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I seem to recall (though possibly wrongly) that when 3e came out, the core classes were advertised as able to fill every niche of character type. Through feats, skill choice, multi-classing, and prestige classes, you could build any character of your heart's desire. In turn, with 3.5, this seemed to be a continuing theme, especially where skills were revised and down the road, feats were created to allow monks and paladins to even stretch out beyond their confines.
Again, my recollection may be wrong. But I don't think it is. (Psionics aside!)
Perhaps this sort of concept was lost with 3.5. IIRC, it was with 3.5 that we began to see the emergence of new classes - particulary through the core class series. And then, we were hit with the torrential rainfall of prestige classes and feats ... too many for me to keep track of.
But now we come to 4e. Streamlined. Sweet. Simple(r). But there is already talk of new core books coming out each year, with new classes, and most likely, new feats.
In another world, d20 Modern and Star Wars Saga Edition have managed to survive with a basic outline approach to characters, offering talent trees, feats, and prestige (or advanced) classes to build your character beyond the "core" make-up should you so choose.
My concern ... and one of the forces pushing me away from 4e ... is that it isn't being prepared as a trilogy of books to be all that is needed. New core books will be rolling out ... so, we will be expected to keep up with them. It is no longer a contained game system ... or is it?
What will happen with the SRD? Will this expand as new core books are released annually? Will this allow 3rd party OGL game producers to keep up with WotC's growth ... or will they be stuck with what comes out in a few months?
In the end, I'm just wary that we aren't being sold on a revision, but an entirely rebuilt system. And we aren't being sold on core classes ... but only some core classes ... as if WotC is already recognizing that it does them no justice to release in May a self-contained gaming system.
I hope 4e takes off and flies. I just don't know if it's a plane ride I want to take.
Well, d20 Modern and SWSE are less popular than D&D, so it is probably not as profitable for WoTC to create a large number of supplements.
My impression is that what is "core" is being used differently in 4e than it was in 3.x. In 3e, core was very specific and meant the three main rule books only, but in 4e core refers to non-campaign specific books (the FRCS would not be considered a core supplement, but a PHBII would be). You still can play with only the three main books, but additional supplements such as the 3.5e Complete supplements would be part of the "core" game. Elements in the FRCS would be officially restricted to the FR, but elements in the core books would be officially usable in the core books, FR books, and Eberron books.
It is also my understanding that additional core materials will be entered into the SRD. The 4e SRD is a reference document not a duplication of the rules, so in theory, it should be easier to add information to the SRD (monster x is 4e OGL, for monster x, see page 23 of MMII).
So far with every edition we seem to have different designers. Everybody thinks their ideas are better than the last guys. They see different options, so they go there and make their claims. When 5th edition rolls around with new designers, they will say the same thing. Everyone is going to feel they can make improvements to the game regardless of what they are. What are improvements to one person may not be to another.
For example, say in "X" amount of years, new designers say "Lets go back to the basics of what the game was all about". Some players will say great, others will say that isn't what it was about, others will say previous ideas sucked, others will say you ruined my game there was nothing wrong with it in the first place.
Alas, there seems to be some subjectivity in physics, too, these days--namely quantum mechanics.
I seem to recall (though possibly wrongly) that when 3e came out, the core classes were advertised as able to fill every niche of character type. Through feats, skill choice, multi-classing, and prestige classes, you could build any character of your heart's desire. In turn, with 3.5, this seemed to be a continuing theme, especially where skills were revised and down the road, feats were created to allow monks and paladins to even stretch out beyond their confines.
This has always been how I approach D&D. All you need is the 3 core books and a setting and you can play anything. All the other stuff is great for a specific setting, but none are required by the setting. So if you want to run Thieves World-like setting with Incarnum as well. You can do that. Or if you want to run Wildernes of High Fantasy, but replace arcane spells with dragon magic and add in shadow magic, psionics and truename magic, that's all good too. But if you are a poor gamer and all you have is the core 3 and a world of imagination, you don't NEED a single other book.
My concern ... and one of the forces pushing me away from 4e ... is that it isn't being prepared as a trilogy of books to be all that is needed. New core books will be rolling out ... so, we will be expected to keep up with them. It is no longer a contained game system ... or is it?
