You have forgotten that it is a kobold only classe, dear sir.
Please comply, failure will result in death!
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That's a lot of stuff.
For balance I think you'd have to gut the class-skills list, drop the unarmed strike and make a really limited pure-stealth spell list.
I've always thought or ninjas as more athletic than rogues - how about the standing leap ability from the CA class (can jump from standing but class as a running jump) and some jump/climb/tumble boosts.
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At this point, I'd probably make a ninja a multiclassed monk/rogue.Mike might call that blasphemy.
Well, the Complete Adventurer version was rogue, plus monk, minus all the suck you'd have if you actually rolled a monk/rogue. (And, thanks in no small part to the efforts of Mr. McArtor, a ninja/monk is exceedingly badass.)
Speaking of ninja classes, I seem to recall that one of the 3.0 splatbook ninja prestige classes had a fantastic ability I haven't seen since. If memory serves, the ninja was taking 10 on Hide and Move Silently checks at all times, unless he specifically said otherwise. I just loved that idea, and I don't think it's ever shown up again.
Yes, I remember seeing that one too. I can't remember if it was one of the OA prestige classes like Shadow Scout or one of the others though. There were some cool abilities in the Ninja of the Crescent Moon (from Sword and Fist 3.0) which most were converted into the CAdv Ninja, but some didn't make it that were nice. Not talking about the Kuji-kiri either...that was just way too Naruto with the hand-signs and all.
The Ninja of the Crescent Moon did have that ability. It was called Always Sneaky. I think it was their capstone ability. That was one of the best 3.0 prestige classes. Unfortunately, I never got to play one. I think the assassain base class in the most recent issue of Kobold Quarterly would make a pretty good ninja. The Complete Adventurer one is pretty good. I got to play one, and he was pretty nasty at lower levels. He got in a few one shot kills.
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I'll second what fake healer said about weapons.
The unarmed strike makes sense at the 1d6, but improving it doesn't really make sense. A ninja should be able to do lethal damage with bare hands, but it's so iconic for them to use weapons that making most weapons 'sub-optimal' is a bad idea.
Sneak Attack is a powerful ability. Because the ninja is not supposed to be seen, I think you can address the balance issue with giving them Sudden Strike instead. They're not going to be as strong 'toe to toe' as a rogue in a flanking situation, but if they have a few mobility related abilities sudden strike will make a lot of sense.
Assassin Base Class, Revision 1
Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.BAB: Good, as Fighter
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will1: Sneak Attack +1d6, AC Bonus (Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Unarmed Strike (1d6)
3: Uncanny Dodge, Poison Use.
4: Fast Movement +10ft.
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: AC Bonus +1
9: Unarmed Strike (1d8)
10: Sneak Attack +3d6
11: Rapid Stalking (Charge), Tradition Secret
12: Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Unarmed Strike (1d10)
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Evasion
15: Hide in Plain sight, Tradition Secret
16: AC Bonus +2
17: Rapid Stalking (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6,
19: Tradition Secret
20: Unarmed Strike (2d6), Impromptu Death Attack 1/daySpells: Progression as a Paladin/Ranger. Spells drawn from Assassin List. Int based casting. Memorization type. There may be room to do Spell lists specific to Traditions, I'm not sure yet.
I like this so far, although I would think that Ninjas would get Good Wisdom. Ninjas would have to be able to resist mind-affecting things, especially if captured or questioned about their objectives.
Also that ability someone stated earlier about always taking 10 on hide/move silent unless specified as a Tradition Secret, and you've got me sold.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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In general... What is it with having a class ability every level?
Ok, still don't like the good BAB. I'd say toss slippery mind in there though.
Int based casting may be too good for a skill monkey class. I'd stick to Cha casting.
Drop the scaling unarmed strike damage. give him improved unarmed strike as a feat. 1d3+sneak attack is good enough for the 'ninja chop'
What is a 'tradition secret'?
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In general... What is it with having a class ability every level?
Ok, still don't like the good BAB. I'd say toss slippery mind in there though.
Int based casting may be too good for a skill monkey class. I'd stick to Cha casting.
Drop the scaling unarmed strike damage. give him improved unarmed strike as a feat. 1d3+sneak attack is good enough for the 'ninja chop'
What is a 'tradition secret'?
Yeah, either Charisma or Wisdom based casting. The ninja meditates for spells not memorizing them. Wisdom would go good for the mind resisting stuff.
I agree with the unarmed scaling damage also. Improved unarmed strike would be enough, maybe with the option of doing different damage types (slashing, piercing, or bludgeoning, depending on the actual strike used, like ripping out a throat, or tossing out a ridgehand.)
Curse me for coming into this discussion late.
Well since I am here, I want to throw a few ideas out. First, there is some possibility of historical ninja having ties to the samurai, specifically some may have been samurai families. These served as military scouts and bodyguards. During wartime, they would have been tasked with disrupting enemy supply lines.
I used this idea as a bases for my rewrite of the CAdv ninja (which I called the Shinobi), giving them bonuses to Sense Motive and Bluff, and a few other minor tweeks. This version serves a role more in keeping with the bodyguard protector, while still setting up for the Assassin prestige class for the assassin style ninja.
