RPG Superstar 2008 Top 8
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Hear me out please. I have a few sources for my remarks, and remembrances for other so if you know of any confirming or refuting sources please add them.
Wizards of the Coast will kill 3.x when they release 4th Edition next year. Publishers such as Goodman Games who've already announced their choice to move on to 4th Edition, or Necromancer Games who will also advance but it seems that now they will keep 3.x on the table, or Paizo who claims to be undecided will truly have no option but to upgrade to 4th or change systems entirely.
I have seen on many posts here, on WOTC forums, ENworld and elsewhere (sources please) that WOTC cannot revoke the OGL. If true, fine. WOTC can still kill 3.x! Today when searching for the System Reference Document (SRD) you can only get or use the 3.5 revision of the d20SRD. Thats the only official one supplied by WOTC. What happened to the original SRD? 3rd Edition? It was replaced by the 3.5 d20SRD. 4th Edition is still supposed to be d20, kind of a d20 advanced is my understanding. I've heard that they should be releasing an SRD for 4th Edition to allow other publishers to produce competing products. (Sources Please) Why would they not, replace the 3.5 d20SRD with the 4th Edition SRD? OGL remains in place, they just changed what content could be used within it is all. Technically, the SRD is still WOTC property which they have allowed everyone to use.
This occurred to me as a nightmare while working on my 2nd Round submission for the RPG Superstar contest. In my dream, WOTC released the new SRD during the competition, and as the current two rounds have required the use of only SRD material most of us contestants had to start from scratch learning new rules.
How is my logic in this? Or are we just fooling ourselves, those of us who will keep playing 3.x Edition and want continued support?
http://www.opengamingfoundation.org/srd.html
it's not a fantasic version, but it is (from what i can tell) the 3rd edition SRD. And, even if they do replace the old 3.5 SRD, the sheer number of places it's been copied on the net would make it hard to get rid of. of all the illegal things being copied and passed around the net, i doubt that someone is going to start hunting down unlicenced copies of the SRD. and as long as people keep the demand, someone will be out there to keep up the supply. so..(inspirational music) "Doon't stop.. Believin....)
Don't worry! Paizo would not discuss remaining with 3.5 if it wasn't possible, legally. Furthermore no company would be willing to make products for a system, if the licence could be revoked arbitrarily. AFAIK, its different for products displaying the d20 logo, as these companies have a direct contract with WotC. Of course WotC is not obliged to provide any older versions of the SRD on the Web.
How is my logic in this?
Completely wrong.
Open Game Content (which the SRD is) that has been released under the OGL (which the SRD has been) cannot be revoked. It's perfectly legal for anyone to create a website or publish a book with either the 3.0 or the 3.5 SRD. Any company producing OGC stuff now can merrily continue producing OGC stuff in the future.
I'm sure that there will be 2-3 publishers who do some 3.5 content for the niche market that remains, just like there are some people doing stuff for OSRIC, because the OGL allows that. There might even be more than 2-3 in the initial shake-out period.
The 3.0 SRD is still available as well, but I don't see anyone producing 3.0 content even after all the complaining about 3.5. Is there anyone other than something Joe Bob makes and puts up on RPGNow? So, I would look at that and you can see the likely fate of the 3.5 market.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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The 3.0 SRD is still available as well, but I don't see anyone producing 3.0 content even after all the complaining about 3.5.
Hi, Wayne. You make some good points.
But 3.0 and 3.5 are almost completely transparent to one another. Yes, from a designer point of view, there are a ton of little things: making sure that lawful weapons are now axiomatic, and so on, but I can play my 3rd Edition adventures in 3.5 without a bump. I'm not sure I'd want to try running 3.5 adventures under 3rd Edition rules (I think I'd have a hard time retrofitting my brain enough to play 3.0, quite frankly) but I'd bet that it wouldn't be too difficult.
in other words, there's no market for "3.0 adventures" because 3.5 adventures fill the bill.
To hear tell, that's not going to be the case with the current OGL or particularly with "3.5 with all the bells and whistles" on one hand and 4th Edition on the other.
There will be people --myself included-- that will "step off the bus" and continue to play D&D 3.5 for a good long time. And we'll appreciate having some new adventures.
I used to look at AD&D and say, 'that stuff is so primitive'. But now, with the death of DRAGON, I've come to realize that 'fluff text' can be more important and helpful to your campaign than 'crunch text'. So now I say, tall and proud,
'I will stay in 3.5 and the books will be pried from my cold, dead fingers!'
Lord, there's so much good 3.0 and 3.5 stuff that I haven't tried that I could keep going for years without product. I realize it's more of a problem for folks who depend upon adventures, but still, there's a wealth of material.
