally attacked you have a right to complain but there's nothing wrong with some disagreement. Especially when it leads to more in depth discussion.
IMHO
|
|
The company is concerned about the hobby and its fans. Nearly three years ago, my home was destroyed by a hurricane and I lost close to half of my gaming supplies. Unsolicited, Paizo sent a care package of gaming stuff to me. Did it help to fix my house? No, but it was a small ray of sunshine and it showed me the degree of compassion they have for D&D and gamers. Do not count them out because of the thoughts of others.Wow... Paizo went up in my estimation too.
It would be a shame to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
I'm glad this is coming out...this is just one example i recall from years gone by. Paizo is the best company in the world - it's full of talented people with a passion for it's constituents.
The state of the boards is sad and it was not like this before the Dragon/Dungeon/4e changes.
It would be interesting to me to see what the average traffic was like a year ago versus now...
So let me get this straight. Either the OP is saying:
"You guys say nice things about 4e or I'm going to hurt your company, and through them your messageboards."
Or the OP is saying:
"I am posting a bribe to Paizo , via my patronage, to call for them to police up their message boards and make people stop saying what I don't want to hear."
Is that close ? Because it's what I read in post#1 of this thread.