Perhaps I've been reading to much Lovecraft lately, but my campaign has drifted into Cthulu-esque areas already and my FLGS has an awesome colossal Cthulu mini (mini is hardly the word for a foot and a half tall monstrosity). So I'm thinking of taking my STAP in a completely different direction. We're currently on HTBM, and I've dropped a couple of Demogorgon hints (basically foreshadowing the Lemorian Golem). My plan is to really play up the demogorgon connection so that the players are ready to take out a demon lord. However, before they start to make alliances with other demon lords, I'll subtly encourage them to take on demogorgon himself. Once they try, demogorgon will basically say, "fools! Our enemy is not from this reality!" My hope is that teaming up with demons will seem like a more logical (and maybe Good) choice when the PCs are presented with something truly terrifying like Cthulu. After all, the text from the alienist prc in the Complete Arcane says:
Places far worse than Hell exist in the multiverse, and even demons have more in common with characters than the entities that exist outside what is known, a mere glimpse of which can drive the sanity from someone's mind.
My homebrewed world has many Lovecraftian elements and the PCs have already encountered some wacky far realms stuff (with one losing his mind completely).
Does anyone have any suggestions for how to integrate this (pretty large) change? I'despecially lve to hear from James Jacobs, architect of the STAP and big Lovecraft fan.
Cheers,
El Skootro
Creative Director
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Cthulhu is cool. He can certainly become a BBEG, but he's a tough cookie. Certainly tougher than Demogorgon. He also works a bit differently than Demogorgon—through the dreams of artists, cultists, and the deep ones.
You could certainly substitute him for Demogorgon as the BBEG, but that'd mean reworking most of the last few adventures pretty substantially, since R'lyeh and Gaping Maw are pretty different locations.
UNLESS.
Perhaps instead of sending the PCs into Wat Dagon, the climax of the adventure actually sends them to R'lyeh? Either at the bottom of the sea in your game world, or adrift somewhere in the multiverse—perhaps a projection of R'lyeh into Shadowsea, the layer of the Abyss just "below" Gaping Maw? R'lyeh certainly seems to me to be a great place to hide the Master Shadow Pearl, and this way Wat Dagon can become a single ruin in R'lyeh that the PCs go to after navigating the city itself after traveling there from Gaping Maw. In this scenario, Demogorgon's defeat could trigger Cthulhu's temporary awakening somehow, and you can drop down your Cthulhu "mini" as a FINAL boss. One, I suggest, the PCs be encouraged to run from rather than fight.
It'd be interesting if Cthulhu ended up becoming the new Prince of Demons. That kind of development's a bit too cross-genre for my tastes, but it could work anyway...
Destroy Cthulhu?
It's an impossible task. How do you kill that which is not flesh? How do you destroy something which should not exist!
Perhaps one day Cthulhu the stars will align and dread Cthulhu will walk the Oerth . . . but best ye pray that such a day never comes for even the gods themselves would quake as the great old one rose from the sea. Pray that this day never comes for the dread Cthulhu heralds the end of man!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
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I like Nyarlathotep better for this gig; on account of he's known to have a gaxtenn jillion thousand fitty tree avatars of varying pooer levels; then hell, Demogorgon's probably just a freakin avatar of Nyarlathotep, like the Tyrannosaurus rex with one eye and 5,000 acid dripping tentacles for a head, and the pirate with a proboscis that erupts out of his pulpy head and sucks out people's lungs, and the....
Please excuse her . . . she's not been well lately.Destroy Cthulhu?
It's an impossible task. How do you kill that which is not flesh? How do you destroy something which should not exist!
Perhaps one day Cthulhu the stars will align and dread Cthulhu will walk the Oerth . . . but best ye pray that such a day never comes for even the gods themselves would quake as the great old one rose from the sea. Pray that this day never comes for the dread Cthulhu heralds the end of man!
Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn
LOL!!!
Personally I like this idea. I may do it myself but substituting Dagon. I have to admit this--in this company I dare to say that I actually have never really liked Demogorgon as a creation. I have difficulty taking him seriously. I have trouble not seeing him as a weird looking two headed baboon with tentacles. It's like Yeenoghu--I will always in my head see that old limp wristed picture of him from the old Monster Manual. Dagon on the other hand has always freaked me out.
My pcs anyway already believe they will encounter some cult of Dagon--their recent brush with the Mother of All makes them believe it. They found (in the prelude in Scuttlecove tangling with the original owners of Porphyry House) Demogorgon strange and a non-sequiteur. Dagon genuinely creeps them out.