Keep in mind that Ninja were also used spys. Actually, they were likely more commonly used as spies over assassins. So, the qualities of the Assassin do not have to be built into the class. I would drop the death attack and go for a spy/infiltrator/bodyguard. Groups that specialize in assassination would train in the assassin presitge class.
Basically, this class is an attempt at making a class that fills the need for both Ninja and Assassin's as a base class.
Tall order, I know.
Good BAB is going out the window, I think. I liked it in the Rokugan Ninja, but with the goodies this class has, I don't think its really justified at this point. Reducing the Unarmed Damage to stay at 1d6 might be a good idea, the simply maybe let one or more traditions take higher damages for it, should they focus on Unarmed Damage.
Always Sneaky can be covered with the Skill Mastery rogue Special Ability.
Take 10 Even under stress on a few skills of you choosing.
As for the Acrobatics bonuses, that'd be nice, I am just trying to keep this OGL if possible, so I can't take stuff from the non-OGL WotC stuff.
Keep more stuff coming folks, I'll post both versions here again so a comparison can be done.
Tradition Secrets coming soon.
Oh, and for doing away with Death Attack, I pretty much want this to be fitting for either Ninja or Assassin's. Basically like the old 1st edition Assassin class with Ninja flair. So I think Death Attack will stay.
This is the BAB altered, otherwise unchanged version.
Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.
Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.
BAB: Average, Like Cleric
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will
1: Sneak Attack +1d6, AC Bonus (Like a Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Unarmed Strike (1d6)
3: Uncanny Dodge, Poison Use.
4: Fast Movement +10ft.
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: AC Bonus +1
9: Unarmed Strike (1d8)
10: Sneak Attack +3d6
11: Rapid Stalking (Charge), Tradition Secret
12: Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Unarmed Strike (1d10)
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Evasion
15: Hide in Plain sight, Tradition Secret
16: AC Bonus +2
17: Rapid Stalking (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6,
19: Tradition Secret
20: Unarmed Strike (2d6), Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Spells: Progression as a Ranger/Paladin, using the Assassin Spell list
Int-based Memorization casting.
This is another altered/revised version
Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.
Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.
BAB: Average, Like Cleric
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will
1: Sneak Attack +1d6, AC Bonus (Like a Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Improved Unarmed Strike feat
3: Uncanny Dodge, Poison Use.
4: Fast Movement +10ft, Acrobatics +2
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: AC Bonus +1
9:
10: Sneak Attack +3d6, Tradition Secret
11: Rapid Stalking (Charge), Acrobatics +4
12: Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Improved Evasion
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Tradition Secret
15: Hide in Plain sight
16: AC Bonus +2
17: Rapid Stalking (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6, Tradition Secret
19: Acrobatics +6
20: Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Spells: Progression as a Ranger/Paladin, using the Assassin Spell list
Cha or Wis-based Memorization casting.
After this, please view and let me know which version is better liked. I am going to review a few things too.
Tradition Secrets will definately include Skill Mastery, certain traditions perhaps can increase their Unarmed Damage, etc. Start dropping some ideas for those too if you will please.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Might be a lot of additional work, but you might consider putting the tradition secrets into specific groups, i.e. kind of like the variant monk styles. If one is part of a certain tradition, family, house, etc. they get a set list of tradition secrets that they learn.
Just a thought, unless you prefer a pick and choose type list.
With the groupings, you could always create other family, house, tradition groups later on to choose from.
A brief example might be (using my earlier example):
Falling Leaf Style
Tradition Secret 1: Gain Weapon Specialization feat
Tradition Secret 2: With your specialized weapon, your critical threat range is doubled
Tradition Secret 3: The critical multiplier of your specialized weapon is increased by one (i.e. x2 becomes x3, etc.)
Just off the top of my head. Several groupings like this could be created.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Looking at the revision,
Make uncanny dodge a tradition secret, and move poison use to 6th level. Move Evasion to 3rd. I also don't like the idea of charging silently or running silently, seems strange.
Get rid of improved evasion and improved uncanny dodge, make them tradition secrets.
Not sure what acrobatics is.
So let us look at this:
2: Improved Unarmed Strike feat
3: Evasion
4: Fast Movement +10ft, Acrobatics +2
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8:
9: Tradition Secret
10: Sneak Attack +3d6,
11: Acrobatics +4
12:
13: Tradition Secret
14: Sneak Attack +4d6,
15:
16: Hide in Plain sight
17: Tradition Secret
18: Sneak Attack +5d6,
19: Acrobatics +6
20: Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Add improved critical (unarmed strike), cloak dance, and deadly precision to the tradition secrets. Skill Mastery will allow the ninja to walk/run past normal mooks so no need for the charging silently thing.
Oh, and don't forget how the spells mesh with the abilities.
I'm clearly in the minority, but I just don't think that a whole new class should be made for the ninja. I think a variant of the rogue with some ki powers as optional special abilities would be better.
With very slight modification, the Soulknife makes for an excellent ninja.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'm clearly in the minority, but I just don't think that a whole new class should be made for the ninja. I think a variant of the rogue with some ki powers as optional special abilities would be better.
