I just can't fathom taking 90 minutes to build one NPC in 3.5, even at high level.
One of the selling points for 4th edition is fast NPC generation. Why aren't designers using the PHB 2? I've found it extremely useful not only for people at my table (my 12 year old son builds high level PCs all the time) but also for me when making NPCs.
Here's a breakdown of how long it takes me. Why does it take anyone any longer to do this?
1.) Choose Class - 1 minute: This decision is more like a part of writing the adventure, not NPC generation. I generally choose this for story or simulation.
2.) Determine Ability Scores - 1 minute. Arrays are already there.
3.) Pick Race - 3 minutes: See #1 for the selection process, but you also have to copy and paste any racial/monster abilities.
4.) Pick Skills - 3 minutes. You can cut down a LOT of time on this by putting max ranks in each skill and going down the priority list in the PHB 2.
5.) Pick Feats - 1 minute. Use the roles listed.
6.) Equipment - 2 minutes. Just copy the equipment listed for classes in the PHB 2.
7.) Spells - 2 minutes. Again, use the PHB 2 lists.
8.) Put it all together - 2 minutes. Apply all modifiers and synergies and double check the stat block.
Start to finish - 15 minutes.
There is a LOT of variety to be made from picking different monstrous races and adding class levels. And if you want two different types of fighters or duskblades or bards, the solution is variance in the existing lists in the PHB 2. Add tables for random equipment, skill and spell priorities, and create more feat lists. This is just as valuable as a complete overhaul of the system, and I would EXPECT the designers to have these available.
I just cannot imagine spending more than half an hour on ANY NPC, let alone NINETY MINUTES. What the hell is he doing in that amount of time?
And this is for a full on stat block, not "I think a +8 sounds good to hit". Am I the only one who baulks at the amount of time designers claim it takes them to build high level NPCs in 3.5?
Paizo and writers, how long does it take you?
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I just can't fathom taking 90 minutes to build one NPC in 3.5, even at high level. <snip>
And this is for a full on stat block, not "I think a +8 sounds good to hit". Am I the only one who baulks at the amount of time designers claim it takes them to build high level NPCs in 3.5?
Most of the stuff you describe, like choosing race and class, I know before I even start. I usually have a clue what sort of skills and feats and items I want the NPC to have by the time my fingers start banging keys as well, and I just have to see if he can afford it all (or has stuff left over to play with).
I spend about an hour and a half rewriting every encounter in Death in Freeport last night for a game next week.
Egil become a 1st level Archivist. The press gang became 1st level Fighters (so not a fan of NPC classes...). I got creative on the Yellow Shields and made their leader Rittoro a 2nd level Ranger (favored enemy human) who TWF with MW throwing axes, the flunkies 1st level Fighters and 'Belko' the Sorcerer I wrote up as a Battle Sorcerer, and then a Warmage, and then a Warlock, since I wasn't sure which I liked better. (Still haven't decided, but I've got all three sets of stats, and I'll pick one before the encounter, depending on how the party did during the press gang encounter.) Etc. I spent most of the time flipping open books that I'd closed, because I'd forgotten NPC wealth levels again, and it would have gone faster if my workspace had more room to leave books lying around and I could have more than one open at a time...
For a higher level character, I changed a 12th level Cultist (NPC class from that setting) into a 4th level Fighter / 6th level Cleric in about 30 minutes. It took a little extra time because some of the stuff I was planning to use didn't actually work the way I thought it did. (Swords of Wounding don't cause bleeding wounds anymore! Who knew? I wasted five minutes flipping through books looking for a monster or whatever that caused bleeding wounds before finding the Bearded Devil or whatever, and decided that was too tough and just made up my own ruling for how the weapon I was giving him worked.)
I spend most of my prep time coming up with descriptive text, dialogue and atmospheric stuff, because I don't 'create' well under pressure. I try to make sure that the ship's crew or whatever is all 'described' in my head beforehand (sometimes I write it down, sometimes I don't), so I can just rattle it out at the table.
Why aren't designers using the PHB 2?
I don't have the PHB2. If I buy it, will it seriously cut down on NPC creation time? Here are my problems:
4.) Pick Skills - 3 minutes. You can cut down a LOT of time on this by putting max ranks in each skill and going down the priority list in the PHB 2.
This will take me 10min easy. As I don't have PHB 2, I have to pour over the skills and figure out which is best.
5.) Pick Feats - 1 minute. Use the roles listed.
Again, no PHB2. But lots of books with lots of different feats. And I would say I don't know, off hand, the details of what 75% of them do. So again, 15 min, easy.
6.) Equipment - 2 minutes. Just copy the equipment listed for classes in the PHB 2.
Again, no PHB2. I'll cut it down for this and say 10 min.
7.) Spells - 2 minutes. Again, use the PHB 2 lists.
Same problem, no PHB2. Here we sit at easily 20min-30min considering all the spells in all the books I do have.
