Since there seems to be quite a few new people starting this path, I thought it might be a good idea to have a place to point out jarring logical problems, so that us oldies can help new DMs watch out for various things.
The main goal is not a place for more foreshadowing or more linkages, it's for stuff the PCs point out to you when you run the game, and possible fixes.
So, to start off: Two things in Flood Season.
1) Considering the time scale, Triel Eldurast must be on her way to Cauldron from the Lucky monkey when the PCs storm out to help Sarcem Delasharn. There is only one road, and the PCs are likely cautious. So why don't they react when they meet her? The easiest solution is that she too is cautious, and takes great pains to hide when the PCs pass by. Then again, that's not too easy in full plate...
2) The module states clearly that the Kopru ruins are located well beneath the surface of the water in the crater lake. The ruins have a lake that is connected to the crater lake. The ruins could be pressurized, but the passage the PCs take to get down there should bleed off the air pretty quickly. The best fix is not to have a connection between the lakes. =)
Anyone else?
The wands are not needed to stop the Flood, only to prevent damage caused by the Flood.
Invent some way that the wands can be use to control the flood but be vague about it uless the players investigate fully.
Since there seems to be quite a few new people starting this path, I thought it might be a good idea to have a place to point out jarring logical problems, so that us oldies can help new DMs watch out for various things.
So, to start off: Two things in Flood Season.
1) Considering the time scale, Triel Eldurast must be on her way to Cauldron from the Lucky monkey when the PCs storm out to help Sarcem Delasharn. There is only one road, and the PCs are likely cautious. So why don't they react when they meet her? The easiest solution is that she too is cautious, and takes great pains to hide when the PCs pass by. Then again, that's not too easy in full plate...
Indeed the PC's might wondering, so this is how I solved it.
On her way back Triel sends a scout ahead, so she was warned of the PC's arrival. They drove the cart into a sideway (leading to one of the many Hillfolk settlements) and waited a few minutes to resume their journey. Later when the PC's returned from the Lucky Monkey searching for Triel, Shensen found the tracks of the cart (yep, including sidetrip) leading to Cauldron.Otherwise she took an alternative route only known to the Hillfolk.
2) The module states clearly that the Kopru ruins are located well beneath the surface of the water in the crater lake. The ruins have a lake that is connected to the crater lake. The ruins could be pressurized, but the passage the PCs take to get down there should bleed off the air pretty quickly. The best fix is not to have a connection between the lakes. =)
I didn't consider this as a problem (the use of the wands to lower the water level all the more though, but that has already been adressed before). The premise is that the water level in the central lake rises thereby putting more pressure on the draining system. (actually not much: think of it the lake's surface is 1300 feet above that of Phantom lake, if it rises 10 feet then the hydrodynamic pressure goes up to 1310 feet, not much of a difference for a draining system).
The nice thing though: it's all fantasy!So, due to the rising pressure the inflow in the lower lake begins to increase. When they arrive the PC's see the waterfall and might notice that the water level already has risen considerably.
When they have finished their job the beach has flooded (or the ruins themselves) and the path to the elevator...
The Skulvin or Kopru might come in now, if you haven't been able to use them (my PC's used a charge of the wand to lower the waters, thereby angering the Kopru).
Hope this helps
When the PC's meet Kaurophon at the beginning of the Test of the Smoking Eye, he states that he does not know why he was unable to pass the test. When they reach the Cathedral of Feathers, he can demonstrate that he is unable to enter the Antechamber, but he doesn't know why. But when you meet Saureya, the deva says he told Kaurophon why he couldn't get into the Antechamber - he's from the lower planes and is prevented from doing so. This makes Kaurophon look like a liar - which he is, but not about that particular thing. Pick one and stick with it, or your players may make more of it than it's worth.
Hmm, I think that according to the HC he actually said that he chose correctly but was unable to beat the bebelith. So that lie will become already obvious when he can't enter the Antechamber.
In my game Kaurophon did not say much about the challenge, but reacted surprised when he could not enter. So later he got embarassed by Saureya's explanation.But remember, he is a sorcerer with a lot of charisma but lacks the intelligence of a smart wizard. That's how I played him in the final battle too.
Bravo! An excellent idea, Corian.
One suggestion: For a thread like this (where it contains a combination of observations and discussion about those observations), it works best when the first post is occasionally updated to include an aggregation of all the observations raised in the thread's posts. That way, new readers can get the info they need without having to read through several pages of posts.