I'm in agreement acutally.
Basic ninja = rogue
Ninja good at killing people = Rogue/Assassin (or GR's assassin)
Ninja good at shadowy stuff = Rogue/Shadowdancer)
I'm just trying to help build a class that isn't overpoweringly cheesy.
I have to agree with those who don't want to see a "ninja" class. A standard rogue could be built into an excellent ninja, if a few feats were added for "mysterious ninja powers". A couple of "ninja" alternate levels for the rogue might finish the job.
You can't please everyone, unfortunately. The archetypical ninja has abilities that could eclipse other classes if they were given full scope as a class, but a "nerfed" ninja wouldn't satisfy ninja enthusiasts.
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This is basically an exercise in class building with "ninja" as the goal. If you don't want to use the class, have some respect for those that are enjoying the idea and don't post on the thread.
Nobody is forcing anyone to use the idea or saying that this class should be made into an actual class, this is just a group of like-minded individuals tossing ideas out on how to make a class, not whether to make a class.
Have some respect for other people's ideas and thoughts.
FH
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If Sneak Attack is going to be included rather than sudden strike, I think that capping out at 5d6 is probably fairly safe. I would like to see a regular progression, however.
To avoid front-loading, maybe +1d6 at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th. Gives an even distribution (+1d6 every 4 levels)after first gaining the ability.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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If Sneak Attack is going to be included rather than sudden strike, I think that capping out at 5d6 is probably fairly safe. I would like to see a regular progression, however.
To avoid front-loading, maybe +1d6 at 2nd, 6th, 10th, 14th, 18th. Gives an even distribution (+1d6 every 4 levels)after first gaining the ability.
*NODS* That's what I did for my spellstalker. I think 5d6 is fine with other abilities. Also helps with expanding the progression.
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Contributor
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This is basically an exercise in class building with "ninja" as the goal. If you don't want to use the class, have some respect for those that are enjoying the idea and don't post on the thread.
Nobody is forcing anyone to use the idea or saying that this class should be made into an actual class, this is just a group of like-minded individuals tossing ideas out on how to make a class, not whether to make a class.Have some respect for other people's ideas and thoughts.
FH
Agreed. The game of this thread is "Let's make a ninja class." If you don't want to play that game, go to a different thread. :)
OOH! Great thread!
I'm of the opinion that there should be multiple ninja classes. (Bet that wasn't popular! ;D )
Why just have one ninja type? It appears that there are already multiple ideas floating around. Much of the media available for ninjas usually grants each their own unique flavor: Ninja Scroll, Naruto, etc.
I would either make 1) multiple archetype classes to cover several ninja types, 2) an extensive tree-like sub-system of abilities (similar to d20 Modern class abilities), or 3) an extensive feat tree that could be used to "specialize" a relatively generic ninja class. (...or a combination of all of the above! ;D )
I'm off to think about the specifics!
Sorry! No disrespect was intended. Apparently, I'm "ninjaphobic"; I should have paid more attention to the beginning of the thread.
My preferences tend toward a base class with prestige classes handling the specialized ninja task. That was what I did with my shinobi variant. The player in my AoW game wanted a mystical ninja, so I made a shinobi mage presitge class.
That said, I do like the idea of jutsu maneuvers. I have toyed with a psionic variant, using the psionic powers to represent ki powers. That may not be the route to go here, but it is a nice alternate to spellcasting.
So far, the ideas tossed around here are interesting.
Again, I'm just glad that this thread seems to have Ninja Master Mike McArtor's approval thus far.
Again folks, I appreciate all the feedback. The main goals isn't just to create a Ninja (though that is exactly the idea that started this thread), but preferrably to make an OGL base class that woulnd't be just an Asian-flavored class. Thus a more Assassin-like class has been created.
It still serves as a good basis for a Ninja, going into more traditional Ninja or Assassin abilities is one of the things the 'Tradition Secrets' will accomplish.
Each Tradition will, once finished have something like 4-6 abilites to choose from that will only be available to those of that tradition. An example of a Tradition might be a Minkai-based Ninja clan, whose Tradition Secrets might include Skill Mastery, Poison Mastery (an idea of mine...more on this later), Silencing Strike, Opportunist, Improved Unarmed Damage (1d8), and Improved Unarmed Damage (1d10).
Or it might be a Riddleport based society who ruthlessly pursues the secrets of the CypherGate. Tradition Secrets might include: Slippery Mind, Frightful Presence, Secret Lore (basically Bardic Lore, but for CypherGate and Thassilonian related stuff only), Possibly even some implemented Lore stuff like the Loremaster PrC.
These are not perfect examples. I just wanted everyone to get an idea of how I intend for Tradition Secrets to work.
Some being just combat based, like the 'Falling Leaf' style that Eyebite mentioned is perfect too. A very militant tradition would certainly have something just like that. With Eyebite's permission, I might seek to use that for one of the traditions as a set of Secrets.