I don't believe it will be. And thank you. You helped me find the words to really express one of my bigger problems with 4E. I WANT to feel like I am buying said book because I WANT the book, not because I am EXPECTED to buy the book. I don't like to feel like I am a market and I am expected to buy everything they pump out. I really don't get that feeling with 4E. It feels like they've organized the game in such a way so that I HAVE to keep buying books and subscribe to the DI and who knows what else just to be able to play in a setting that I want, in a world I can recognize and a game I love.
What will happen with the SRD? Will this expand as new core books are released annually?
They've already said that more stuff will be added to the SRD as time goes on. With the SRD being a list of what is and isn't OGL in the books, it SHOULD be easier for WotC to update the SRD regularly and they'll get around to it more quickly.
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I seem to recall (though possibly wrongly) that when 3e came out, the core classes were advertised as able to fill every niche of character type. Through feats, skill choice, multi-classing, and prestige classes, you could build any character of your heart's desire. In turn, with 3.5, this seemed to be a continuing theme, especially where skills were revised and down the road, feats were created to allow monks and paladins to even stretch out beyond their confines.
Again, my recollection may be wrong. But I don't think it is. (Psionics aside!)
Perhaps this sort of concept was lost with 3.5. IIRC, it was with 3.5 that we began to see the emergence of new classes - particulary through the core class series. And then, we were hit with the torrential rainfall of prestige classes and feats ... too many for me to keep track of.
I'm not sure I'm anywhere near familiar enough with WotC's plans to discuss the rest of your post, but Sword and Fist appeared on shelves within months of the 3rd Edition release. New base classes may have been somewhat more rare, but the plan was always to let the skies open up and rain down PrCs and feats upon us. In that regard, nothing whatsoever has changed.
...the plan was always to let the skies open up and rain down PrCs and feats upon us. In that regard, nothing whatsoever has changed.
No, now they're being more obvious about it. :)
I'm not sure I'm anywhere near familiar enough with WotC's plans to discuss the rest of your post, but Sword and Fist appeared on shelves within months of the 3rd Edition release. New base classes may have been somewhat more rare, but the plan was always to let the skies open up and rain down PrCs and feats upon us. In that regard, nothing whatsoever has changed.
I think Saurstalk's point wasn't that they didn't plan on releasing more feats, PrCs, and the like, but that you could more or less make any archetype that you were going for, but later on some PrCs might make these archetypes a little easier to emulate.
If you wanted to make a bladesinger from 2nd edition before the official PrC came out, you could make a fighter/wizard with quicken spell to boost his speed and stats while he was fighting, for example.
Going into 4th, its not going to be hard to emulate various kits or PrCs from previous editions, its going to be hard to emulate core concepts like the druid.
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I think Saurstalk's point wasn't that they didn't plan on releasing more feats, PrCs, and the like, but that you could more or less make any archetype that you were going for, but later on some PrCs might make these archetypes a little easier to emulate.
If you wanted to make a bladesinger from 2nd edition before the official PrC came out, you could make a fighter/wizard with quicken spell to boost his speed and stats while he was fighting, for example.
Going into 4th, its not going to be hard to emulate various kits or PrCs from previous editions, its going to be hard to emulate core concepts like the druid.
Thanks. Yes, you're right. PrCs came out as means to further specialize your character. What's interesting is that many PrC traits could have easily been emulated with Talent Trees instead. (But that's a topic unto itself.)
Still, maybe Cleric will be broad enough and IF there are talent trees, a druid could actually be emulated.
What remains unclear to me is whether there will be talent trees or not. I understand that there will be "powers" and of course, feats. But Talent Trees? I sure hope so. If not .. that's another coffin nail in my converting to 4e.
It seems to me to be in WotC best interest not to make D&D self-contained. They need to find a way to get more people to purchase each new supplement. If you only need three books, or even just one, then their sales plummet as only small niche markets buy up any particular supplement. If, however, you add new content that more people will want then you can increase sales.
It seems to me that D&D was never a toolkit and was never meant to be one. As long as a large enough market could be enticed with the latest and greatest list of classes/feats/magic items/prestige classes/spells WotC could continue to milk its customers.