Some observations I'll add...
Also in Flood Season:
1) There is no door on the map between areas 10 and 11; there should be one, unless the only way to perform maintenance on the winch mechanism is to set off the trap.
2) If you don't want the flame from a single torch to burn all the webs (and thus eliminate several traps and the concealment of treasure) in areas 27 and 30-32, be prepared to come up with some sort of logic as to why the webs won't catch fire. In my campaign, I made them wet enough to still be sticky, but not wet enough to burn beyond the immediate area where flame is applied. So a torch could clear webs within reach of the PC waving it, and a burning hands spell would wipe out a 15' cone of webs, but the webs would not actually catch fire and burn any farther.
In Demonskar the party may actively fight against the city guards during the tax riot. They may help Maavu escape. Maavu will be declared a traitor and an army sent against Redgorge.
Alek's death causes this all to be reversed. In a closed-door sense it takes the pressure off of Terseon, but there's no explanation for the man in the street. The party should also be declared traitors, and since Vhalantru is increasingly worried about them, they should be hunted by the city guard from here on out whenever they're in Cauldron.
When Maavu returns to Cauldron in Soul Pillars he is pardoned with no explanation. The party is also supposed to be free to walk the streets (at least between Soul Pillars and Lords of Oblivion the HC says you're supposed to give them as much downtime as they need). Given Vhalantru and the Cagewrights' increased fear of the party meddling in the impending ritual, this seems really dumb on the bad guys' parts. The pressure should be on the party from the tax riot on, at least while they're in Cauldron.
Bravo! An excellent idea, Corian.
One suggestion: For a thread like this (where it contains a combination of observations and discussion about those observations), it works best when the first post is occasionally updated to include an aggregation of all the observations raised in the thread's posts. That way, new readers can get the info they need without having to read through several pages of posts.
Ully, unlike most boards I have come across, on the Paizo boards I think it is only possible to edit a post for a short amount of time after you post it before it is locked. So Corian can't do what you're suggesting, even though it is a good idea.
Olaf the Stout
With an appropriate knowledge roll or just from past experience, Kaurophon could've heard of the nexus and its power. He'd be willing to accept the damage especially if he could fool the party's cleric into healing him afterwards.
I intend to have Kaurophon make a big show of "cleansing the evil artifact" and looking quite drained afterwards.
Ully, unlike most boards I have come across, on the Paizo boards I think it is only possible to edit a post for a short amount of time after you post it before it is locked. So Corian can't do what you're suggesting, even though it is a good idea.
I guess that explains why such threads don't already exist. Thanks, Olaf, I had no idea.
With an appropriate knowledge roll or just from past experience, Kaurophon could've heard of the nexus and its power. He'd be willing to accept the damage especially if he could fool the party's cleric into healing him afterwards.
I intend to have Kaurophon make a big show of "cleansing the evil artifact" and looking quite drained afterwards.
I did something similar. Kaurophon already knew the lich from the past when Myaruk was still among the living. In that time they discussed the possible existence of such a beneficial artifact, the Nexus. During the encounter Myaruk accused Kaurophon of bringing the PC's to his treasure.
This was really interesting. As you know Kaurophon pretented to become a good creature, despite his terrible evil enheritance. During the trip in Occipitus, the PC's brought up the issue of sacrifying yourself for the benefits of the group. A concept which was difficult to comprehend for our evil sorcerer. Thus when the party was stuck, because of Myaruk's apparent immunity in the nexus, Kaurophon volunteered to bullrush the lich out off it. They were so touched by the offer, that the dwarven cleric promised him healing after his heroic deed.So he got hurt, but gained 4 levels and was healed afterwards.
By the way, did any of you DM's let Kaurophon rise a level? I used McVee's mini-adventure of Occipitus, which is really great and adds a lot of flavor to the journey, which should give him enough XP for level 12. In this way he also doesn't need the scroll of desintegration, he can cast it 4 times/day himself now!
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Also test of the Smoking Eye. Where does the Rakshasa get the second lantern of revealing? Do new lanterns reappear whenever someone passes the test? Do new bebiliths reappear? Presumably the Rakshasa/Fire Giant must have passed after the PCs - how do they get ahead of the PCs?
And I can't remember the reason off the top of my head, but there's something wrong about the timeline in the backstory of Alek Tercival.