Sample Traditon: The Black Company
The Black Company is a mercenary organization that operates in the marchlands of Cheliax and Andoran. In addition to providing mercenary soldiers to the highest bidder, Beskarl the Black, leader of the organization, has darker services he offers. A small, select number of the Black Company is trained to function as Assassins, eliminating targets contracted through the secretive channels Beskarl uses.
Tradition Secrets:
1) Opportunist (as the Rogue Special Ability)
2) Versatile Strike[Ex]: Through extensive training, a Black Company Assassin can choose to have their Unarmed Damage do either Slashing or Piercing damage as well as bludgeoning.
3) Increased Unarmed Damage (1d6)
4) Increased Unarmed Damage (1d8)
5) Impairing Blow[Ex]: During a Sneak Attack, an Assassin can choose to substitute Sneak Attack dice for Ability Damage to their opponents Strength, Dexterity or Constitution scores. This can be done in any combination. Each dice of Sneak attack damage so exchanged does 1 point of ability damage (See Soulknife and 'Knife to the Soul' for comparison).
OOH! Great thread!
I'm of the opinion that there should be multiple ninja classes. (Bet that wasn't popular! ;D )
Why just have one ninja type? It appears that there are already multiple ideas floating around. Much of the media available for ninjas usually grants each their own unique flavor: Ninja Scroll, Naruto, etc.
I would either make 1) multiple archetype classes to cover several ninja types, 2) an extensive tree-like sub-system of abilities (similar to d20 Modern class abilities), or 3) an extensive feat tree that could be used to "specialize" a relatively generic ninja class. (...or a combination of all of the above! ;D )
I'm off to think about the specifics!
Drop some ideas, build your own, etc!
This thread is to try and get as much Ninja/Assassin stuff out there to everyone. I am personally trying to create an OGL Ninja/Assassin class. That alone restricts what I can do to a pretty great degree. I would already have a perfect class set up if I was doing non-OGL, but that is the task I set for myself. I want an assassin/Ninja for Golarion, thus I want it to be OGL.
Be my guest. :)
With Eyebite's permission, I might seek to use that for one of the traditions as a set of Secrets.
Thanks Eyebite. I will definately do so. Perhaps I might finds some way to work an element of your name into it.
btw, before anyone else catches me on it. The Black Company progression of Tradition Secrets would require first taking one of the Increased Unarmed Damage features before taking the other.
Chiming in late, because I am forced to admit that I stopped reading for a while when we ended up with 6 skill points, fighter BAB, spells, sneak attack, and monk abilities to boot... now we're back into real possibilities, with some really excellent ideas floating around, so I thougt I'd add:
Although the "use rogue" people somewhat miss the point, their advice isn't totally bogus--maybe we can start with rogue, and then think in terms of variant class features until we end up with a new base class (actually, the poster who proposed modifying the bard was on the right track, IMO).
Bards get medium BAB, two good saves, 6 skill points, spells, and bardic music. From there:
1. Trade armor and shield proficiency and ability to cast armored spells for monk AC bonuses.
2. Trade the "pick one additional weapon" to "plus kama, short sword, shuriken, etc."
3. Trade bardic music for equivalent "per day" ninja iconic abilities: all the sudden strike, stealthy movement, unarmed strike stuff can be "ninja abilities" gained at equivalent levels, useable a total of 1/day per class level. Yasha's "traditions" fit in really nicely here.
4. Keep the skill points.
5. Trade the spells list for more ninja-appropriate ones, and otherwise retain (maybe make them Wis-based instead of Cha-based, to avoid introducing another needed high stat).
In this manner, hopefully we can get a ninja class that retains a unique "ninja" flavor, but above all is balanced with the PH classes--which is exceptionally hard to do when starting from scratch.
his is the BAB altered, otherwise unchanged version.
Spoiler:
Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.BAB: Average, Like Cleric
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will1: Sneak Attack +1d6, AC Bonus (Like a Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Unarmed Strike (1d6)
3: Uncanny Dodge, Poison Use.
4: Fast Movement +10ft.
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: AC Bonus +1
9: Unarmed Strike (1d8)
10: Sneak Attack +3d6
11: Rapid Stalking (Charge), Tradition Secret
12: Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Unarmed Strike (1d10)
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Improved Evasion
15: Hide in Plain sight, Tradition Secret
16: AC Bonus +2
17: Rapid Stalking (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6,
19: Tradition Secret
20: Unarmed Strike (2d6), Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Spells: Progression as a Ranger/Paladin, using the Assassin Spell list
Int-based Memorization casting.
This is another altered/revised version
Spoiler:Spoiler:Hit Dice: d6
Weapon/Armor: Either:Simple Weapons and 2 Martial weapons of choice or
if using Weapon Groups: Basic Weapons + 2 groups.
Armor: None.Skill Points: 6+int mod. (6+int mod. x4 at first level)
Class Skills: Balance, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Disguise, Escape Artist, Forgery, Gather Information, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge: Local, Knowledge: Nobility and Royalty, Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Perform, Profession, Search, Sense Motive, Sleight of Hand, Spot, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.BAB: Average, Like Cleric
Saves: Good Reflex, Poor Fortitude and Will1: Sneak Attack +1d6, AC Bonus (Like a Monk), Trapfinding.