I just cannot imagine spending more than half an hour on ANY NPC, let alone NINETY MINUTES. What the hell is he doing in that amount of time?
Well, I don't take 1/2 an hour to 90 minutes because I don't have that kinda time (considering all the other prep I do) so I only use NPCs that have been statted out by others.
It's a long, tedious job.
So you're saying I should get the PHB2, eh? Looks like it's either that, or get 4e...
Greg
I write a lot for the Living Greyhawk game, which is a very technical and stat-heavy kind of writing (you have to stat up all the opponents for several different party levels).
I find it very fun, and not particularly time consuming. For example, in one encounter the party might get jumped by assassins. I decided that they'd be human fighter-types, and I would probably go with fighter/rogue assassins at high levels.
So, for the lowest-level parties, I statted up a Ftr2/Rog1. Then, for the next average party level, I added 2 more rogue levels, concentrating on the prerequisites for the assassin class. From then, I added a couple of assassin levels. Then a couple more. Then a couple more. Then a couple more. Sometimes, I saw something that made me go back and revise the lower level versions (for example, I learned I couldn't make Intelligence a dump stat, as is often the case for fighter-types, as it sets the DC for the assassin's death attack, which I wanted to be not horrible).
All told, 6 full stat blocks took me an hour and a half to two hours. And this is very technical, "show your work" type of stat blocking (I had to account for each skill point, cross-class or otherwise, all of the to-hit calculations, etc.)
I then had to do the same for a bard and his cronies, a gnome archer, some orc scouts, etc. Each time, building up a series of stat blocks.
I didn't use the PHB II at all, but that's a good tool.
I would also like to know how long it takes the Paizo authors, who probably also have to "show their work" when they submit it.
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Generic Evil Cultist 1: No time to prep heres how I do it:
AC: 20, HP: 30, Melee: +5 to hit Scimitar, dmg 1d6+2 treasure: 1-20 silver
thats it. Its a mook. I don't care if he has Power Attack, or any other number of feats. If he's meant to be mowed down, why bother? How long did that take? As fast as I can type (30-40 words per minute...I am a 2 finger typer.)
Evil Cultist Leader:
Ac: 20, HP: 40 Spells as a 10th level sorcerer treasure: a really fantastic ham and cheese on rye...you interrupted this poor saps lunch.
Awesome! Just flip the PHB to the spells page and fling as needed.
The Big Bad Evil Guy:
Why wouldn't I WANT to take 90 minute or even more to flesh out this engine of TPK? Thats part of the fun. As a DM, THIS is MY character. No player would spend less than 3 hours fleshing out his level 12 character, why wouldn't a DM do the same for his? Yeah, sure, my character is probably going to die, but thats ok, I have another wicked character idea...
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I don't really think anyone at WotC is really that daft that this scenario has ever really come up. I think they're using off-handed comments by some whiners to help the supposed selling points of 4E.
I too, use the PHB2 to great effect that way, and even before it I never spent *an hour and a half* on one stupid NPC stat block. Crikey.
-DM Jeff
Generic Evil Cultist 1: No time to prep heres how I do it:
AC: 20, HP: 30, Melee: +5 to hit Scimitar, dmg 1d6+2 treasure: 1-20 silver
thats it. Its a mook. I don't care if he has Power Attack, or any other number of feats. If he's meant to be mowed down, why bother? How long did that take? As fast as I can type (30-40 words per minute...I am a 2 finger typer.)
Evil Cultist Leader:
Ac: 20, HP: 40 Spells as a 10th level sorcerer treasure: a really fantastic ham and cheese on rye...you interrupted this poor saps lunch.
Awesome! Just flip the PHB to the spells page and fling as needed.
The Big Bad Evil Guy:
Why wouldn't I WANT to take 90 minute or even more to flesh out this engine of TPK? Thats part of the fun. As a DM, THIS is MY character. No player would spend less than 3 hours fleshing out his level 12 character, why wouldn't a DM do the same for his? Yeah, sure, my character is probably going to die, but thats ok, I have another wicked character idea...
Yep, that looks pretty familiar.
Mooks are a dime a dozen at my local mook shop.
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Ironically, although I've used classes and feats from PHB2, I never noticed the stuff that Takasi is using for fast and easy character design...
Still, in the time it takes Mike Mearls to write up a single NPC, I can write up all of the NPCs in Death in Freeport, and use unusual stuff like the Archivist from Heroes of Horror and the Urban Ranger and Battle Sorcerer variants.
On the other hand, I only have to do this once, and it will last me for a couple of weeks. I get the strong impression that Mearls runs a heck of a lot more D&D than my weekly runs, and that this doesn't just 'feel like wurk' to him, it actually *is* work, being his job and all. I'd want the game to be as quick and easy as possible, too, if it was my *job,* and I had to do it day after day. Heck, I'd probably stop playing, if I had to work at it!
Since I do it for recreation, it never 'feels like work.'
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My biggest time sink is equipment. I dither incessantly over what to equip someone with. I can easily 15-30 minutes on that if I do not control myself.