My intention was merely as a storehouse of "stuff that has gone wrong while DMing SCAP", and if you're serious about doing so, and we can keep the content of this thread high quality, what's a few board pages to check through compared to the massive undertaking of the SCAP? =)
A few areas more that warrant attention, preferably in advance:
Zenith trajectory: The area from the pit of seven jaws to Bhal-hamatugn is a weird place. It says it's in the underdark, which should mean branching passages and a complex map. It also says that Zenith got from the Malachite Fortress to Bhal-Hamatugn through the underdark, which also implies a second possible path. So, the heroes end up in what's essentially a huge maze, with monsters, and no map. A quick fix is to leave directions for the temple somewhere, perhaps left by one of the prisoners, perhaps with the mad bard. I haven't been able to do better.
Second, what happens to Zenith after the heroes return with him to Cauldron? There really is no way to make this exchange work well. Vhalantru "offers" to help in any way he can, several times. This tipped my players off good. They finally decided to hold on to Zenith, keeping him in the temple of St Cuthbert. This triggered the kidnapping by Kravichak, which made the plotline very railroaded, and obviously so. And after this, Vhalantru doesn't pursue the matter much, which aimed heavy suspicion against him at a point where it shouldn't come yet.
Life's bazaar/later: Terrem Kharatys is a problem. While I understand the desire to show off the big guy Vhalantru while the adventurers are low level enough not to threaten him, there are bad consequences to this encounter as written. If Vhalantru and Thifirane had not intervened, the heroes would have returned Terrem and the other children to the orphanage, and noone would have been any wiser. Now, they know that a big bad beholder wanted the kid for something, then left him to the orphanage. Well, fine so far. But before the ritual can begin, the Cagewrights need Terrem, and he will be kidnapped again. Which is all well and good, but prepare for the heroes to try to prevent this from happening by all available means.
Zenith trajectory: The area from the pit of seven jaws to Bhal-hamatugn is a weird place. It says it's in the underdark, which should mean branching passages and a complex map. It also says that Zenith got from the Malachite Fortress to Bhal-Hamatugn through the underdark, which also implies a second possible path. So, the heroes end up in what's essentially a huge maze, with monsters, and no map. A quick fix is to leave directions for the temple somewhere, perhaps left by one of the prisoners, perhaps with the mad bard. I haven't been able to do better.
I think it is a stretch to say that everywhere in the underdark is maze-like, however your point that there has to be more than one way to and from Bhal-Hamatugn is well taken. Rather than give the PCs an actual map (how did it get back, after all?) Have the PCs directed back to the Malachite Fortress to see if clues were left that point them to where he might have gone. You can then have runes found at the base of the statue in Dwarvish that say what the expeditions goal was and mention that they will be marking where they have cleared up to with Dwarven runes. Then in the underdark itself the PCs can look for these runes at any intersections they come to and see which ones were taken (marked with a safe symbol or the like) and which ones were not (marked with a symbol indicating they will return). This would mean the PCs are able to track the path of the dwarves as they went. If you have them pass by creatures that weren't killed by them (either parlayed or avoided them) and the PCs interact with them they can here stories that speak to Zenith's ever increasing madness and the dwindling numbers of the dwarves. The runes on the walls mentioned above could even be a whole description of their journeys to date. Would certainly give more feel to the dwarves doomed quests and its eventual end.
Second, what happens to Zenith after the heroes return with him to Cauldron? There really is no way to make this exchange work well. Vhalantru "offers" to help in any way he can, several times. This tipped my players off good. They finally decided to hold on to Zenith, keeping him in the temple of St Cuthbert. This triggered the kidnapping by Kravichak, which made the plotline very railroaded, and obviously so. And after this, Vhalantru doesn't pursue the matter much, which aimed heavy suspicion against him at a point where it shouldn't come yet.
The SCAP book indicates that it is ok for the PCs to start suspecting Vhalantru of something at this point. The railroady part is fine as it does a couple of things. It shows that they messed with someones plans and that whoever it was is powerful. The only part I would really change here is to have Vhalantru tell them he is there to pick up Zenith at the insistence of the Lord Mayor. If the PCs question him about it you can have him just as confused about the Mayor's reasons and maybe even mention that he has concerns about the Mayor and his running of the city (shift the focus onto corruption in the Cauldron government). This foreshadows many of the changes coming, stalls the PCs in direct suspicion of Vhalantru (though that suspicion will be growing), and muddies the waters long enough to likely hold off their immediate investigations.