2: Improved Unarmed Strike feat
3: Uncanny Dodge, Poison Use.
4: Fast Movement +10ft, Acrobatics +2
5: Rapid Stalking (Full-Move)
6: Evasion, Sneak Attack +2d6
7: Death Attack (3 rounds study, Fort DC = 1/2 Class level + Int mod.)
8: AC Bonus +1
9:
10: Sneak Attack +3d6, Tradition Secret
11: Rapid Stalking (Charge), Acrobatics +4
12: Improved Uncanny Dodge
13: Improved Evasion
14: Sneak Attack +4d6, Tradition Secret
15: Hide in Plain sight
16: AC Bonus +2
17: Rapid Stalking (Run)
18: Sneak Attack +5d6, Tradition Secret
19: Acrobatics +6
20: Impromptu Death Attack 1/day
Spells: Progression as a Ranger/Paladin, using the Assassin Spell list
Cha or Wis-based Memorization casting.
After this, please view and let me know which version is better liked. I am going to review a few things too.
Tradition Secrets will definately include Skill Mastery, certain traditions perhaps can increase their Unarmed Damage, etc. Start dropping some ideas for those too if you will please.
Ok, no more Hashshashin segways (wow, that's an odd image), just a few design related questions/comments:
1. Nice work so far!
2. Why no dead levels?
I know that some players perceive dead levels as being no fun, but they do provide strong reasons for multiclassing. I know some classes suffer more from dead levels (Fighter) than others (Wizard).
3. I think the class, as writen the quoted text, has too much going for it. It combines several of the best features of three base classes AND a prestige class.
It looks like we've got four major class features: Movement related increases, Stealth related abilities, Killing (via Sneak and Death Attack) and Spell progression. Maybe something where the athletic bits (acrobatics, fast movement, uncanny dodge) are keep as default class abilities, and then the player is presented with the option of advancing two of the other three class features.
I'm thinking something along the lines of the old designer's adage of "good, fast, or cheap, pick two"." In this case, maybe something like "deadly, stealthy, supernatural"
As long as we're going for something that isn't overly asian flavored (nothing wrong with the concept, but I believe culture equals prestigue class, not core), and we're not going back to the full BAB nonesense I'm interested in dropping a few ideas.
Yasha...I realy like Versatile Strike. Cool theme without being too overpowering.
For Impairing Blow I would drop the option to do Con damage. There are probably plenty of valid arguments against me here, but to me Con is one of the most important stats, especialy when we're talking about damaging it.
As for weapon proficiency, I never liked the idea of a character using one of the various ninja classes walking arround with wakizashi, kama, sais, and a whole slew of other "let me guess, your a ninja?" style weapons. To my understanding the ninja were/are about stealth and infiltration, not galivanting about in pajamas decked out with toys, sticking out like sore thumbs covered in lit magnezium...
What I would do is give them simple and martial weapon prof, or simple and a number of martial weapons they could choose from, plus the following.
Improvisational Weaponry: Masters at both offensive and defensive combat in situations where conventional weapons are unavailable, Golarian ninja clans have adopted the practice of using many every day items to injure and kill their opponents. Compare any physical item to the following list to work out it's weapon qualities. DM discression is strongly recomended here.
Material
brittle - lower damage by one step, a damage die that comes up as either max or min indicates the weapon has broken and it's damage is decreased a further step.
functional - no modification
sturdy - increase damage by one step, lower user's initiative by two
Size
small - lower damage by one step, finessable
medium - no modification
large - increase damage by one step, requires two hands to use
Examples
Brittle items include anyting made of glass or pottery, such as bottles, flagons (generaly made of softer metals), or a hand ful of hay used to lash an opponent.
Functional would be anything made of wood, or possibly stone. Brooms, buckets, rocks, bricks, or planks.
Sturdy items are generaly metal, or other unusualy hard materials such as magically treated wood. Lead pipes, cooking pots, and lead shot would all be good examples.
Small items are generaly something easily held in one hand. Rocks, botles, a six foot length of chair or rope would all be appropriate for human sized ninja.
Medium items are something comfortably held in two hands such as a wooden plank, a broom or rake, a ten foot length of chain or rope.
Large items are those which are liftable by the character but generaly wouldn't appear to be practicle weapons, such as a fifteen foot pole, a ten foot wooden bench, an unhindged door.
p.s. I'll come back through when I'm a little more myself and check for bad spelling errors and make sure it all makes sense, but at the moment my headache and sobriety will be excuse enough for me to be very lazy with the whole writing thing...
I am beginning to like the tradition secrets idea more and more. This would allow for a "bodyguard" tradition designed around protecting nobles while appearing as coachmen and servants instead of obvious guards.
Currently I am favoring Matthew's design. Magic can augment class abilities a great deal, depending on the spell list.
Here is a class ability I gave my Shinobi variant of the CAdv Ninja.
Truth and Falsehood (Ex): Shinobi are extremely adept at alternating truth and falsehood. They develop a deep and intimate knowledge of the power of intention, enabling them to both recognize and manipulate intent with uncanny skill. At 3rd level, the shinobi receives a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 9th level, and +6 at 15th level.
