That's right, what if we don't switch? By 'we' I mean the Paizo community and any and all connected to us. This is a sequel of the main thread about splitting off.
Note the following assumptions for this thread:
1. We have enough minds to create/continue the game we love. Most of the best releases by WoTC have been by Paizo/ex-Paizo people.
2. WoTC is not polishing DnD, it is breaking and remaking DnD.
3. WoTC is courting new players, not catering to older players.
4. WoTC will not go out of business, and will likely not feel the impact economically if we break off.
I just spent an hour surfing the WoTC site gleaning info about 4.0 and frankly have a hard time thinking of it as DnD.
With Jacobs/Mona/Logue/et al working freelance with WoTC and still not knowing about 4.0, I just have to shake my head.
Anyway, back on topic, linked by number to assumptions above
1. Yes, Paizo has Jacobs et al and frankly that's enough of a production team for me, much more reliable than the WoTC staff, IMO.
(And I'll mention Pett, go keep the Pett/Logue balance intact)
2. I am not interested in learning a new gaming system or a new mythology. (There are 'better' games out there than DnD already, they just have hard learning curves or not enough players to keep a consistent campaign going.)
3. Doesn't WoTC realize that almost every DnD player was introduced into the game by another DnD player? Sure, the new system may cater to new players, but how many new players will even be buying the stuff? How many old players after they realize they have to relearn the game they've been playing 20+ years?
4. Despite the 'doom & gloom' WoTC will stay in business. Look at "New Coke" for an example of how lack of consumption can cause a major company that's invested a lot of money in research to backtrack. I cross my fingers that we might do the same because while I don't think our lack of purchasing will necessarily effect WoTC, I think the fact they're trying to sell an essentially new RPG may wake them up to the fact they had a good thing going.
My main worry with WoTC is that in either noticing or not noticing the split, may close shop on 3.x... It'd be hard to bring in players if they couldn't get a 3.x PHB.
Okay, maybe this is a venting thread more than anything.
Combat can be time-consuming, but I don't see anything faster about the new system: simpler, yes, but faster, not so much. If I wanted to play DnD minis skirmish rules, I would. I don't. I want DnD, in all its cinematic 3.x glory.
Anyway, what do you think would happen if Paizo+ broke away?
I think we'd be fine, but I do worry about it down the line. Would Paizo be able to get a hold of rights to Greyhawk, etc?
I think this would be great! It would be different if I thought WotC cared what I wanted or even thought about what it's buyers wanted, but this doesn't seem to be the case. I have been the happiest with products that the good people at Paizo have created, and would like to see this continued.
There has to be enough 3rd party companies to keep 3rd ed. going. I would throw Mongoose Publishing and Privateer Press in the same boat with Paizo. I feel like they have tried to give new/different ideas that seem to follow along the lines of what we want. They also seem to be able to keep the power creep from happening at least less so than WotC.
Revolution!!! Viva la Revolucion!!! Wait French bad...
Jefferson
"Our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them."
Fizz
I'd do it only if everyone here actually did this.
Fizzban raises an interesting point: What if 'we' included the other publishers as well? Is there a central company/person/website to coordinate such? Does WoTC have the power to 'pull-the-plug'? (Haven't read the OGL lately.)
(I agree with the power-creep statement, inevitable, but certainly stronger in WoTC products. I think they were experimenting with the new 'anime' DnD in later issues.)
P.S. I'm not really anti-WoTC per se. I think I am seeing a 'disconnect' between Hasbro's understanding/pressures and DnD consumers/culture. Not sure.
That's right, what if we don't switch? By 'we' I mean the Paizo community and any and all connected to us.
I think the first problem with this is that the "we" you are referring to isn't really as unified as you may be assuming. There are quite a few of us among the Paizo community (and I'm guessing among the staff) that actually DO want to switch (or are at least looking forward to trying it out). Moreover, we would like Paizo to switch as well.
I think too often discussions of 4e break down into an "us" versus "them" mentality, where WotC are the bad "them," who are making the game we don't want and Paizo are the good "us" who want to keep the game the same. I, for one, like what I see in 4e, and I like Paizo (and especially the Pathfinder setting). I would like them to go together.
