As of the most recent chat, something strange has happened with Golarion. Apparently the Great Old Ones are schedualed to visit. Not sure how I feel about this. I guess it's mainly how it's handled.
Up till now D&D has never really crossed the line to be a mythos product. They've claimed inspiration and introduced realms like the Far Realm and...that one place in Eberron. But these things have never BEEN mythos before. Some of what I've read seems to imply that these beings are the very same beings from Lovecraft Earth. I don't know if this isn't a little too crossovery for my tastes. It's mentioned that Cthulhu won't show up because he's obviously on earth, but other planet hopping ones can and will show up. Hmm...I'm not sure that that doesn't sound like Golarion is a planet out in space we could get to in a space ship. Not sure I like the idea of Captain Kirk landing in Cheliax. Then again that's what the photonic death ray cannons on the Red Planet are poised to prevent I gather.
On the other hand there have been other comments that might indicate that things are being taken in a more delicate manner, a bit more like the path D&D has been treading. There have been comments to the effect that the mythos creatures will be adapted to Golarion and great pains will be taken to fit them in in such a way that they feel like they belong. It's also been said they will be dealt with much the same way as some of the cryptozoological creatures. That would weird me out a lot less. Also there's an interesting thing--Golarion has a "Far Realm" already in canon. There is a realm, beyond the planes, that is home to strange and alien things (specifically shining children, scarlet walkers, inverted giants and the Oliphaunt of Jandelay)which, according to rumors may have played a major role in the fall of Thassilon.
So yeah, it could go either way. I love the mythos, and would like to see creatures like that in the game--I just am worried a bit if it muddles the lines between fictional worlds too much to have it ported straight in. Eeech. I dunno.
The old timey pulp authors used to share the cthulhu mythos with each other. Lovecraft let others play with his toys pretty freely if I remember right. So I don't mind if these modern writers at the Paizo bullpen take a crack at the Lovecraft horrors. I think it could be really cool.
Chaosium has the license for using the copyrighted work of H. P. Lovecraft and some of his literary successors, so I doubt that we'll see a wholesale adoption of Lovecraftian creatures in Golarion. On the other hand, I'm looking forward to seeing more of Lovecraft's thematic elements surface in the setting.
But some of us awake in the night with strange phantasms of enchanted hills and gardens, of fountains that sing in the sun, of golden cliffs overhanging murmuring seas, of plains that stretch down to sleeping cities of bronze and stone, and of shadowy companies of heroes that ride caparisoned white horses along the edges of thick forests; and then we know that we have looked back through the ivory gates into that world of wonder which was ours before we were wise and unhappy. - H.P. Lovecraft "Celephaïs"
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The Lovecraftian elements in Golarion are going to be treated in the same way monsters and elements from mythology are treated. Asmodeus, Lamashtu, medusae, zombies, vampires, unicorns, dragons, etc. were all lifted from sources like these and put into D&D. In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil. In Pathfinder 3 we've got a lake monster that would do Nessie or Ogopogo proud.
Likewise, the Lovecraftian elements will, I hope, feel like a natural addition to the world. The first one we embrace is the hound of Tindalos (which is actually from an old Frank Belknap Long story) in Pathfinder 4. In a sidebar & in the foreword, I explain my Lovecraft in D&D theory a little: the mythos is a part of Golarion, but not an overwhelming part. Not all of the Lovecrafting creatures will be showing up; only the ones who could logically show up on Golarion will. Golarion is not Earth, and therefore themes and creatures tied to Earth won't appear in Golarion. This includes Cthulhu himself, since he's imprisoned under the sea.
Yet other members of the club are noted dimension travelers (like the hounds) or live in the depths of outer space and can (and have) visit all manner of worlds in the universe. These are the ones who may be showing up now and then in Golarion.
In any event, Lovecraft is a LOT more present in D&D than a lot of people think. Sure, aboleths and mind flayers are obvious Lovecraftian homages, as are gods like Tharizdun and the Elder Elemental Eye. But there's more. The Underdark is in some part inspired by the Underworld of Earth's Dreamlands, I suspect (detailed most heavilly in Lovecraft's "The Dream Quest of Unknown Kadath"). Evil books that bring about bad things have been in D&D from the start also (Demonomicon, anyone?). And remember those tougher ghouls we know as ghasts? It would appear that Lovecraft invented them as well. At the very least, he was the one who came up with them as "tougher ghouls."