The following is an option for a Tradition Secret.
Nondescript (Ex): A "ninja" can pass without notice in a crowd or an area filled with other creatures and can effectively hide in a crowd as if hiding in shadows. Indeed a "ninja" is often overlooked entirely by guards and searchers when at least 10 other creatures are present. Using this ability requires a successful Disguise check opposed by the watcher’s Spot check.
Even if the Spot check succeeds, watchers see the "ninja" but don’t regard him as worth noticing – they are not immediately suspicious. Normally a failed Disguise check makes others suspicious of the disguised person’s activities or appearance. With the nondescript ability, only unusual actions, such as combat, thievery, spellcasting, and so forth, are likely to trigger suspicion in the watchers.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Ok, now that I know what tradition secrets are, let me toss out a trio.
Tradition of the mystic:
This tradition allows the shinobi to master greater feats of magic than his normal kin.
1st: Insightful casting. The Shinobi may infuse his spells with qi, making them harder to resist. He may increase the effective level of his spells by a modifier not to exceed his Wisdom bonus. Every level of increase inflicts 1 point of subdual damage, as he fuels the spell with his onw life force. This may be done 3 times a day.
2nd: Diversified knowlege. The Mystic may add a wizard/sorcerer spell to his spells known. The spell must be of a level he may cast, and functions as a ninja spell of the same level.
3rd Phoenix rising. The Mystic can feed a spell with his own life force. As a free action, the mystic may choose to maximize a spell without increasing its level. The mystic suffers 1 point of constitution burn (see XPH) when he uses this ability. He may use this at will. The ninja may burn all of his constitution in one shot. If he does the spell is enlarged, empowered, and maximised, but the ninja may not be raised or ressurected, as his soul has powered the spell.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Rather than death attack/improvised death attack why not have that be a set of traditions.
1st: Death attack
2nd: impromptu death attack
3rd: If the victim dies from your death attack, it rises one round later as a shadow under your command. YOu may command it for a number of days equal to your ninja level.
4th (replacting the 20th level capstone) As the 3rd, except when the time lapses the victim's soul is obliterated, making resurrection impossible short of a wish.
Not a full list of them. But I thought this would be pretty useful.
It's somewhat similar to the Island of Blades stance from The book of 9 Swords.
Tradition Secrets
1. Cruel Intent: A Ninja is always counted as flanking so long as another Ally in melee threatens the same enemy.
Thanks for a terrific thread, Yasha!!
Keep in mind that the following has been recently inspired by watching the movie: The Scarlet Pimpernel ("They seek him here, they seek him there. Those Frenchies seek him everywhere. Is he in heaven, or is he in Hell, the Scarlet Pimpernel?")
I think whereever there's widespread oppression, I can see a "ninja" class as a viable alternative to playing just a rogue, or multiclassed Frankenstien's monster. Whatever it's called has always found root in many cultures where you have an underdog, and so I think the first aspect people should overcome is the term itself.
As far as setting it in Pathfinder, as such, perhaps calling it "ninja" will solve the immediate problem, but I think there could be region-specific terms in Golarion.
In the upcoming CotCT, I got the feel that Korvosa, using the Hellknights, *might* have an iron heel upon various non-humans, Shoanti, and Varisians. The setting might be ripe for an emerging class, or prestige class for those that operate in hopes of overthrowing the yoke, without drawing attention to how it's done or who's doing it.
I think in this case that *poison* itself wouldn't be an essential, but stealth and trickery would be. I think as a compromise, that poison could be included at first level, but I've always liked the idea of trading out any ability from any class (like, for example, those swapping familiars for other cool goodies).
I enjoy the first of the two options, that you list, Yasha. I like the idea of poison being included at first level, and that the array of poison types increase at every level. Not only do *Ninjas* learn increasing potencies of poison, but they also learn methods of exposure, and types of poison: those that debilitate, those that injure and/ or kill, those that induce a death-like state, those that act like spells such as *Suggestion* *Charm Person* *Zone of Truth*, those that cause sleep, etc.
I borrow this from the concept of the Bard from Dark Sun.
Another factor I like would be the concept of negating penalties for use of improvised weapons. In this scenario, one wouldn't suspect an unarmed *peasant* from an expertly executed murder if you're looking for one wielding a weapon.
I'd also add as a class ability the SU ability to Charm Person after a certain level, after maybe 3rd or 6th. When needing to get inside a home, out of the city gates, talk to the prisoner, etc., perhaps adding an increasing bonus on opposed CHA checks when trying to convince targets to do tasks they wouldn't ordinarily do.
I like the idea of *always* taking a 10 during stressful moments to craft a disguise, bluff, or use of balance.
I also see the possibility of gaining an increasing immunity to poisons as they advance. Either a general, ever-increasing bonus to poison, or the option of selecting a *type* of poison that the character gains complete immunity to as they go up levels.
I also see *Ninjas* gaining not only skill with poisons, but also either in trap"making" and/ or crafting alchemical smoke and mirror devices ranging from caltrops to Ninja Smoke or tanglefoot bags.