I'm using Cthulhu as Obox-Ob, or at least an aspect of him. One of the PCs is an aspiring Alienist, so I will have wicked fun with this.
Cthulhu is cool. He can certainly become a BBEG, but he's a tough cookie. Certainly tougher than Demogorgon. He also works a bit differently than Demogorgon—through the dreams of artists, cultists, and the deep ones.
You could certainly substitute him for Demogorgon as the BBEG, but that'd mean reworking most of the last few adventures pretty substantially, since R'lyeh and Gaping Maw are pretty different locations.
UNLESS.
Perhaps instead of sending the PCs into Wat Dagon, the climax of the adventure actually sends them to R'lyeh? Either at the bottom of the sea in your game world, or adrift somewhere in the multiverse—perhaps a projection of R'lyeh into Shadowsea, the layer of the Abyss just "below" Gaping Maw? R'lyeh certainly seems to me to be a great place to hide the Master Shadow Pearl, and this way Wat Dagon can become a single ruin in R'lyeh that the PCs go to after navigating the city itself after traveling there from Gaping Maw. In this scenario, Demogorgon's defeat could trigger Cthulhu's temporary awakening somehow, and you can drop down your Cthulhu "mini" as a FINAL boss. One, I suggest, the PCs be encouraged to run from rather than fight.
It'd be interesting if Cthulhu ended up becoming the new Prince of Demons. That kind of development's a bit too cross-genre for my tastes, but it could work anyway...
Awesome. Thanks for the help James. Right now I'm still in the idea stage as to how to make this happen, but I'm going to pick up the new Elder Evils book today to see how Cthulhu or other Cthulhu Mythos baddies may work out. If the campaign actually get's that far (flameouts are always a danger with busy people), I'll make sure to let people know how I'm handling it. For now I'm just excited about the Isle of Dread.
El Skootro
I saw it. It's color, so I really think it's plastic prepainted. It's about a foot tall i think.
It's part of the HorrorClix line from WizKids. They say it's almost 16" at the wings, but in person it's definitely breathtaking.
El Skootro
Personally I like this idea. I may do it myself but substituting Dagon. I have to admit this--in this company I dare to say that I actually have never really liked Demogorgon as a creation. I have difficulty taking him seriously. I have trouble not seeing him as a weird looking two headed baboon with tentacles. It's like Yeenoghu--I will always in my head see that old limp wristed picture of him from the old Monster Manual. Dagon on the other hand has always freaked me out.
My pcs anyway already believe they will encounter some cult of Dagon--their recent brush with the Mother of All makes them believe it. They found (in the prelude in Scuttlecove tangling with the original owners of Porphyry House) Demogorgon strange and a non-sequiteur. Dagon genuinely creeps them out.
I have got to agree on this - Demogorgon made my juvenile feel slughtly ashamed at my hobby when I saw him in AD&D's monster manual ( So this was the ultimate prince of evil ? he looks more like something from the Island of Dr. Moureau...), and he is still on my "rather ludicurous" list.
On the other hand - that just makes him so nice as the BBEG, since there has been little if anything ever done with him (say, in comparison to G'razzt or Orcus ), while everyone (at the table, at least ) knows off him.
I plan to significantly "up" his image with weird shape-shifting and-morphing effects to make him more otherworldly and "essentially chaotic".
Then again, Dagon would have been just about been the top-choice as an antagonist..... too bad, being comitted to Big D by now..
Demogorgon made my juvenile feel slughtly ashamed at my hobby when I saw him in AD&D's monster manual ( So this was the ultimate prince of evil ? he looks more like something from the Island of Dr. Moureau...), and he is still on my "rather ludicurous" list.
Sure, he was kind of geeky in the 1st ed. Monster Manual, but the art in the Fiendish Codex is bad-ass.
Cthulhu sure could be. Hopefully you have or will have the D20 Cthulhu book. I sleep with it under my pillow! There are numerous beings that could also go in this spot, from Cthulhu mythos or Demons themselves. Dagon is nice, and Dagon is an example of a Cthulhu mythos made demon lord. It would be interesting since you don't particularly like Demogorgon, to have the PCs/Cthulhu be involved (not as a team, of course) in taking Demogorgon down for the count, which would create a huge amount of possibilities both in the Abyss and the Prime.