And here is the problem for Wizards/Hasbro--if there is enough 3.x stuff out there to keep DMs and players happy for years, then what's the point of a publisher trying to drum up interest in another 3.x book? You might as well 1) close the doors, or 2) publish something no one has seen before.
It also mystifies me why people cry in their beer over changes wrought by 4.0--if they have enough gaming material to last for years, why be concerned about what is scheduled to be published six months from now?
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It also mystifies me why people cry in their beer over changes wrought by 4.0--if they have enough gaming material to last for years, why be concerned about what is scheduled to be published six months from now?
The converse of that is: what mystifies me is that 4e proponents, who are essentially getting what they want i.e. 4e next June, are so up in arms that there's this teeny weeny crew of guys snubbing their nose at WOTC and rolling with their dusty old tomes. Who cares? It's not like WOTC is going to stop doing what they're doing.
Do you see how condescending that statement sounds?
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It also mystifies me why people cry in their beer over changes wrought by 4.0--if they have enough gaming material to last for years, why be concerned about what is scheduled to be published six months from now?The converse of that is: what mystifies me is that 4e proponents, who are essentially getting what they want i.e. 4e next June, are so up in arms that there's this teeny weeny crew of guys snubbing their nose at WOTC and rolling with their dusty old tomes. Who cares? It's not like WOTC is going to stop doing what they're doing.
Do you see how condescending that statement sounds?
Caught you in a 4e thread!
For shame, for shame...
Well, I'm not a 4.0 proponent per se, so maybe that's why I am mystified that people on either 'side' of the issue get up in arms. It *is* only a game, after all...
It's only a game, but it's been part of our lives (in some cases) for over twenty years. That's longer than many relationships in this day and age!
I'd be more worried if folks weren't getting upset.
But I think that ultimately most of the noise is created by folks who don't understand why the rest of the gaming population doesn't agree with their particular point of view (pro 4.0 or against 4.0).
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It also mystifies me why people cry in their beer over changes wrought by 4.0--if they have enough gaming material to last for years, why be concerned about what is scheduled to be published six months from now?The converse of that is: what mystifies me is that 4e proponents, who are essentially getting what they want i.e. 4e next June, are so up in arms that there's this teeny weeny crew of guys snubbing their nose at WOTC and rolling with their dusty old tomes. Who cares? It's not like WOTC is going to stop doing what they're doing.
Do you see how condescending that statement sounds?Caught you in a 4e thread!
For shame, for shame...
No, it's a 3.75 thread. See? I was tricked!
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I used to look at AD&D and say, 'that stuff is so primitive'. But now, with the death of DRAGON, I've come to realize that 'fluff text' can be more important and helpful to your campaign than 'crunch text'. So now I say, tall and proud,
'I will stay in 3.5 and the books will be pried from my cold, dead fingers!'
I'm with the kobold: "You will pry my 3.5 from my cold dead hands" ... Not really but it's fun to say.
I'll go where Paizo goes ... and that's the truth.
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Let's see, I'm still not finished running Shackled City, I have all of Savage Tide collected, need to work on Age of Worms, subscribed to Pathfinder, want to pick up Castle Whiterock, and I haven't played even a quarter of the base classes, and even a fraction of the prestige classes out there. You know, I think I'll be just fine if no one puts out any 3.5 material.
And here is the problem for Wizards/Hasbro--if there is enough 3.x stuff out there to keep DMs and players happy for years, then what's the point of a publisher trying to drum up interest in another 3.x book? You might as well 1) close the doors, or 2) publish something no one has seen before.
It also mystifies me why people cry in their beer over changes wrought by 4.0--if they have enough gaming material to last for years, why be concerned about what is scheduled to be published six months from now?
*4.0 haters mob unfortunate victim*
We all 'cry in our beer mugs' because it's annoying. If we want to be a published writer in D&D, we'll be hard-pressed to become a payed one for 3.5 if everyone's interested in, say, 5.00001, or whatever. Also, it's harder to get 3.5 books in a 5.00001 age. The trouble is, too many folk refuse to stick to 3.5, so we're 'a dying race'.
We all 'cry in our beer mugs' because it's annoying. If we want to be a published writer in D&D, we'll be hard-pressed to become a payed one for 3.5 if everyone's interested in, say, 5.00001, or whatever. Also, it's harder to get 3.5 books in a 5.00001 age. The trouble is, too many folk refuse to stick to 3.5, so we're 'a dying race'.
There's a big difference between being a DM/player and a professional writer.