Pulling in stat modifiers for a template can get a bit time draining, but generally is not that onerous.
Cross-referencing skill modifiers can sometimes take a few more minutes.
Prestige classes and feats can sometimes become silly using when using more than just the core books, but if I intend to use such, I typically have a combination in mind the moment I sit down, so it is usually not that bad.
The other big time sink is putting in various class and creature special abilities. That can often be 200-1,000 words or more, and can easily become a major time sink. That is only required for "professional" work though, and not for home game work. I tend to do it even for my home game stuff out of habit.
Overall, depending on level and complexity, 5-40 minutes, 1 hour if I am looking to deliberately include "new material", 2 hours if I get wishy washy.
Disclosure: I do stat block review. I have significant experience using a stat block template, finding references, and cross-checking everything.
It's official, I have a DM-inferiority complex. :-(
But seriously, the main problem is that statting NPCs is work for me. I love the act of DMing, not really the prep work. And when you are married, with 4 kids, and a full-time job, you have maybe 2 hours every other week to prepare for a game. So that's why I use pre-gen NPCs. I will probably never build a NPC as quickly as those who post because I've never worked those muscles. And never will.
I have no desire to move over to 4e. I've got too much stuff (all published) that's 3.5e that I want to run. But I can easily see how making NPCs and monsters easier to prep is a selling point. If I didn't have so much invested in 3.5, this alone may get me to move on over to 4e.
Greg
Disclosure: I do stat block review. I have significant experience using a stat block template, finding references, and cross-checking everything.
In fact, Sam has reviewed the very stat blocks I was discussing above!
DM Tools. S'all I'm sayin'. :D
Or you could take the base NPC for the level you want out of the DMG, or a premade NPC from any of the dozens already published in the books and RPG sides of the DnD mini cards. I usually don't mind making them from scratch though - it really doesn't take me very long.
DM Tools. S'all I'm sayin'. :D
Commoners, just saying ;>
DM Tools. S'all I'm sayin'. :D
Already mined for a few NPCs, Lilith, thanks. (In fact, I'm kinda waiting on a request I made a month or so ago, but there's quite a back log of pending requests, so I know it may take a while.)
Greg
But seriously, the main problem is that statting NPCs is work for me. I love the act of DMing, not really the prep work. And when you are married, with 4 kids, and a full-time job, you have maybe 2 hours every other week to prepare for a game.
Word.
Most of the time, I don't even bother to create full NPCs. I know what their BAB or big spells are going to be, and just note that and some key stats and pieces of equipment down. That isn't terribly satisfying if you're going for a powergame effect with an NPC. The generic or run of the mill NPC creation is short. But let's talk about applying a couple templates, or statting up something special like a big wizard with a prestige class and some custom items. I like to savor those, and it can take a while to get it right.
I still welcome a look at the 4E rules. Mastering Iron Heroes had the seeds of the quick and dirty NPC classes in it, and I think that's the direction for 4E. Even if I don't adopt 4E (though I'll buy the three core books), I want to see how they do it.
[Pick Skills]This will take me 10min easy. As I don't have PHB 2, I have to pour over the skills and figure out which is best.
Really? I think it's quite a straightforward thing.
The part about using max ranks only is important. So instead of spending 130 skill points for your level 10 rogue NPC, you just have to pick 10 skills and max them out.
I think once you have done it a couple of times, you'll know what skills there are and what they do.
To get back to the rogue, 10 skills might sound like a lot, but since there's a lot of "groups" there, it goes quite fast, depending on what I think he'll want to accomplish:
Scouting: That's easy: Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot
Mechanic: Search, Disable Device, Open Lock
Combat: Bluff, Tumble, Use Magic Device
Acrobat: Balance, Tumble, Climb, Jump
Socialiser: Sense Motive, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Bluff (maybe Disguise)
So now you have 3 big roles (Scout, Acrobat, Socialiser) and two small ones (Mechanic and Combat). Pick two big ones and a small one. If you have points left (because your rogue has more skill points than that, or because some of the skills overlap), pick other stuff from the class list - at random if you must. Some Use Rope or Escape Artist. Decipher Script. If you have less skill points, cut lesser- used stuff like Use Magic Device or Balance.
Then, if you think you have the time, consult the skill synergy table and apply the +2s. It helps if you do a small "skill synergy card" you can pick up and quickly cross reference.
If you don't want to spend the time, just leave the skill synergy out. Not that big a deal. You're the DM, it's not cheating if you do it.
Then, all you have to do is add the ability score modifiers and you got the final score.
If you have a clear picture about what the character is supposed to be like (his general role or roles), you'll have picked out his skills in a minute. Apply the ability and synergy bonuses and do the math in another minute.
It's not hard. All it does, is some practise.
[Feats]Again, no PHB2. But lots of books with lots of different feats. And I would say I don't know, off hand, the details of what 75% of them do. So again, 15 min, easy.