I'm not trying to argue with you. And I certainly believe that those of you who are hoping for a future without 4e have a right to discuss what it could possibly end up like. But I think it is important to remember that such a viewpoint doesn't reflect ALL of us Paizonians.
I'm with Paolo on this. I hope that Paizo and WotC, and 3.5 and 4e (and perhaps 3.75) can all coexist peacefully. I plan to buy and play 4e, continue buying and playing 3.5, and purchase from both Paizo and WotC.
I just want to know what's going to happen when Erik and James and Nicolas and Richard start writing for 4e on the WotC site (and trust me they will). What will all those people do who hate 4e (already) but love the guys I've just mentioned? Oh the decisions!
I just want to know what's going to happen when Erik and James and Nicolas and Richard start writing for 4e on the WotC site (and trust me they will). What will all those people do who hate 4e (already) but love the guys I've just mentioned? Oh the decisions!
Maybe you have some insider information, but I wouldn't automatically group the Paizo staff in w/ the freelancers. The Paizo gang already seem to be working ridiculously long hours trying to expand their business, and the Golarion campaign setting. There are only so many hours in the day, after all...
As for the freelancers, that's obviously another story. I can't begrudge them trying to make a living by hawking their esteemed adventures over at WOTC. But I'll apologize right now for possibly skipping their online-only work. I've long ago decided I'm not doing the pdf thing for the next generation of the old print mags. No hard feelings...
I just want to know what's going to happen when Erik and James and Nicolas and Richard start writing for 4e on the WotC site (and trust me they will). What will all those people do who hate 4e (already) but love the guys I've just mentioned? Oh the decisions!
They've gotta earn a living just like everyone else and no one can begrudge that.
At the same time, I don't like what I see in the 4th edition previews/blogs and have no interest in playing it. If a good number of people feel the same way that would give a company that sticks with, and refines, 3rd edition a golden opportunity.
My hope is that Paizo (possibly in conjunction with Mongoose, Goodman Goods, and/or Necromancer) keeps 3rd edition alive and well. 3rd edition, to my mind, is a vast improvement over AD&D. It has some major flaws but I'd rather see these tweaked than see the game overhauled to such an extent that it bears little resemblance to D&D.
At this point, Paizo's posting fanbase seems quite split - which is the worst case scenario for Paizo.
I'm not going 4E, and from reading the other thread, neither are many others who post here.
The good news is, we still have 9 pathfinder adventures and a bunch of GameMastery modules coming out for 3.5.
One possible strategy (for the short term) is for Paizo to create 4E products for the 4E launch while providing a 3.5 stat download for those of us not switching. The problem, though, is that if the rules are as different as it seems they might be, I'm not sure that such a strategy is even feasible.
For example, in 3.5, a CR 4 monster is (usually) a good challenge for 4th level characters. In 4E, though, a single "Level 4" creature might be a walk in the park for a 4th level 4E party. To compensate, the 4E version may have to have the "Level 4" creature and 10 "mooks."
Now you have two different populations in your adventures, and you *know* that one of the versions (probably the non-printed version) will suffer for it.
It has some major flaws but I'd rather see these tweaked than see the game overhauled to such an extent that it bears little resemblance to D&D.That's the exact position I was in with 2nd edition when the emergence of 3e came to light. A part of me still feels that way too. Funny how some things never change.
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That's right, what if we don't switch? By 'we' I mean the Paizo community and any and all connected to us.
Enthusiasm for not switching will be high at first. Then more and more 4E products will come out and draw people in. Enthusiasm will diminish as the numbers diminish.
You said it yourself ...
There are 'better' games out there than DnD already, they just have hard learning curves or not enough players to keep a consistent campaign going.
Enthusiasm for not switching will be high at first. Then more and more 4E products will come out and draw people in. Enthusiasm will diminish as the numbers diminish.
That very well depends on D&DI. All the whizzbang gollygoshgee things for 4e seem to be happening for, at, or on D&DI. Will third party publishers be able to bring their products through this medium? If not I don't see it integrating with the 'main line' stuff WotC will be putting out. Non-integratable to me means ,'it's for another game'.
And if it's for another game ...=/
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That very well depends on D&DI. All the whizzbang gollygoshgee things for 4e seem to be happening for, at, or on D&DI. Will third party publishers be able to bring their products through this medium? If not I don't see it integrating with the 'main line' stuff WotC will be putting out. Non-integratable to me means ,'it's for another game'.