So yeah... Lovecraft's always been a part of D&D. By embracing that and admitting it, Golarion's hoping to tap even more into the classic tradition of the game.
As for our relationship with Chaosium: we've been in contact with them about including Lovecraftian elements in the game, and have their blessing (and certainly mention them in Pathfinder or whenever we use the elements as the best place to go for more). Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu Game is one of the oldest RPGs out there... it might even be the oldest one in print that's still being published by the company that invented it, and that's no small claim. I can't recommend their products enough, though, for anyone who's interested in Lovecraft or in horror gaming; they really are the best in the business at it!
Hmm...I'm not sure that that doesn't sound like Golarion is a planet out in space we could get to in a space ship. Not sure I like the idea of Captain Kirk landing in Cheliax.
Golarion doesn't have to be in the same universe as Earth in order for the Mythos critters to show up. They go wherever they please, and don't care at all whether or not it's possible to go there.
In Pathfinder 1 we took the Jersey Devil and turned it into the Sandpoint Devil....Not all of the Lovecrafting creatures will be showing up; only the ones who could logically show up on Golarion will. Golarion is not Earth, and therefore themes and creatures tied to Earth won't appear in Golarion. This includes Cthulhu himself, since he's imprisoned under the sea....
See that's the part that hit me a little weird! The Jersey Devil is tied to Earth (hence the Jersey) but the creature in Pathfinder isn't THE Jersey Devil--it's a new creation based on lore (ditto with Lamashtu and Asmodeus I'm assuming). They are based on old religious lore, and have kept the name but are in setting something new and adapted. Personally I'd feel better if Cthuhlu WAS in Golarion--slumbering under their ocean. Then there would be a clear distinction between Golarion's Cthuhlu and Earth's Cthuhlu--one as an inspiration for the other, but the two being different creatures.
I still don't think I'm voicing it adequately. I dunno. It's like if Lamashtu was supposed to actually be THE Lamashtu from Babylonian lore and in her description it describes her exodus from "a distant Material Plane where her worshippers the Babylonians, had forgotten her". That would make me die a little.
I still don't think I'm explaining myself clearly, but yeah. I guess I don't have any problem with Lovecraft-like elements in the game, or creatures named after and styled after creatures from his stories--it's when things like the Cthuhlu reference come up, where it sounds like the stories are happening in the same setting, that I boggle a little and it starts to get a little weird.
Okay...here's a good one--assume that an investigator from 1920's England decides the world is sick and bargains with the night gaunts to transport Big Ben, stuffed full of his cultists, into the middle of Riddleport. I don't want that to be on the table. Earth and Golarion are two different settings, or are they? If it's the same Cthuhlu in both settings, I guess they are the same--well at least fictional mythos Earth is. Not sure how I feel about that.
Golarion doesn't have to be in the same universe as Earth in order for the Mythos critters to show up. They go wherever they please, and don't care at all whether or not it's possible to go there.
Yeah but they are the same creatures, and that's odd. Like I run into one of the Dark Spawn of Shubb Niggurath while I'm fighting in the trenches of World War I. Being a sneaky freak with nerves of steel wrought from facing German machine guns all day I take a peice of colored chalk from my pocket...commando crawl over to the big critter and draw "Killroy Was Here" on his blubbery flank and then flee. Bllwuurp! It disappears back beyond time and reappears in Golarion.
Look! There on it's hide it says my message! Whee!
Or if you look through the guts of a Hunting Horror and find the hubcap from a Ford.
There's hopping universes which is fine--then there's hopping campaign settings which is...I dunno, I think it's a little tacky. It's like seeing an X-Wing show up due to a hyperspace jump malfunction. It's not just a matter of showing up in another "universe" it's a whole 'nuther setting.
Or C'thulhu might just be a member of a race of octopus headed juggernauts.
That's certainly what I get from Lovecraft. Each Great Old One was a paragon of an alien race, driven mad and immortal by great unknowable truths. I can't remember Cthuhlu's race, but they're named--and a great host of them slumber in R'lyeh with him.
EDIT: They're called Star Spawn of Cthuhlu.
In any event, Lovecraft is a LOT more present in D&D than a lot of people think.