There's an easy solution: Just ignore all those books. Stick to the PHB. If you want to be hardcore, use one additional book - complete warrior for fighter types, complete arcane for wizards, and so on.
Stick to basics, especially if you're building some goon who is supposed to get 5 rounds of battlemat time, tops.
Use feats along the "chains". Melee Machine? Get Power Attack, Cleave, Great Cleave, Weapon Focus, Improved Critical
Tactician? Get Combat Expertise, Improved Disarm, Improved Trip, Improved Feint.
Mover? Get Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack (Combat Expertise, Whirlwind Attack)
Some Things can be used by most characters, regardless of stats:
- Weapon Focus (for anyone who fights)
- Improved Critical (For everyone with BAB +8 - warriors can get it with their 9th-level slot, while everyone else, except wizards, can get it with their 12th-level feat slot)
- Spell Focus Evocation (for your average blaster artillery wizard) and greater Spell Focus Evocation (You can also get it for other schools if you plan to use those spells)
- Spell Penetration (for all offensive casters) and Greater Spell Penetration
- Toughness (for everyone. I suggest you use the houserule that toughness gives +1 hp per level)
- Improved Initiative
- Quick Draw
Those feats aren't only useful, they're "always active". You just add some stuff on the stat block, like their HP (by their HD), their attack bonus, their Init... Later, you don't even have to think about those options.
[Equipment]Again, no PHB2. I'll cut it down for this and say 10 min.
Again, as long as you don't go extravagant (which you shouldn't do that often: almost never for simple obstacle-shaped XP-dispensers like "front door guards", and only a couple of things for BBEGs), a lot of the money will spend itself:
- Ability boosters: Look what stats are important for that character, and get the relevant items. Do this right after you determined his ability scores. Spend about 1/4 to 1/6 of his money on those. (More in the case of arcane artillery, since they use their int/cha as a weapon)
- Armour: No fancy stuff, just (whatever armour he should be wearing +X) and maybe a shield +X. Maybe give him one interesting bonus ability on higher levels (when you can afford +3 items here), but for the most part, use pure enhancement bonuses. Add a ring of protection and/or amulet of natural armour before going above +2. Spend 1/4 of his money on it, or a bit more if the character is more defensive.
- Protection: Get an item of resistance (cloak or shirt are the usual choices) to get his saves up. Spend up to 1/4 to this
- Weapon: If the character uses a weapon (most do. The only exception are battle casters really), get him a magic weapon. If he uses two weapons, get two cheaper ones. Go mostly pure enhancement bonus (so he can hit the characters), but some occasional stuff like flaming or frost is quick and easy, too. For battle casters, you might want some wand or staff instead, but it's not necessary. Spend about 1/4 on this.
That's an average character. If you want to be more defensive, get a cheaper weapon but better protection and armour. If you want to be offensive, get a better weapon but not so good armour. Battle casters will spend their weapons fund a bit on protection but mostly on ability buffs. Monks can get some sort of monk weapon, but you can also just pay more for buff and resistance.
[Spells]Same problem, no PHB2. Here we sit at easily 20min-30min considering all the spells in all the books I do have.
You might not have access to the lists in the PHB2, but you have access to other lists: The ones in NPC writeups in all those books, in adventures, and, those you already made for those NPCs.
Write down a couple of spells per level per class, and just pick some out of that list when you do the write ups. Maybe use colour codes to mark the spells as buff, protection, damage, hex or something like that.
Well, I don't take 1/2 an hour to 90 minutes because I don't have that kinda time (considering all the other prep I do) so I only use NPCs that have been statted out by others.
Nothing wrong with that.
So you're saying I should get the PHB2, eh? Looks like it's either that, or get 4e...
Or neither. All it takes is a bit of front-up work. No one ever said the DMs job was easy, but it's not as hard as you might think.
A couple of general tips (mostly repeated from above, compiled for your convencience)
- All those books aren't mandatory. You can go a long way with just the PHB, DMG and MM. Make them your main source, and, for mooks, your only source. Reserve the more exotic stuff for main villains. They may take a bit longer than usual because of that, but they're the ones that will be remembered for ages to come - and even then, only use one or two extra books, and all the time you spend going through the collection for everything will be greatly reduced
- Stick to the basics mostly. Goes hand in hand with my point above. You don't need exotic spells and exotic items and feats and PrCs to make memorable enemies and encounters. It's what you do with the stuff you have that lets them become the stuff of legend.
- Lists, lists, lists: Compile lists of the stuff that is used most frequently. After that it's just drag and drop.
- Your Computer is your friend and wants to help you. Those lists should be in computer files, so you can literally drag and drop. Use a spreadsheet for calculations. Make some templates for stat blocks and all the calculations. It might take some time, but after that, you will be able to generate characters with just one hand (the one on the mouse) and your brain, and you'll be able to generate characters in a manner of minutes - or less!
- Don't do anything twice! You don't have to stat out 20 different guards. Use premade ones. They don't even have to be that rigid. For example: Do guards of 1st, 2nd, 4th and 8th levels.