Players can stick to the material that they have in their personal libraries, or buy out the existing 3.5 books (at soon-to-be discounted prices), and continue to play with 3.5 rules. Even with a major "version upgrade", I'm sure there will be some kind of backward-compatibility. So interesting 4.0 elements can probably be converted to 3.5 rules (or vice-versa) with some hard-thinking and elbow grease. Plus, there'll probably be "translation keys" that are either fan-produced or commercially available to bring your old favorite adventures up-to-date.
Quite differently, professional writers are tied to whatever publishers decide to buy. While some publishers will continue to commission and release 3.5 material for the next year or more, eventually they'll only commission new material in the new ruleset. Even if they maintain their old 3.5 titles in-print, it's just good business sense to cover your bases with new 4.0 material. So writers who refuse to write for 4.0 aren't so much being "killed off" by WotC as they're committing quasi-honorable suicide.
As I can see (I voted for the 3.5 option) You can find support for perhaps any defunct system, if not look for this systems:
Hackmaster
Osric
Gore
Labyrinth Lord
And many other so called "retro-clone game systems", created to attract a (very vast) nostalgic niche market (and no so nostalgic, I could bet newcomers gamers are playing them). So don't worry believe me, there will be a 3.5 market. If there is people willing to buy 3.5 stuff, there will be publishers willing to provide it to them (and gather their Dollars).
We are now entering to the era of the perhaps most popular "retro-clone game system": "the classic d20" so enjoy.
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Lots of people have copies of the whole 3.0 and 3.5 SRDs. Heck, -I- have copies of both. And if WotC decides they don't want to post those on their site anymore, a lot of use will just put them up ourselves.
I have every intention of playing 4e. I also have every intention of playing 3.5 or 3.75, for years to come. Either 4e will be similar enought I can adapt old material to new games and new material to old games, or it'll be different enough I'll enjoy the different play styles of the different sytems. Same as my current Mutants and Masterminds, SAGA and homebrew d20 games, or the many Hero system games I've played.
But I'm also pretty sure I'll continue to professionally produce pdfs of 3.5 material. It's too much fun for me to stop doing it, and I have too many ideas (and a few vocal fans) to stop anytime soon. It won't be like having WotC or Paizo continue 3.5 support, but I am sure a lot of little guys like me will keep up a stream of useable 3.5 material for years to come.
Let Wizards declare it dead. We all know that dead is no serious hindrance. What's Raise Dead, Resurrection, True Resurrection, Incarnation, True Incarnation and the like for?
The Third-EE
You can't kill the 3e
The 3e will live on
4e tried to kill the 3e
But they failed, as they were smite to the ground
Wizards tried to kill the 3e
But they failed, as they were stricken down to the ground.
Gleemax tried to kill the 3e HAHAHAHAHAHA
They failed, as they were thrown to the ground
No one can destroy the 3e
The 3e will strike you down with a vicious blow
We are the vanquished foes of the 3e
We trid to win for why we do not know
4e tried to destroy the 3e, but the 3e had its way
Gleemax then tried to dethrone the 3e, but 3e was in the way
Wizards tried to destroy the 3e, but 3e was much too strong
Scott Rouse tried to defile the 3e, but Scott Rouse was proven wrong
Yea!
3e!
It comes from hell!
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If there is a demand for 3.X material then there will be a supply of 3.5X material. If not from publishers then from fans. The WEB has unlocked the shackles imposed upon the huddled masses by big brother.
I don't wanna shift to a new ed next year because that entails coughing out money again. Did I say live in a 3rd world country?
Moreover, I don't wanna spend time studying a new set of rules. It's not as if WOTC will give seminars. Besides, I just wanna game.
Moreover, I don't wanna spend time studying a new set of rules. It's not as if WOTC will give seminars.
I think they will. Read something about it. They will be on the DI, of course. And probably with a juicy price tag attached.
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Today when searching for the System Reference Document (SRD) you can only get or use the 3.5 revision of the d20SRD. Thats the only official one supplied by WOTC. What happened to the original SRD? 3rd Edition? It was replaced by the 3.5 d20SRD. 4th Edition is still supposed to be d20, kind of a d20 advanced is my understanding. I've heard that they should be releasing an SRD for 4th Edition to allow other publishers to produce competing products. (Sources Please) Why would they not, replace the 3.5 d20SRD with the 4th Edition SRD? OGL remains in place, they just changed what content could be used within it is all. Technically, the SRD is still WOTC property which they have allowed everyone to use.
You can't get the 3.0 SRD, perhaps, if for some reason you didn't download a copy before (though a previous poster has offered a location and I'm sure I've seen a couple of others). You can certainly use it. The Open Game Licence cannot be revoked for any content that was published under the licence. I have a copy of the 3.0 SRD and have just put out a download that refers to it for certain points of information that were left out of 3.5, listing both versions plus Modern in section 15.