Chiming in late, because I am forced to admit that I stopped reading for a while when we ended up with 6 skill points, fighter BAB, spells, sneak attack, and monk abilities to boot... now we're back into real possibilities, with some really excellent ideas floating around, so I thougt I'd add:
Although the "use rogue" people somewhat miss the point, their advice isn't totally bogus--maybe we can start with rogue, and then think in terms of variant class features until we end up with a new base class (actually, the poster who proposed modifying the bard was on the right track, IMO).
Bards get medium BAB, two good saves, 6 skill points, spells, and bardic music. From there:
1. Trade armor and shield proficiency and ability to cast armored spells for monk AC bonuses.
2. Trade the "pick one additional weapon" to "plus kama, short sword, shuriken, etc."
3. Trade bardic music for equivalent "per day" ninja iconic abilities: all the sudden strike, stealthy movement, unarmed strike stuff can be "ninja abilities" gained at equivalent levels, useable a total of 1/day per class level. Yasha's "traditions" fit in really nicely here.
4. Keep the skill points.
5. Trade the spells list for more ninja-appropriate ones, and otherwise retain (maybe make them Wis-based instead of Cha-based, to avoid introducing another needed high stat).
In this manner, hopefully we can get a ninja class that retains a unique "ninja" flavor, but above all is balanced with the PH classes--which is exceptionally hard to do when starting from scratch.
Kith, allow me to say that I love you. To be perfectly honest, when I started this thread, I had no intention of actually writing a Ninja or Assassin class at all. I wanted just to create a discussion thread about what the thoughts and ideas about a class of this sort (especially an OGL version, as might appear in Golarion) might look like. After, well I think less than a day, I started building the class on a whim just to see what would happen.
The Bard comparison is a great one Kith. There have been many different suggestions jumping forward as this has progressed. I originally had some dead levels, then some people suggested I move things around. I thought that was a good idea, so I tried it.
I am beginning to like the tradition secrets idea more and more. This would allow for a "bodyguard" tradition designed around protecting nobles while appearing as coachmen and servants instead of obvious guards.
Currently I am favoring Matthew's design. Magic can augment class abilities a great deal, depending on the spell list.
Here is a class ability I gave my Shinobi variant of the CAdv Ninja.
Truth and Falsehood (Ex): Shinobi are extremely adept at alternating truth and falsehood. They develop a deep and intimate knowledge of the power of intention, enabling them to both recognize and manipulate intent with uncanny skill. At 3rd level, the shinobi receives a +2 bonus on all Bluff and Sense Motive checks. This bonus increases to +4 at 9th level, and +6 at 15th level.
The following is an option for a Tradition Secret.
Nondescript (Ex): A "ninja" can pass without notice in a crowd or an area filled with other creatures and can effectively hide in a crowd as if hiding in shadows. Indeed a "ninja" is often overlooked entirely by guards and searchers when at least 10 other creatures are present. Using this ability requires a successful Disguise check opposed by the watcher’s Spot check.
Even if the Spot check succeeds, watchers see the "ninja" but don’t regard him as worth noticing – they are not immediately suspicious. Normally a failed Disguise check makes others suspicious of the disguised person’s activities or appearance. With the nondescript ability, only unusual actions, such as combat, thievery, spellcasting, and so forth, are likely to trigger suspicion in the watchers.
When the whole idea for Tradition Secrets was put forward, that is exactly what I loved about it so much. It lets any DM take the class and make a Tradition set for it and a set or 3-5 abilities to choose from and the class right there takes on a whole new flavor. The Tradition itself decides the flavor of the abilities tied to it.
Yojimbo style bodyguard - simple enough
Spy type - easy
Assassin - again easy
I like that it can be as simple or as complicated as the DMs involved want it to be with the Tradition Secrets.
Not a full list of them. But I thought this would be pretty useful.
It's somewhat similar to the Island of Blades stance from The book of 9 Swords.
Tradition Secrets
1. Cruel Intent: A Ninja is always counted as flanking so long as another Ally in melee threatens the same enemy.
Nice.
Thanks for a terrific thread, Yasha!!
In the upcoming CotCT, I got the feel that Korvosa, using the Hellknights, *might* have an iron heel upon various non-humans, Shoanti, and Varisians.I think in this case that *poison* itself wouldn't be an essential, but stealth and trickery would be. I think as a compromise, that poison could be included at first level, but I've always liked the idea of trading out any ability from any class (like, for example, those swapping familiars for other cool goodies).
I enjoy the first of the two options, that you list, Yasha. I like the idea of poison being included at first level, and that the array of poison types increase at every level. Not only do *Ninjas* learn increasing potencies of poison, but they also learn methods of exposure, and types of poison: those that debilitate, those that injure and/ or kill, those that induce a death-like state, those that act like spells such as *Suggestion* *Charm Person* *Zone of Truth*, those that cause sleep, etc.
I borrow this from the concept of the Bard from Dark Sun.
Even though the entirety of the quote didn't come through DarkArt, I would like to address some of these questions, suggestions and generally evil ideas (^_^).
As for being able to take 10 on various skills, I think Skill Mastery will be available for a good deal of the Traditions as a Tradition Secret. Can't really make it available earlier than that as that would give an unusual advantage over Rogues.