The last point is important: You don't have to come up with hundreds of stat blocks. Come up with a few, keep them flexible, and use them all the time.
A guard, say, will be a fighter. Make stats for levels 1, 2, 4, 8. Don't do that with a fixed type of weapon, for example. Instead, let the main stat block say "weapon +8" and then do a sidebar with different weapons and their damage ratings for that character. For feats, there will be a couple of lists. One for power (power attack, cleave and so on), another for tactician (exotic weapon for spiked chain, combat expertise, improved trip, improved disarm).
Leave a couple of options, like "fast (improved initiative: +4 init)" and "tough (toughness: +8 HP)" That can be applied on the fly with hardly any effort.
A "rogue", will be similar, but here, the skill lists will differ. Have a "general" rogue, a "burglar" rogue, an "assassin" rogue.
Spellcasters: Have a couple of options (buffer, damage, hexer, conjurer) with their own spell lists (always with a bit of flexibility: "level 1 (choose 4): magic missle, shocking grasp, mage armour, ray of enfeeblement") and feats ("battle caster: spell focus (evocation)", "seducer: spell focus (enchantment)")
Those lists will probably save time in the very first session you use them, for they will probably be faster done than 4 different types of level 2 guard. And the longer the campaign goes, the more time you save.
And all the while, it seems like you have done a hell of a job doing all those different NPCs, while you actually just used some tricks and some imagination.
For the most part, NPC's should take 10-30 min, using the NPC tables in the DMG (pg 110). Pick the race, class, and level, assign ability scores (using the Elite Array or Point Buy), apply advancement bonuses and racial adjustments, pick X skills at maximum ranks, pick Y feats from the PHB (using the samples provided as a guide), give them the gear listed on the appropriate table, and then tweak using any additional rules you may be using or to fit the scenario. Spellcasters may take a bit longer, given the need to work out spells known/prepared.
The NPC BBEG deserves a bit more work and can be built "from scratch," as if designing a replacement PC. After all, this is the individual who is going to be driving the current plot. Even there, spending more than 45-60 min means you're probably either over-designing or need to focus your character concept better before starting.
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Generic Evil Cultist 1: No time to prep heres how I do it:
AC: 20, HP: 30, Melee: +5 to hit Scimitar, dmg 1d6+2 treasure: 1-20 silver
thats it. Its a mook. I don't care if he has Power Attack, or any other number of feats. If he's meant to be mowed down, why bother? How long did that take? As fast as I can type (30-40 words per minute...I am a 2 finger typer.)
Evil Cultist Leader:
Ac: 20, HP: 40 Spells as a 10th level sorcerer treasure: a really fantastic ham and cheese on rye...you interrupted this poor saps lunch.
Awesome! Just flip the PHB to the spells page and fling as needed.
The Big Bad Evil Guy:
Why wouldn't I WANT to take 90 minute or even more to flesh out this engine of TPK? Thats part of the fun. As a DM, THIS is MY character. No player would spend less than 3 hours fleshing out his level 12 character, why wouldn't a DM do the same for his? Yeah, sure, my character is probably going to die, but thats ok, I have another wicked character idea...
I'm sure you've just totally ruined the surprise of how to make NPCs in 4e. Arbitrarily assigned numbers that can do whatever you want/need them to do!
I agree entirely... if they're fodder then don't spend time. If your players wonder how the evil cultist got a 20 AC... how do you show them, though? Or are your players better behaved (or more cowed?) than that? :)
For the big boys... yes, I also take a substantial amount of time (but not because it's a tedious process - because I want the BBEG to make sense and be a challenge, perhaps a recurring one, for the party). I like your analogy about the big guys being the DM's characters.
Really? I think it's quite a straightforward thing.
Actually, I'm sure you do. I personally find orbital dynamics very straightforward, but I've seen people's eyes glaze over when I try to explain it :-)
Not that anything you said is overly complicated. And I really appreciate you taking the time to try and explain how you generate NPCs. Next time I have to generate one, I'll certainly go back to what you wrote to try to make my life easier.
No one ever said the DMs job was easy, but it's not as hard as you might think.
Well, I think it's as easy or as hard as you make it. For me, 80% of my "job" as a DM is done behind the screen. That's because I grab as much stuff done by other people to minimize the amount of "work" I have to do for the other 20%. If it had to be the other way around I wouldn't be DMing. Now, you might say "fine, give someone else a chance". The problem is, I know my group. And me willing to put 20% of the work in off-line is about 20x more than anybody else will. If I want to game, it will be me DMing. Which is just fine. I love sitting behind the DMs screen and letting the plot play out.
So again, I really, sincerely appreciate everyone's attempts to make NPC building easier for me. I will definitely look into it the next time I have the need. But this really is on the far side of fun for me, and I guess I'm one of those that think that easy NPC building will help the game.
Greg
I guess I'm one of those that think that easy NPC building will help the game.