And if it's for another game ...
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I am not sure I agree. I plan on switching to 4E but i do not plan on using any of the online tools. Its the game that interests me and not the electronic accesories. If the rules rock then people will switch right away. If the rules are just OK then people will switch when their favorite campaign setting switches.
If the rules are just OK then people will switch when their favorite campaign setting switches.
Or for the first time in 20 years they won't be picking up "current" sourcebooks for their favorite setting.
Just saying.
If the rules are just OK then people will switch when their favorite campaign setting switches.Or for the first time in 20 years they won't be picking up "current" sourcebooks for their favorite setting.
Just saying.
Not counting Pathfinder, of course, my favorite Campaign is a defunct 3.0/3.5 one that has enough source material to keep me going for years.
Or for the first time in 20 years they won't be picking up "current" sourcebooks for their favorite setting.
This describes me pretty well. Whatever its merits or demerits, 4E has had one very salutary effect on me: it made me re-evaluate what I want out of a RPG and why I want it. The conclusion I came to made me realize that, in 2007 and beyond, there will be fewer and fewer companies who produce the kinds of RPG products I'll actually buy and use, so I'll just stop buying them to the same degree I had in the past. No sense in spending money on products that run against the grain of what I want.
I fully expect lots of older gamers will come to the same conclusion eventually. Some of them will, of course, take the plunge and convert to 4E, as will almost every single third party publisher, and some of them will be happy with the decision. I'm guessing a significant minority won't be and, as in the shift between 2E and 3E and 3E and 3.5, they will drop away from being regular buyers of RPG products. They won't stop being gamers; they just won't be picking up current books.
Never figured I'd be one of those guys, but here I am.
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If the rules are just OK then people will switch when their favorite campaign setting switches.Or for the first time in 20 years they won't be picking up "current" sourcebooks for their favorite setting.
Just saying.
I know very few gamers who can resist new material on their favorite setting. I think very few can actually resist the lure of new facts, stats, and tidbits that will keep them in the know.
I know very few gamers who can resist new material on their favorite setting. I think very few can actually resist the lure of new facts, stats, and tidbits that will keep them in the know.
You have a point there. I´m a collector of RPG stuff as well (not that I own everything ever printed, far from it, but enough that my fianceé rolls her eyes and sighs every time I buy something new), so I will probably buy at some point some 4e stuff. From what I see now, it will probably not be much, but my opinions have changed in the past and will do so again. If they would produce anything new for Greyhawk, Mystara, Al-Qadim, Spelljammer or Planescape, I would buy it, even if the GH stuff would probably be the umpteenth version of the stuff I have already.
But the DI probably isn´t for me, as I don´t like the MMORPG approach - I don´t play these, so I won´t use that. Yeah, I´m an old fart - and proud of it.
Stefan
I know very few gamers who can resist new material on their favorite setting. I think very few can actually resist the lure of new facts, stats, and tidbits that will keep them in the know.
If the rules are just OK then people will switch when their favorite campaign setting switches.Or for the first time in 20 years they won't be picking up "current" sourcebooks for their favorite setting.
Just saying.
Yeah. But very little I find in setting books are actual rules. I've got gazeteers from all three editions of D&D, and for games totally unrelated to the d20 system. Usually I buy at a gamestore so I can flip through it. And so far a few pages or sections of rules didn't stop me from buying the book that 90% was descriptive text. I bought quite a few MechWarrior books and didn't have the RPG. Still don't ,really.
I know very few gamers who can resist new material on their favorite setting. I think very few can actually resist the lure of new facts, stats, and tidbits that will keep them in the know.
I can only speak for myself and for the people I know personally, but while I'm normally willing to pick up as much as I can with the FR logo on it because I love the setting, I know for a fact that there is a point at which too much of a change causes a disconnect and kills the drive to pick up anything more.
I have proof that at least I will stick to this idea. When Dragonlance entered the "Fifth Age" and switched to Saga system, I left the setting. I loved Dragonlance, but it didn't feel like Dragonlance anymore. And it wasn't that the setting had changed. I liked some of the new information presented in Dragons of Summer Flame and the Second Generation, but Fifth Age was slapping a Krynn label on something new.
