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I am running this series for my sons and their friends (age range 7-10). Burnt Offerings was ideal for their sensitivities. Skinsaw murders has a bit of a sharper edge. I very much enjoy the product, and they are enjoying it also. However, I am in the process of... softening some of the edges in the plot and was wondering what this group thinks.
How would you adjust this? I am not so much concerned about murders as they understand that there are bad men in the world. I am more concerned about issues involving family violence. Explaining that daddies could kill mommies and children is one thing. Roleplaying it is another. Any thoughts on this?
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If it were me, I'd play down the inbreeding aspect of the adventure - if the Ogres aren't family then they're just insane for some unknown reason, and now they're no different from the other "bad men."
(Note: I only assume its the Kreeg doing the family-killing-family thing; I haven't read more than the introduction at this point. If it's not the Kreeg, the advice still applies - just make them not family.)
Just change the ogres to overgrown smurfs who simply wish their families away to the corn fields.
"That's a good thing ya dun, Tony. Ain't that a good thing he done?"
Conversely... can anyone tell me how to upgrade the Skinsaw Murders to an X rating?
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If it were me, I'd play down the inbreeding aspect of the adventure - if the Ogres aren't family then they're just insane for some unknown reason, and now they're no different from the other "bad men."
(Note: I only assume its the Kreeg doing the family-killing-family thing; I haven't read more than the introduction at this point. If it's not the Kreeg, the advice still applies - just make them not family.)
he wants help with SSM (pathfinder #2) not hook mountain (pathfinder #3) it sounds like the haunts are the issue? if that's so, how about just changing them to ghouls/advanced zombies of some sort that give clues that they were murdered on the grounds, but not more information then the haunt in question would?
[I havn't actually read that far yet, so I'm just speculating]
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The original Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho movie, if you've ever seen it, deals with the "crazy murderer" genre without being a total splattergore flick. I don't know the adventure since I'm saving it for playing, but....I figure an understanding of how Psycho rolls vs. an understanding of how Silence of the Lambs rolls can be of aid.
Psycho pretty much showed zero entrails, and in the big shower scene the violence is never directly shown--you see the knife plunging, you hear the music, you see a grasping hand and blood running into the drain along with the water, but you never actually see a direct visual representation of a knife cutting anybody. And the scene still works.
Again I have no direct details of the adventure, so I don't know what to amp up or what to tone down.
Contributor
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Something a la Frankenstein mob is what I'd have in mind...
I am running this series for my sons and their friends (age range 7-10). Burnt Offerings was ideal for their sensitivities. Skinsaw murders has a bit of a sharper edge. I very much enjoy the product, and they are enjoying it also. However, I am in the process of... softening some of the edges in the plot and was wondering what this group thinks.
How would you adjust this? I am not so much concerned about murders as they understand that there are bad men in the world. I am more concerned about issues involving family violence. Explaining that daddies could kill mommies and children is one thing. Roleplaying it is another. Any thoughts on this?
Eeeeh. Mmmmm.
I see your problem.
And, yes, the previous posters are too fixated on the word "family" and incest. They're overlooking the very dark nature of Chapter Two.
I've often thought that. Richard Pett gets overlooked because Nick Logue plays the sex card.
Anyway, here's a partial solution.
You're going to have a tougher time with Aldran and Iesha though. Unless perhaps they were just "dating" and you emphasize how horrified he was that he accidentally killed her. Mmmm.. that's a really tough one.
The original Alfred Hitchcock's Psycho movie, if you've ever seen it, deals with the "crazy murderer" genre without being a total splattergore flick. I don't know the adventure since I'm saving it for playing, but....I figure an understanding of how Psycho rolls vs. an understanding of how Silence of the Lambs rolls can be of aid.
Psycho pretty much showed zero entrails, and in the big shower scene the violence is never directly shown--you see the knife plunging, you hear the music, you see a grasping hand and blood running into the drain along with the water, but you never actually see a direct visual representation of a knife cutting anybody. And the scene still works.
Again I have no direct details of the adventure, so I don't know what to amp up or what to tone down.
Yeah... I'm not sure this is the greatest example of toning down things to make it kid friendly ever conceived. I know women who will not take a shower if they are in the house alone becuase of that movie.
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Well, too late for my advice, but I would steer clear of Runelords with a group of kids. Any chance of bridging into some of the Game Mastery stuff from Burnt Offerings? The Sin theme is so strong in #2 & #3 that you're going to have a hell of a time toning it down enough to run kids through it. I know there's a glimpse of a practicioner of Lust magic coming in one of the later installments as well. Hard to imagine how to change that so that it resonates with 7 year olds but doesn't completely lose its flavor.