Right there with you.
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So again, I really, sincerely appreciate everyone's attempts to make NPC building easier for me. I will definitely look into it the next time I have the need. But this really is on the far side of fun for me, and I guess I'm one of those that think that easy NPC building will help the game.
And... perhaps I'm confused. It seems that the 4e idea of making NPCs and monsters is to give them whatever you want and the mechanics need not be consulted to do so. Why isn't this possible in 3.x again? Someone above did it very well with the general mook cultist.
And... perhaps I'm confused. It seems that the 4e idea of making NPCs and monsters is to give them whatever you want and the mechanics need not be consulted to do so. Why isn't this possible in 3.x again? Someone above did it very well with the general mook cultist.
I honestly don't have a freakin' clue what 4e will do. I have heard that there is supposed to be mechanics to make NPCs easier. All I'm sayin' is that it sounds like a good idea to me. Is it actually true? How the heck do I know? I'm not a playtester. I just think that 3.5 NPC generation, as written, is cumbersome. People have given me plenty of ways to make it less cumbersome. I'm grateful.
Please don't try and turn this into another anti-4e thread. I really thought the point here was how long it takes to make NPCs in 3.5e. I'm not pro-4e, anti-3.5e, nothin. I'll be playing 3.5 for a lotta years yet. But that is because I've got a lot of money invested in it. That's all.
Greg
Honestly, I don't get it. I regularly come up with NPCs on the spur of the moment. It takes absolutely no time at all. Even when I need an NPC with stats for combat, it only takes a few seconds - I either use the NPC stats in the DMG (for character class types) or I pull something appropriate out of the monster books. "Interesting" being such a subjective thing, I find this is the best method since the NPC is by definition fitted to the situation.
Yet another reason I say DMing is a "lost art"...
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And... perhaps I'm confused. It seems that the 4e idea of making NPCs and monsters is to give them whatever you want and the mechanics need not be consulted to do so. Why isn't this possible in 3.x again? Someone above did it very well with the general mook cultist.
I honestly don't have a freakin' clue what 4e will do. I have heard that there is supposed to be mechanics to make NPCs easier. All I'm sayin' is that it sounds like a good idea to me. Is it actually true? How the heck do I know? I'm not a playtester. I just think that 3.5 NPC generation, as written, is cumbersome. People have given me plenty of ways to make it less cumbersome. I'm grateful.
Please don't try and turn this into another anti-4e thread. I really thought the point here was how long it takes to make NPCs in 3.5e. I'm not pro-4e, anti-3.5e, nothin. I'll be playing 3.5 for a lotta years yet. But that is because I've got a lot of money invested in it. That's all.
Apologies - I didn't intend to lean this to anti-4e, but your comments made it sound like the solution to all your problems would be the NPC generation method in 4e. I think you are a victim of what many people consider "too many rules" in 3.x (I like how many rules there are, but I can definitely see that some people get caught up in them).
Out of curiosity, did you ever DM before 3.x? I think that makes a difference, sometimes, where DMs who came out of the older system are more accustomed to making things up on the fly (or at least only making up exactly what was needed beforehand).
Hopefully your future 3.x DMing will be helped by the excellent points made above (I know I'm even going to pay more attention to PHBII now - I didn't realize it had all that great stuff in it until this thread popped up :).
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I just can't fathom taking 90 minutes to build one NPC in 3.5, even at high level.
One of the selling points for 4th edition is fast NPC generation. Why aren't designers using the PHB 2? I've found it extremely useful not only for people at my table (my 12 year old son builds high level PCs all the time) but also for me when making NPCs.
Here's a breakdown of how long it takes me. Why does it take anyone any longer to do this?
I agree that 90 minutes may be excessive, but I'll address a few things that slow me down. This is my perspective having recently written up 8000 words of stat blocks for a project I'm doing, so this not neccessarily my 'on the fly' technique.
1.) Choose Class - 1 minute: This decision is more like a part of writing the adventure, not NPC generation. I generally choose this for story or simulation.
This is a no brainer. I agree, the choice is usually part of the adventure design.
2.) Determine Ability Scores - 1 minute. Arrays are already there.
And then add the level adjustments and racial adjustments. Remeber to take into account feat choices that have prerequisites (Combat Expertise requires high Int, and you need it for lots of good fighter feats. You might not otherwise give a fighter a high Int)
3.) Pick Race - 3 minutes: See #1 for the selection process, but you also have to copy and paste any racial/monster abilities.
Again, picking the race is a no brainer, but often the repercussions add to the overall time.
4.) Pick Skills - 3 minutes. You can cut down a LOT of time on this by putting max ranks in each skill and going down the priority list in the PHB 2.
Of course, if the character is multiclassed, you can't neccessarily just give max ranks. And you need to double check racial modifiers, synergy modifiers, etc. Also bear in mind that if you bumped intelligence during level ups, you need to account for that.
5.) Pick Feats - 1 minute. Use the roles listed.