Life's bazaar/later: Terrem Kharatys is a problem. While I understand the desire to show off the big guy Vhalantru while the adventurers are low level enough not to threaten him, there are bad consequences to this encounter as written. If Vhalantru and Thifirane had not intervened, the heroes would have returned Terrem and the other children to the orphanage, and noone would have been any wiser. Now, they know that a big bad beholder wanted the kid for something, then left him to the orphanage. Well, fine so far. But before the ritual can begin, the Cagewrights need Terrem,...
Yep, and Terrem disappearing again is a big huge flag indicating that the beholder is still active in the city and has more plans. Having the bulbous form of the beholder spotted over the city at night is another good way to keep reminding them of this. Unless your PCs are taking Terrem with them on all their adventures (Terrem became the Paladin's page in my game, but she isn't dumb enough to bring him into dugeons), Terrem will be available for kidnapping and it is good that the PCs worry about this... even if they don't have much in the way of clues to go on to fix it. I suppose it might be a good idea for us to go over what spells are available to parties of the level when he disappears that they might use to find him and what information that they might get from casting those spells. Same with other forms of gathering information.
Overall though, I think having things happen beyond the PCs control is not rail roading, it is plot. Things should not only happen when they PCs intervene. Things are going on in Cauldron, big things, and giving the PCs hints of them or even hitting them over the head for interfering with them (believe it or not this is rewarding them since they get a lot more info this way), is a good thing.
Sean Mahoney
The rescue of Terrim in Life's Bazaar is a complex web. K is kidnapping people but the LL has not taken action against him. That implies that K has permission to work in the city, when he kidnaps the wrong person. V works with the CW but is also their errand boy. V also wants to keep the LL in the dark so when the CW tells him to get Terrim back he doesn’t have time to go to the LL nor does he want the LL to know that there are people that are off limits and who they are. He find s out who took Terrim and goes directly there to get him back. He barely even notices the random adventurers standing around. He offers Terrim back to the CW but they don’t want to feed and house him until they are ready so they have him returned to the orphanage.
His explains why Orbits goes himself and why Terrim is returned.
I intend to solve the potential problem (enough recovery time versus being outlawed in Cauldron) elegantly by letting their plane shift back from Occipitus misfire in such a way that they end up very near Sasserine, which - I believe - they'll use to stock up on all sorts of magical items (especially enhancements of existing weapons and armor that they were not allowed in Cauldron). While waiting for their items to finish, they'll have plenty of opportunity to enjoy downtime and spread some rumors about the situation in Cauldron, which can lead to all sorts of other hooks and so on ... After they return (maybe even by means of then available teleportation) they will face the immediate action by Vhalantru sending the assassins through Wee Jas...
My players have just finished the second part of the Test of the Smoking Eye and next session will hopefully get through the third. Without a tuning fork to the material plane, how exactly do the Plane Shift scrolls they have acquired work? Or do they use the amulet that Kaurophon has? I don’t have the info in front of me so I don’t remember the specifics.
I also intend for the PCs to end up back near Sasserine (Actually Rel Mord of Nyrond in my campaign as I chose the location for Cauldron before it was ever published. Between the Rakers and Gamboge forest seemed to fit. And yes we have been playing SCAP that long.)
When they get to Rel Mord I wanted to have a side quest that could in some way further their knowledge of the overall plot. My players every session wonder what the heck Occipitus has to do with Cauldron and don’t like the idea of this planar jaunt. My loose idea, as I haven’t figured it out fully yet, is to have the PCs meet up with an emissary of Cauldron (Vhalantru) in Rel Mord. He asks them to help foil a conspiracy that has been identified by the Nyrond government. This is going to be an adaption of an old retired LG mod, NMR4-06: Syrul's Slander. In it the PCs are teleported to the hideout of some Yuan-ti conspiracy pushing the ideas of Syrul. They are but one such party in one city, as other adventuring parties are doing the same kinds of things in other major cities of the region (Capital of Pale, etc.) Vhalantru was in Rel Mord as he answered the call from the Nyrond government to Cauldron to help out. He is fortunate to have the PCs close by to help out. In actuality the transportation into the Yuan-ti hideout is a trap. Vhalantru is hoping the PCs fail and the Yuan-ti conspiracy is not associated with Syrul but instead is associated with Shatterhorn. I intend to use this as a way to foreshadow Shatterhorn as the HQ of these Yuan-ti conspirators that have hideouts in all the major cities of the region.
Eric.