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That's tough; here's my take.
When you get to three you're simply going to have to skip the Kreegs, probably replace them with a simpler rescue to get the allies on board.
If I were in your shoes (my kids are slightly older, but still too young for some of that material), I'd run Burnt Offerings as is, then branch off into a different series of adventures. Instead of continuing the AP, I'd use the background material only. It's not as easy as following the path, but these scenarios have a lot of potential land mines.
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Thanks for all your input.
Secondly, I have been able to use the game to teach my sons ethical lessons and come to a finer understanding of their thinking and how they approach the universe. My boys are aren’t at the point where they say, “My character would…” to abstractly determine a code of conduct based on their alignment or defined character background.. Their actions are still directly informed by their personal moral compass, so the actions they take tell me quite a bit about who they are.
I have been able to bring them to terms with real world causality. When my 7 year old gets mad in the Rusty Dragon and punches someone, he spend a night in the jail. When my ten year old puts his Halfling mage in front of cleric because he is angry that he is getting more kills than him, he gets knocked down.
So, in terms of ethical decisions, I have tried to give them the types of connections. What people do, has consequence. There is good in the world. There is evil. Here are the issues we have covered:
1. When is violence justified?
2. When is it right to break into a place you do not own?
3. What duties do we have to our friends?
4. How do you help someone deal with death?
5. What is the difference between self-defense and murder?
6. When is it acceptable to attack an enemy?
I think hard moral choices for these kids are a good thing and useful for them and will make them better adults. I am comfortable with the concept of “sin” and am fine with my sons understanding how we understand evil in western society. I don’t want to just abandon the series as a result. I do have to repurpose and translate at times.
Skinsaw Murders has some harsher content because it deals with domestic violence and murders within a household. I presented this in Burnt Offerings when Tsuto killed his Dad and the table of kids took it hard.
I am going to make some slight adjustments. Everyone at Fox Glove Manor who was murdered, is instead going to be entrapped and used to power the haunting. The kids will have to free them instead. The murders in Sand Point will not be mutilations and not everyone will be murdered. Some folks will be abducted. I am not going to dilute the undead/ghoul issue. These kids all watched LOTR and saw what almost happened to Frodo. They are ok with that as a concept. The lesson there for them was that evil can corrupt you through contact.
The changes I am making still let me teach hard lessons, but make the consequence less horrible for the victims. The largest issues so far have not been with the depth of the issues. The boys have been remarkably resilient dealing with complex ethical problems and listening to them exercise these intellectual muscles has been pretty awe inspiring. Their issues have been more with the plight of the innocent and the relatively powerless. They get a big kick out of being protectors and champions of the town. I want to continue to play to that but keep them focused on action and consequence and behavior and cost.
It’s a game, but it’s also a type of story telling. Stories have been potent teaching tools since we mastered fire and began to spend nights around them making sense of the universe.
Thanks again.
Really interesting solutions you came up with!
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Well, too late for my advice, but I would steer clear of Runelords with a group of kids. Any chance of bridging into some of the Game Mastery stuff from Burnt Offerings? The Sin theme is so strong in #2 & #3 that you're going to have a hell of a time toning it down enough to run kids through it. I know there's a glimpse of a practicioner of Lust magic coming in one of the later installments as well. Hard to imagine how to change that so that it resonates with 7 year olds but doesn't completely lose its flavor.
Its not too hard to tone things down with kids. I am playing RotRL with my four kids as well (ages 11-7). Some of the things you do are...
...cut out any nudity, play up the kissing Shayliss threw herself at my 10 year old sons cleric, wanting to kiss him. It made him blush as he looked for a way to politely extricate his character from her grasp. The episode ended well with Vin happy, Shayliss mad and the PC emberassed.
...mention facts. Don't explain the graphic details. "How can Tsuto be a half-elf?" my kids ask bewildered. "Obviously his mother cheated on her husband," says my wife. "Ooh..." say the kids, scandalized. They understand what they need to without knowing the details of how one actually goes about the process of cheating.
...Gloss over wounds, play up the blood. You don't have to mention the jaw is missing from the corpse up front but you can make it clear the blood is everywhere. Kids know where blood comes from but mine haven't seen enough movies or real life injuries to visualize massive bodily trauma.