Yep. If you want to generate the same lame characters over and over...
6.) Equipment - 2 minutes. Just copy the equipment listed for classes in the PHB 2.
Unless of course your adventure is npc heavy and you need to calculate the overall treasure value and then distribute it appropriately, rather than hand out too much treasure.And again, as a player, I get pretty tired of every npc having the same gear.
7.) Spells - 2 minutes. Again, use the PHB 2 lists.
Again, can be done, but your adventure won't turn any heads
8.) Put it all together - 2 minutes. Apply all modifiers and synergies and double check the stat block.
If you can seriously verify all the math on a mid-high level npc in two minutes, you should get a job as an editor for WotC or Paizo. And if you are simply working from the books, even flipping to all the relevant pages will take more than 2 minutes.
Start to finish - 15 minutes.There is a LOT of variety to be made from picking different monstrous races and adding class levels. And if you want two different types of fighters or duskblades or bards, the solution is variance in the existing lists in the PHB 2. Add tables for random equipment, skill and spell priorities, and create more feat lists. This is just as valuable as a complete overhaul of the system, and I would EXPECT the designers to have these available.
I just cannot imagine spending more than half an hour on ANY NPC, let alone NINETY MINUTES. What the hell is he doing in that amount of time?
And this is for a full on stat block, not "I think a +8 sounds good to hit". Am I the only one who baulks at the amount of time designers claim it...
I think a very complex stat block could take 90 minutes, but I do agree that shouldn't be the rule. But I would say that your 15 minutes is at least as unrealistic as their 90 minutes. And while more tables for quick creation with some variety would be a huge boon to gamers, do you really think a designer is going to get much respect for writing adventures with cut and paste stat blocks? I sure don't.
Now, that may not seem to be a concern for you, but if the design process becomes simpler, that gives designers more time to do cool things with the adventure. It saves publishers time and money both in the writing and editting stages. Which means you will get better value for your money.
Out of curiosity, did you ever DM before 3.x? I think that makes a difference, sometimes, where DMs who came out of the older system are more accustomed to making things up on the fly (or at least only making up exactly what was needed beforehand).
I first started DMing when ToEE came out the first time. That's over 20 years ago. And I've never been able to "wing" rules-related stuff. I've always winged-it when it came to NPCs who don't need stats - their personalities- or making up story ideas, but I've never been comfortable making up rules-related material. I like to be consistent, and making up stuff on the fly when it's rules related is just not something I like to do.
Greg
Honestly, I don't get it. I regularly come up with NPCs on the spur of the moment.
I can come up with NPCs from a story, personality point of view. No problem.
It takes absolutely no time at all. Even when I need an NPC with stats for combat, it only takes a few seconds - I either use the NPC stats in the DMG (for character class types) or I pull something appropriate out of the monster books. "Interesting" being such a subjective thing, I find this is the best method since the NPC is by definition fitted to the situation.
Well, see here's my problem. I'm DMing a 16th level party right now. We're in the middle of Maure Castle, and I have one player who loves psionics and has a high-level cerebremancer. I want an 18th level psion to challenge him in an encounter. I've already concocted his personality on the fly, but combat is coming. (Yep, my game includes lots and lots of combat - we like it that way.) I really don't think its fair to anyone in my group for me to start whipping up high-level NPCs on the fly. I will get rules wrong, I will give him the wrong number of power points, and if I TPK the party, they are going to be seriously pissed at me. I really want to be fair.
Yet another reason I say DMing is a "lost art"...
That's not my problem. My problem is that with 3.5 there's more math to the art. I got the art part of it down, no problem. But I just don't have time for the math. (For the record, I can do math - I have 2 physics degrees - but I don't want to spend lots of time on it.)
Now, here comes the disclaimer: I love 3.5. It's a great rules set. I love the way PC can build a character from scratch using class abilities, skils, feats, prestige classes, etc.
I just think it bogs down the DM a bit...
Greg
edit: I notice in my last two posts I'm starting to repeat myself reply to different people. My apologies...
It can be done Greg. I am not saying you should have to do it... But it is possible to "stat up" an 18th level psion on the fly. I doubt it would hold up to much scrutiny, but your NPC's stats shouldn't fall into the players hands anyway.
Now, asking you to enjoy doing it is another matter entirely.
I just can't fathom taking 90 minutes to build one NPC in 3.5, even at high level.
I use E-Tools, formerly available from Code Monkey Publishing before WOTC cut their license. You might be able to... find it... around online.
Any PC, NPC, or Monster (or combination thereof), almost any level, 1-10 minutes. Longer if you want to customize/optimize, but that's all it ever *requires*.
I spent about 15 minutes before my last homebrew creating and printing out all the monsters and PCs needed for the last game (about 6-8 total I think).
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Call me crazy, but the quote said "high-level NPC", right? To me, that's not "faceless 4th (or even 8th) level mook. That's 17th level Archmage; or spellweaver ftr1/wiz7/eldritch knight10 campaign ending boss with 3 unique spells, and items that will make your PCs quiver with fear and anticipation. These will take time (often, a long time) to build.