Demogorgon made my juvenile feel slughtly ashamed at my hobby when I saw him in AD&D's monster manual ( So this was the ultimate prince of evil ? he looks more like something from the Island of Dr. Moureau...), and he is still on my "rather ludicurous" list.Sure, he was kind of geeky in the 1st ed. Monster Manual, but the art in the Fiendish Codex is bad-ass.
And again I find myself disagreeing on the exact mileage with you, Sben *salute*, which simply shows that tastes and muses differ.
The one and only artwork of Demogorgon I found inspiring and rather positively influential is the cover of Dungeon #150, by WAR. But in the self-same issue, we have the introductory piece of artwork at the start of the final installment which justmakes me wince..... really badly. Demogorgon just does not project any real menace, he usually looks more like the pitiably victim of a badly assembled genome-experiment....
Sure, [Demogorgon] was kind of geeky in the 1st ed. Monster Manual, but the art in the Fiendish Codex is bad-ass.And again I find myself disagreeing on the exact mileage with you, Sben *salute*, which simply shows that tastes and muses differ.
But ... but I made an absolute declaration of bad-assness! You can't disagree with that!
In all seriousness, of course, fair enough! *salute* I do understand your dislike.
The Cthulu mini is pre-painted plastic.
He unfortunatly has one of those clicky-bases that Wizkids uses.
He is for the Horrorclix game. He was a convention exclusive if I remember correctly so he is quite expensive.
The Cthulu mini is pre-painted plastic.
He unfortunatly has one of those clicky-bases that Wizkids uses.
He is for the Horrorclix game. He was a convention exclusive if I remember correctly so he is quite expensive.
Yeah. I know all of that. It's worth it.
El Skootro
Try this for size. .
A lot cheaper than heroclix.
So my thought now is that when the first shadow pearl was broken, it roused Cthulhu from his slumber.
Demogorgon's motivations remain the same. He wants to set off the shadow pearls to increase his power. The production of the shadow pearls will all be done by Cthulhu worshippers, however (the area under the Isle of Dread is already pretty ripe for this). The party discovers this and freaks out a little bit. They realize what Demogorgon is planning, but they don't know whether or not Demogorgon knows he's being used to awaken Cthulhu (he doesn't). Instead of meeting up with Igglwv, the party has to track down a Far Realms expert (It just so happens that I have a candidate: a pc from a previous campaign) who explains that the only way to save reality is to stop the production of the shadow pearls. The party then proceeds to build an alliance to stop Demogorgon as before (with the added incentive that aligning with demons may seem less of a stretch when the alternative is allowing Cthulhu to rise).
This way, the party can also try to convince Demogorgon how dangerous his plan is (he may not listen or even care) via diplomatic means.
Fortunately, the player for my bard character is out of the country for a month or so, so the bard has just gone unconcious and is having some weird dreams.
Thoughts?
El Skootro
If you are considering something like this I suggest tracking down a copy of the now oop Call of Cthulhu d20. Monte Cook was nice enough to bless us with a Cthulhu D&D article in the appendix that actually stats out all the gods, complete with CRs. I remeber most of the gods were up over CR 40, however. It was still fun to flip through it and waggle it menacingly at my players.
Of course, in true Lovecraftian fashion it's impossible to actually kill an Old One. All a mortal can do when faced against such a creature, regardless of level, is writhe around and die painfully. Cthulhu was fought in one of the stories but was not killed only driven back to sleep and that was only by having a steamliner driven through his head.
**EDIT**
I went and looked it up and Cthulhu is CR 37. Not a single Great Old One is below CR 30. Azathoth, appropriately, is CR 50.
Can Cthulu become the BBEG?
Cthulhu can do anything -- he's a Great Old One. Your players can also die horribly :P
Of course, in true Lovecraftian fashion it's impossible to actually kill an Old One. All a mortal can do when faced against such a creature, regardless of level, is writhe around and die painfully. Cthulhu was fought in one of the stories but was not killed only driven back to sleep and that was only by having a steamliner driven through his head.
Yeah, that's why I'm thinking of having the PCs conspire with the outer planes folks. It makes a lot more sense to me to have the PCs join up with demons if their common enemy is something so alien. If it works out to stage the fight with Cthulhu, it will be with Demogorgon fighting alongside the PCs as an uber-powerful NPC. The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of Demogorgon as a red herring/potential ally.