When we reach Hook Mountain, there's no need to go into details of incest and the like. If you don't mention the possibility with children it will never cross their minds to ask. Having not read sins of the savior yet, I don't know yet what will need glossed over or changed but again, all you have to do is leave out "details" and there is no problem.
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To the OP question, though I see he has already made some adjustments to the story for his kids,... I am not personally worried about the family violence being portrayed because me and my wife are generally well adjusted, we don't hit each other, only occassionally actually yell at one another, and there is no domestic violence issues in any of their friends homes or cousins homes.
YMMV of course and I could see being worried, knowing the way kids think, if the children knew of a situation in their vicinity where domestic violence was a real-life issue. Mine however, I suspect, will simply think to themselves...how horrible. I'm glad I have a good home. At least thats what I would like to think their reaction will be :)
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To the OP question, though I see he has already made some adjustments to the story for his kids,... I am not personally worried about the family violence being portrayed because me and my wife are generally well adjusted, we don't hit each other, only occassionally actually yell at one another, and there is no domestic violence issues in any of their friends homes or cousins homes.
YMMV of course and I could see being worried, knowing the way kids think, if the children knew of a situation in their vicinity where domestic violence was a real-life issue. Mine however, I suspect, will simply think to themselves...how horrible. I'm glad I have a good home. At least thats what I would like to think their reaction will be :)
Just for the record, not a big wife beater myself. Likewise, my neighborhood is LUC/UMC & noone has domestic violence issues. I know what these kids haver responded poorly too so far and am trying to be sensitive to that.
Psycho pretty much showed zero entrails, and in the big shower scene the violence is never directly shown--you see the knife plunging, you hear the music, you see a grasping hand and blood running into the drain along with the water, but you never actually see a direct visual representation of a knife cutting anybody. And the scene still works.
Again I have no direct details of the adventure, so I don't know what to amp up or what to tone down.
Pardon me for me late to the party, but I have to point out, Heathy, that the craziest thing about the shower scene in Psycho is that it doesn't even show blood flowing down the drain. Seriously. Just water. Your mind and memory filled in the rest. Which, btw, is what makes eyewitnesses in trials so scary to lawyers.
Hey, James - I don't know if you saw it in another thread, but I picked up the sequel to The Descent on your suggestion. Despite loving the original, I kept away because of lots of bad reviews, but did pick it up and found it to be pretty good. Not as good as the original, partially because the novelty wasn't there, but still a good read. Thanks.
Edit: Oh, and I have to agree with you on Halloween - a hundred times better, and scarier, that any of the recent splatter movies.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Part of what makes PF2 so good is the substance of the horror. The psycho parent driven crazy be the evil spirit is a terrifying story because it recalls the helplessness of a child, a brutal betrayal of marriage, and the disruption of the family. Reducing the gore isn't going to reduce the horror of that drama, and if I read your post correctly, that's your concern.
So, I would probably advise with going with more Amnityville horror style random haunted house effects. A lot of the haunts are based around trauma which causes fear/ability score damage. For those, rework the source of the horror. Instead of the fear of your parents coming to kill you, have the walls bleed. Rewrite the background - Vorel's wife escaped with her child after disrupting the lich process and didn't dare return. Aldern's parents never lived in the manor.
In addition, you can replace some of the haunts with monsters like ghouls (if your players aren't sick of them), zombies, skeletons, and things of that nature. That will also remove the actual horrorific elements and replace them with something softer.
I hope these ideas help. You're probably looking for a way to keep as much of the core story in tact as you can and scale it back, and I'm not sure if my suggestions are in that direction. The only other thing I can think of is to file off the sharp edges - no one dies other than Vorel and Aldern. The spouses are possibly injured and escape with the children. Things like that spring to mind.
Edit: I missed your spoiler post and now that I read it, I think what I wrote above is particularly useless. Sounds like you have the situation well in hand. I like your idea of having the victims imprisoned and tied to the haunts.
One thing I'd emphasize with kids is: no futility. If they are sent to rescue someone, it should be possible--no "he was already dead before you even began" (it's a frequent theme in the APs). If they make a reasonable effort to do good, some good should come of it: no "dramatic irony" storylines where every good thing you try makes the situation worse. Time enough for that later.
I think the idea of replacing the dead people with imprisoned people is really strong. I'd love to hear how your game went. We had Aldern still alive (in a game with adults) for similar reasons; the player just wasn't up for losing a friend with no chance at all to help him.
Mary