I just wanted to point out that the Lovecraft mythos were included in the first printing of Deities and Demigods, but were removed in subsequent printings for legal reasons. So, clearly Lovecraft was an important enough influence on D&D to include the mythos in one of the first core AD&D books.
I'm thrilled by Eric Mona's comments in his interview with Kobold Quarterly that he wants the Pathfinder setting to reflect the literary influences that made D&D, such as Robert Howard, H.P. Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith. In my opinion you can NEVER have enough eldritch horrors, insane cultists, or power-mad wizards meddling with "secrets man was not meant to know."
As for Hounds of Tindalos... well I'll get my players started on constructing spherical rooms now, because they aren't going to want to be in rooms with corners once Pathfinder 4 arrives.
Cthulhu Mythos References+Pathfinder=YES! YES! YES!
I really like the way things are looking for Pathfinder. I'm definitely getting the rest of the AP for Christmas (just finally got started with Burnt Offerings recently), and I'll have to get the campaign book next year.
You guys really know how to flesh out a setting.
Its not more strange to me than Loki and Odin showing up in Newhon in the Fafhrd and Mouser books. Neither one was suppose to be part of the pantheon of that world, but they could find Newhon's "dimension" after wandering a bit, or Fafhrd and Mouser traveling to Earth in its past. Neither of these things really made Newhon feel less like "itself" to me.
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Okay...here's a good one--assume that an investigator from 1920's England decides the world is sick and bargains with the night gaunts to transport Big Ben, stuffed full of his cultists, into the middle of Riddleport. I don't want that to be on the table. Earth and Golarion are two different settings, or are they? If it's the same...
Actually, that would be perfectly in line with the sort of thing that the pulp fiction writers of the 20's and 30's would do, from what I understand. Aren't a few of the heroes of the Planet Stories books time/spaced misplaced?
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Creative Director
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Quibble: Dreamlands ghasts are not stronger ghouls. They are a completely separate and distinct race.
Other than that, various traveling mythos critters would be fun to see in Golarion.
Fair enough... but ghasts and ghouls DO have a pretty integrated society, and do pretty much fit the same niche.
Um, they don't even inhabit the same regions of the Underworld... and they see each other as food... n.n;
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Kobold Press
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Assume that an investigator from 1920's England decides the world is sick and bargains with the night gaunts to transport Big Ben, stuffed full of his cultists, into the middle of Riddleport. I don't want that to be on the table. Earth and Golarion are two different settings, or are they? If it's the same...Actually, that would be perfectly in line with the sort of thing that the pulp fiction writers of the 20's and 30's would do, from what I understand. Aren't a few of the heroes of the Planet Stories books time/spaced misplaced?
Ok, some degree of this is my fault (or to my credit), since I wrote the Thassilonian history and made up the shining ones, scarlet walkers, and Oliphaunt as deliberately Mythos-like references. And things in that vein appear in Pathfinder 4 (eg, the Hounds). It's a flavoring rather than the meat of the adventure, though.
I'm not a Paizo staffer, but I think I understand their direction for the setting pretty well. I'd argue that UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES would a 1920s investigator be on the table as something that would EVER show up in Golarion. It's just not... credible in a fantasy setting. It's a cheeseball crossover move from bad anime. It's really not the way D&D fantasy works these days, not from WotC, not from Paizo, not from me.
Cthulhoid monstrosities are clearly part of the D&D bloodline. Character crossovers from Earth are part of the Gygax/1E era D&D, but have fallen out of favor. I just can't see the Paizo gang going down that road. If I'm wrong, I'm sure they'll tell me.
Aww, man...if you're from earth, you can't have any fun.
You're stuck, like Dark Sun. Earth must be a dimensional prison planet.
Not everybody.... John Carter got out.
So did Dorothy and Toto.
But, but, but....
...Aww, nevermind.
Well, if you like that sort of thing, you could always run a game in which some D20 Modern PCs get themselves stranded on Golarion...
Me? No, no. I love me my Cthuhlu mythos like crazy. It's just merging it with Pathfinder seems really awful to me. I love the whole "outer realm beyond the planes thing". It's just making Pathfinder and actual set-in-the-real-world Cthuhlu the same setting really kind of bothers me. I dunno. I'll support it if that's what the setting turns into, but uuugh...
Not my favorite thing ever.