El Skootro
This is a fascinating direction to take the Savage Tide. Personally, I would be very stingy with my foreshadowing of Cthulu's connection during the events of the campaign, enough to ensure it makes sense, and have the final battle with Demo be the reveal for the involvement of Dagon and eventually Cthulu as the start of the Epic Campaign.
Cheers!
Of course, in true Lovecraftian fashion it's impossible to actually kill an Old One. All a mortal can do when faced against such a creature, regardless of level, is writhe around and die painfully. Cthulhu was fought in one of the stories but was not killed only driven back to sleep and that was only by having a steamliner driven through his head.
I think if your players get to level 30, I'd be fair and let them play with their toys.... otherwise they just get upset. In the story, there' probably not one person alive in Earth above level 5... 30th level PCs are plane-shaking menaces, let 'em have their fun. He's already going to have incredible regeneration, DR /epic and good and evil and made of twinkies and cold iron, so if they manage to bump him off, let him call it a day.
Then his boss gets upset and nukes Oerth, or Abeir-toril or whatever they're calling it now. Then you can kick-start "Amoeba d20" as your civilization struggles to rebuild itself to the molecular level.
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My homebrewed world has many Lovecraftian elements and the PCs have already encountered some wacky far realms stuff (with one losing his mind completely).
Does anyone have any suggestions for how to integrate this (pretty large) change? I'despecially lve to hear from James Jacobs, architect of the STAP and big Lovecraft fan.
Cheers,
El Skootro
It's a nice idea (and an interesting, in a bit threathening, task for a DM).
I humbly suggest to use the rules from Darkness & Dread (Fantasy Flight Games, Legends&Lairs series of books) to add a otherworldly terror factor for cthlhu-eques creatures, such as demons and aboleths.
Well, we've had a pretty tough time playing since the New Year, but on Monday night we managed a pretty good sized session, so I figured I'd give an update here about my attempts to subtly introduce You-Know-Who into the STAP:
Although the characters should have reached the Isle of Dread, they keep returning to Ft. Blackwell and its environs (which could derail the entire AP, but that's a different story...). So I've been whipping out modules from my library to modify and throw at them. The most recent one was Curse of the Emerald Cobra, one of the Dungeon Crawl Classics. Reports on the game can be found here and here.
Essentially, there are three main antagonist groups trying to thwart the party's plans: The Brotherhood of the Hopping Frog (the name results from my misremembering the slaad-worshippers in Ft Blackwell), a Cthulhu worshipping sect who consider the slaad to be the best and most mutable creatures to use in their experiments to create an army of mini-Cthulhus; the Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign (my campaign world has grown organically from the Freeport trilogy, so a lot of the mythos of that setting is present) who worship the Unspeakable One, who may or may not be Cthulhu; and the Crimson Fleet, pretty much unchanged from the AP.
The Brotherhood of the Hopping Frog (BHF), are actually making the black pearls for the Crimson Fleet, but the Brotherhood of the Yellow Sign (BYS) are acting as middlemen.
Each organization has its own motivations, but the BHF are trying to raise Cthulhu by unleashing half-slaad creatures that drive people crazy on the world and by helping the Savage Tide to erupt. The BYS want to unleash the Savage Tide to rouse their god (who, again, may or may not be Cthulhu), and the Crimson Fleet want the Savage Tide to happen to unite Demogorgon's two personalities.
What I figure is that Demogorgon has no idea that the Savage Tide may have unintended consequences. I'm basically going to cut out the Wells of Dread adventure and have the PCs go after Demogorgon at that point. They'll get their butts kicked, and he'll let them know who their true enemy is. At that point, they'll start to round up extra-planar allies (including Demogorgon himself) and they'll try and take on Cthulhu. My plan is to give each player the stats for an ally and have them play two characters: the regular PC and the extraplanar ally.
If Cthulhu is defeated (and I know that's a BIG if), the party will still have to deal with Demogorgon and his plans.
Anybody think that'll work? Is it too anti-climactic to fight Cthulhu and then go after Demogorgon? I was hoping for a Mexican stand-off feel: after the initial victory, the party looks around and sees that they're surrounded by demon lords, and with their common enemy gone, they don't have any reason not to try and kill each other.
El Skootro
It'd be interesting if Cthulhu ended up becoming the new Prince of Demons. That kind of development's a bit too cross-genre for my tastes, but it could work anyway...
Says the guy who wrote the Dagon article, which essentially has Innsmouth in it. :)
Speaking of which, that big Andrew Hou Dagon art; is that online somewhere? How about the Dungeon #150 WAR art of Demogorgon?