A Poison Immunity secret and a Poison Mastery secret are on my list of things to do. Poison Immunity is relatively simple, but my list of things to do is quite long at the moment.
Poison Mastery, I see a need for because Poison becomes so useless after certain levels. Not a huge bonus of course, but something like a +2 to all Poison DC's when used by someone with that tradition secret.
Btw, anyone with extensive experience with poisons at higher levels, please chime in here. I'd love some feedback and suggestions on what a good bonus for this would be.
The Charm stuff could be from an alternate spell list. We've already toyed with the idea of doing differing spell lists for differing traditions perhaps.
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Might I get in a word? This is an unpopular sentiment I know, but I think it needs saying. Classes should be non-culture specific. Nothing stinks so much as having loads and loads classes, but because of your race and region you can only pick three of them. Yuck.
Now I like the idea of a ninja--but I think it should be handled very much like other "culturally specific" classes--the barbarian, the druid, the paladin. Nobody freaks out if the paladin isn't french or if the druid isn't celtic or if the barbarian isn't germanic. Why? Because it's a fantasy setting and while the flavor is drawn from real sources, it's broadened and extended to every culture. That's why people can wear armor and use weapons that in our world stem from totally different regions and eras centuries apart. But flavor is what's important. Strange people see that everywhere but with asian stuff. You have a drow ninja with a crossbow and people want to die. You have a drow druid with a crossbow and no one bats an eye.
Part of why I really like the Complete book takes on samurai, ninjas and all, is that in changing them from the "japanese" samurai or ninja they become something that you can use in a fantasy game--because the are different. They should be. Honestly real druids don't turn into seagulls. Does that make the druid a bad class?
So yeah I like the idea of a ninja, but it'd be nice to see it be a whole setting thing--not a "you can be this, but only if you're from Minkai thing".
If there is something that is that specific to a region or a race, then it really should be a Prestige Class. The requirements should be next to nil to get it--just that you come from the right place and are part of the right organization. But I'd prefer to keep the classes something that anyone can play.
Wow! you caught my sentiment exactly. One of my biggest gripes with 3.5 was the proliferation of "core" classes, none of which seemed very "core" to me. The ninja never felt like it should be a core class, as it borrowed abilities from too many other classes - monk & rogue, plus I guess ranger (role wise) to a lesser degree.
The prestige class dynamic was a brilliant idea, and a ninja would make a great 10 level prestige. Have the abilities dovetail nicely with monk or rogue, and make those the easiest paths of entry, and.... viola! ninja-ey goodness for the whole family.
Poison Mastery, I see a need for because Poison becomes so useless after certain levels. Not a huge bonus of course, but something like a +2 to all Poison DC's when used by someone with that tradition secret.
Btw, anyone with extensive experience with poisons at higher levels, please chime in here. I'd love some feedback and...
Well I was thinking of something similar to the Poison Immunity and Poison Mastery.
This is what I pulled together, Poison Immunity Aside.
Poison Potency (Requires Craft Poison 15 Ranks)- The Ninja has mastered the art of crafting and using Poison. Any Poison prepared by the Ninja has an increased DC by +2.
Poison Acellerator (Requires Craft Poison 15 Ranks) - The Ninja has mastered the Alchemical and herbal knowledge of poisons to accelerate the chemical reactions. A poison that has been crafted and prepared by the Ninja takes immediate effect 1d4 rounds after the Initial Damage from a poison has been dealt. The victim still may make a Fortitude Save to avoid this Secondary Damage.
As for Poisons at higher levels, they do eventually become pretty useless, since the non-spell type of poisons have set DCs, it becomes increasingly unlikely that enemies will fail their fortitude saves. But it's still useful for other activities outside of main combatants. And unfortunately theres no other way to increase the DCs of Poisons that a player could use since when monsters use it, it goes off their HD, and also volume of poison used by that monster increases the DC. But a player is restricted to only being able to apply 1 use of a poison to a weapon or object.
Theres also plenty of poisons that are in other WotC books that a GM could use at their discretion.
While the new base class looks very nice, I'd be inclined to do as was suggested in another thread and make the ninja a rogue variant. Instead of getting trapfinding, he'd get Improved Unarmed Strike, dealing the standard 1d3 points of lethal damage. Then, whenever the rogue would normally get Trap Sense, the damage die of his unarmed strike would improve by one category; 1d4 at 3rd level, 1d6 at 6th, 1d8at 9th, 1d10 at 12th, 2d6 at 15th, maxing out at 2d8 at 18th level. It's not as good as a monk's progression, but I think it works. I'd also throw in some differing weapon proficiencies such as some, but not all, the monk weapons.
Tradition Secret -
Deadly Precision - You may re-roll any die up to your Dexterity Modifier with a result of 1 for Sneak Attack Damage only. The second roll stands no matter the result.
Example: A Ninja with 3d6 Sneak Attack and a Dex Score of 13 (Mod of 1) hits a Target that was denied it's Dex. The Ninja rolls a 4, 1, an another 1. He may re-roll 1d6, the result of the re-roll stands no matter the result.