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As for Hounds of Tindalos... well I'll get my players started on constructing spherical rooms now, because they aren't going to want to be in rooms with corners once Pathfinder 4 arrives.
Word. Hounds of Tindalos are by far my favorite Cthulhuoid monster. Any place with corners - you're never safe! I love it.
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In Pathfinder 3 we've got a lake monster that would do Nessie or Ogopogo proud.
Likewise, the Lovecraftian elements will, I hope, feel like a natural addition to the world.
If you'd grown up with UK kids TV you'd know that Nessie is a loveable little cutie who'd run a mile from Black Magga...
I'm fine with a bit of Lovecraft, as long as you leave the misogyny and racism out, but I do struggle with Chtulu in games sometimes because part of the wonder is that everything in the stories is so veiled and contradictory and unknowable. DnD has a tendency to explain itself, even if it's just to the DM, and that can take the shine off the Cthulu "vibe".
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Creative Director
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Me? No, no. I love me my Cthuhlu mythos like crazy. It's just merging it with Pathfinder seems really awful to me. I love the whole "outer realm beyond the planes thing". It's just making Pathfinder and actual set-in-the-real-world Cthuhlu the same setting really kind of bothers me. I dunno. I'll support it if that's what the setting turns into, but uuugh...
Not my favorite thing ever.
How does using monsters from the Cthulhu mythos set Pathfinder in the "real world" any more than using "real world" monsters like zombies and manticores and rakshasas and unicorns? Or bears and sharks, for that matter?
The Lovecraftian elements/monsters in Golarion won't have any ties to Earth, if that's what you're worried about. Hubcaps and fedoras and guns won't be "leaking" in to Golarion on the backs or in the guts of dimensional travelers.
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Creative Director
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Um, they don't even inhabit the same regions of the Underworld... and they see each other as food... n.n;
I'm not sure what your point is. All I was trying to point out was that, in Lovecraft, ghasts and ghouls have a relationship. The word "ghast" as applied to a monster didn't happen, as far as I know, before Lovecraft. Obviously, the D&D ghast/ghoul thing is mostly D&D and has nothing to do with the Lovecraft version... but that DOES seem to be where the D&D ghast came from.
That would make me die a little.
I found this hilarious, thanks for that.
Who knew reviving the Reese's commercial would become a Paizo meme? Too funny, the things that get picked up (feel free to chime in here, "I vomit in my mouth a little" meme).
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As for our relationship with Chaosium: we've been in contact with them about including Lovecraftian elements in the game, and have their blessing (and certainly mention them in Pathfinder or whenever we use the elements as the best place to go for more). Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu Game is one of the oldest RPGs out there... it might even be the oldest one in print that's still being published by the company that invented it, and that's no small claim. I can't recommend their products enough, though, for anyone who's interested in Lovecraft or in horror gaming; they really are the best in the business at it!
That's good to know; it would be a shame if you'd been so careful to avoid WOTC IP, but got slapped with a 'cease-and-desist' order from Chaosium or Arkham House.
What's the position with the non-HPL elements, like the Hounds of Tindalos, Dimensional Shamblers, Y'golonac, etc? Are they covered by different copyright-holders, or are some bundled in with the HPL content, since he co-authored or edited the original texts?
Also, authors like Brian Lumley have written modern works, using the locations and themes from the older stories. How does this affect book rights? Would the Lumley Dreamlands tales be treated as his own creation, or did he have to surrender a lot of creative rights as a condition of being allowed to reference another author's IP?
I'm curious as to the feasibility of future Planet Stories lines, but am aware there could be a legal minefield out there.
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Or C'thulhu might just be a member of a race of octopus headed juggernauts.
I think that may have been suggested before...
Some stories have him as the creator of the Star-Spawn; others simply state that he is the oldest, largest and most powerful of the Star-Spawn.Of course, both stories can be true. He is merely one of many identical creatures, and he went on to create his own servitor race.
The idea of Mythos stuff make me a happy DM. Not only can I mine some of this stuff for my d20 Modern/Dark*Matter game, but the Far Realm has been one of my favorite sources of villains for years.
The Gates of Firestorm Peak, an old 2e adventure, did a great job of introducing a number of creatures from the Far Realms.
While I have promised not to use the Far Realm as the BBEGs in modern campaign, I can still use Mythos creatures to scare the players.