If we can get Paizo's assorted writers' attention, this is a good
kind of thing.
...lots of good stuff...
Ah. Now I have a better understanding. I often use this method in such cases if I don't have time to do a regular stat block (which is practically all the time): Using the maxim that the average combat lasts 5 rounds and that a tough one lasts 7-8 rounds, I first come up with a clever hook (usually a combination of tactical moves, a spell, or something similar). Then I run the combat as normal, except that I don't bother with hit points, PSPs, and the like - if the players roll high they hit and if they roll low they don't. If they roll really well they achieve a spectacular result, and if they roll abysmally I assign appropriate results. Of course, I describe the results of every character's actions in graphic detail. At the end of 5 rounds (or 7, if it's a tough fight) I simply decide what I want to happen - either the NPC dies, surrenders, or escapes, depending on the needs of the storyline and the actions of the players.
Of course I don't recommend this quick-and-dirty method for those who don't have much experience, for those whose players require a high level of adherence to the rules, or for those writing for publication. In fact, when I have the time I like to put more effort into it myself. But even then I don't waste lots of time poring over every detail. I simply construct a standard NPC with standard equipment - all drawn from the various shortcuts suggested by the rulebooks - then I alter a few key details to make things more interesting. Perhaps I give the NPC an interesting magic item or spell, an interesting combination of feats, or something like that. Even when writing for publication one's NPCs need not stray too far from the standard. One or two "hookish" elements is usually good enough. The real key to interesting NPCs lies in creating an interesting scenario and an interesting personality. Beyond that the artists have more to do with it than the designer does - as I'm sure the Paizo staff or any other publishing team can attest.
And FWIW, I agree that 3.x is written in such a way as to encourage one to get bogged down in the rules. It's tragic, but there are ways to avoid most of the pitfalls unless you're writing for publication. At least, that's been my experience.
My players are optimizers, and if I take some generic npc I might as well just give away XP. D&D has this idea that every fight other than boss fights should be easy. I don't beleive in giving away XP. I do throw in the occasional easy fight, but most of the time if they have an easy fight it is because I made a tactical error, or they outsmarted me. I seriously doubt making an NPC that can challenge PC will be doable 4 years from now., however if I switch to 4e I will take advantage of it while it last.
...I've always winged-it when it came to NPCs who don't need stats - their personalities- or making up story ideas...
Greg
And that my friend is the ART of DMing.
I don't have Greg's problem, because I like statting up NPCs. But, it is time consuming. I tailor my NPCs very specifically and generally only stat up important NPCs to the story - others, I steal from books, adventures, etc...
The best advice I can give DMs with problems statting out NPCs is to STEAL STEAL STEAL! Take NPCs from other books and adventures and modify them slightly to suit your needs. Also, keep a file of "generic" NPCs stats, like guards and such, on hand. If you use a laptop, a file will work, or just print it out for reference and throw it in a binder. :)
Try to get your hands on some .pdf files of D&D books and copy and paste stat blocks into word files. (This will become a SUPREME BLESSING when 4th Edition comes out and every book has a nice searchable .pdf file attached with it).
Good luck.
I've made a lot of stat blocks of varying levels, most in the low- to mid-range, but some as high as 25th-level, and I have to say that depending on the level that it can routinely take half an hour, or several hours depending on what I am building: spellcasters are more complicated. Epic spellcasters are so, sooo much worse.
The simplest part is the race, class, and skills. Every time I pick skills I just take the Int mod plus skill points and max out that many skills, choosing the ones that make the most sense for why I am building the NPC. For example, an assassin requires Hide, Move Silently, and Tumble. Thats generally not TOO complicated, and sometimes I forgo spending all the skills if I can get all the ones that I really need.
Feats are somewhat harder, since there are a so many. The bad part is reading them all to find out which ones really work well with the character, so I generally end up defaulting to a set of feats that I know a specific class would want.
Equipment is the worst, especially if you do it "old school" where you actually spend the exact gp for a NPC level. Magic Item Compendium expedited the process somewhat, but there is still the matter of reading through a bunch of magic items to find out what they do, since a lot of them are new.
Finally, spells. For my own sanity I try to limit my choices to the book that the class is in, as well as Spell Compendium if relevant. Often, I fill out the highest level if the NPC is built for combat, and leave it at that: at 12th-level I dont care what his 0-level spells are.
Building NPC blocks can be fun, sometimes. Sometimes its just annoying and time-consuming, especially if you try to make them look legit. I've long since stopped doing it that way, since the players wont see my blocks. I think that having monsters function exactly like PCs is bad because a DM has to create and manage many more things than what a player does (ie, one), so having a more simplistic system is better.
Even if some experienced DMs might be able to create NPCs relatively quickly, I think that 4th Edition will make things easier and faster for everyone without sacrificing the diversity or depth of a NPC.