I have to say that this news upsets me -- because it makes me question my resolution not to subscribe to Pathfinder given its likely conversion to 4E. Learning about the Mythos angle (no pun intended) to future adventures is a very strong temptation for me ...
But I must resist.
This just makes me feel all squamous inside, and I do think that the bridge ruins in Magnimar are a little, shall we say, cyclopean. My guess is this will be explored in the third adventure path - with the whole darkness rising theme and all.
A minor quibble - I believe the Far Realm is a D&D concept, while HPL referred to the Outside, and beyond the stars.
Mythos in Golarion?! YAY!!!
As long as it's handled well, this will make me so happy! Now I can't wait for more info on this. Now I can have Hastur around! Hastur worshipping gnomes maybe?
Anyway, if the mythos creatures are treated as standard demi-gods I don't think it'll corrupt the setting. As long as we don't get something weird like Investigators in Sandpoint or hints of Earth existing I'll be happy.
For anyone who is a fan of HPL and Order of the Stick, you should check out the Unspeakable Vault of Doom webcomic.
I have to say that this news upsets me -- because it makes me question my resolution not to subscribe to Pathfinder given its likely conversion to 4E. Learning about the Mythos angle (no pun intended) to future adventures is a very strong temptation for me ...
But I must resist.
Do not resist! Resistance is futile!
Join us you will! Your destiny it is!
I have it on good authority that if you subscribe, you will be among those who will be eaten first!
[bad humor]If Golarion has any hot women at all, or even just one, James T. Kirk *will* come. The Prime Directive be damned, he's horny, damnit!!![/bad humor]
I think I understood Grim to mean that Lovecraft-like elements would be the gateway to all sorts of elements that he found would shatter his disbelief in playing a fantasy genre: such as seeing Starfleet arrive, or a T.A.R.D.I.S. pop up with a man in a long scarf, or Darth Vader and a few Oompa Loompas with Willy Wonka chocolate goodies, or that Al Qaida will show up with Bingo cards.
I would seriously doubt that bubblegum and Britney Spears will show up in Pathfinder just because other elements that originate from Earth have already shown up like humans and the concept of mountains. I think as long as the Gnome society isn't secretive because they like break-dancing to old Michael Jackson songs, that Pathfinder will continue to be a-okay.
As far as mythos goes, it can't be avoided. So long as someone asks *why do we have a sky* or *how come we wear clothes* there will have been a mythos of gathered answers that become their beliefs. Pesky children always ask questions, and their parents have to come up with something.
As far as using Earth elements, it's impossible to avoid so long as Pathfinder is written by Earthlings. Of course, some of the Paizonians and contributers may have hidden their breathing tubes well with long hair and/or high coat collars/ turtlenecks, but I doubt they want to to reveal that kind of secret until Earth is completely changed into the atmosphere they're used to.
G'ulurg Zork Bluborab!!!!!
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Creative Director
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A minor quibble - I believe the Far Realm is a D&D concept, while HPL referred to the Outside, and beyond the stars.
That is correct. Which is why we aren't using the Far Realm in Golarion... that, and it's Wizards' intellectual property. We can't use the Far Realm any more than we can use Eberron or Greyhawk or mind flayers or binders.
That said, there are areas of our multiverse that fill the same role as the Far Realm; places where things are fundamentally different or wrong or insane. They aren't going to be one place (as in the Far Realm) but as many of these different places as we need.
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Creative Director
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Anyway, if the mythos creatures are treated as standard demi-gods I don't think it'll corrupt the setting. As long as we don't get something weird like Investigators in Sandpoint or hints of Earth existing I'll be happy.
Investigator style PCs are a Call of Cthulhu RPG concept. They won't be in Golarion. We're taking inspiration from the original stories, not so much from the style of Chaosium's excellent RPG.
The big names themselves aren't treated as standard demigods either. Some of them (most of them) aren't even gods anyway.
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Creative Director
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As far as using Earth elements, it's impossible to avoid so long as Pathfinder is written by Earthlings.
Earth is actually the BEST place to find new monsters, be it in Lovecraft, myth, cryptozoology, the fossil record, or just looking at weird animals (did you know that some tarantulas have poison hair they can flick at enemies?). We as a society have been making up and refining our monsters for thousands of years. That's a lot more R&D time than anything any game design company has done yet!