When this happened, I left, and when the d20 system convinced me it was D&D, and Hickman and Weis got the chance to "fix" some of the issues with Krynn, I came back.
I'm not saying this will happen again, but I am saying that it isn't a given that FR will flourish with existing fans just because its FR. TSR managed to kill and fracture a fanbase with a drastic change like this before, and I'm not convinced WOTC isn't heading in the same direction, but I'm also not saying that I know this will absolutely happen.
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I know very few gamers who can resist new material on their favorite setting. I think very few can actually resist the lure of new facts, stats, and tidbits that will keep them in the know.
I've had trouble in the past resisting. I am getting better though, and think I'll be able to control myself once 4E comes out.
..while I'm normally willing to pick up as much as I can with the FR logo on it because I love the setting, I know for a fact that there is a point at which too much of a change causes a disconnect and kills the drive to pick up anything more.
This happened to me. The book that killed the urge to get anymore FR books? The Waterdeep book. Why? No index. *rant rant rant*
I've had trouble in the past resisting. I am getting better though, and think I'll be able to control myself once 4E comes out.
The beauty is, every time I think I may be tempted, a new blurb about 4E comes out, and I lose interest all over again. :)
No 4e for me.
No 4e for me, either. The only way I could see me buying any 4e stuff would be Paizo switching to 4e - and then I'll only buy the stuff Paizo says they will draw upon in their products.
But the more we hear about 4e, the less I think that Pathfinder can be converted to 4e, at least not without making it 4.1e right away, with lots of changes, disregarding half of the stuff that's in the core books, and so on.
As for Campaign Settings: I used to be a huge Forgotten Realms fan. After I read what happens to the Realms in 4e, I dropped the setting like a hot potato.
It's ironic: If they hadn't messed up the Realms, it would probably have convinced me to pick up 4e even with a trainwreck of a ruleset.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
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D&D 4E is no longer D&D in my mind.
I have a love of all the nostaliga and history of 30+ years of Dungeons and Dragons. I started playing just before 2nd ed came out and really got into it in the 90's though high school and college... when TSR bit the dust the summer of '99 I was distraught about it. My favorite setting got killed (kind of) by Faction War and I didn't think I'd be playing D&D again... then came 3E and I was excited. WotC came in a rescued D&D from oblivion! I looked at the system and found it fixed a lot of things I didn't like about 2E. It looked a lot like the game I was already playing (Player's option: Combat & Tactics was pretty similar to the 3E rules). OK many years later, several dozens of splatbooks and hundreds to thousands of dollars in purchases, and a revision to boot...WotC decides to gut D&D and makes some foul Flesh Golem of a game that they can slap the Logo on and snidely say "ze game will remain ze same."
Can anyone else say what a Crock?!?!
I will play 3.5 games as will my group. I can't wait to run all THREE 3.5 Pathfinder AP's (after I finish up the STAP) and see what's left on the market after that. Besides I can always look through my back issues of Dungeon for ideas (I've only used like 20% of the adventures) and can certainly write my own campaigns.
4E can rot in the strange new succubus-infested Hells it has made for itself.
--"We will, we will Vrock you!"
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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..while I'm normally willing to pick up as much as I can with the FR logo on it because I love the setting, I know for a fact that there is a point at which too much of a change causes a disconnect and kills the drive to pick up anything more.This happened to me. The book that killed the urge to get anymore FR books? The Waterdeep book. Why? No index. *rant rant rant*
When it came to the Waterdeep book. I compared it to the Volo's guide and sighed.
~shrugs~ I might switch when 4.5 edition comes out. Or wait until 5.0 edition in about 5 to 8 years. By then I just might be done with most of my 3.5 edition adventures. Of course, a lot of my desire to change depends upon what direction Paizo goes.
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Tell you want, I'm pretty open minded about 4.0 and will buy the new core books at least, but the more good, cheap 3.5 stuff I find (Green Ronin, Fantasy Flight, etc.) the more likely I am to add a little 4.0 to my 3.5 than the other way around. Seriously, it's like Christmas in ... well, December I guess ;)
If we don't switch, WOTC will send out its crystals bats to pinpoint the locations of owners of previous editions. Then, at night, the Garthim soldiers come for us and our loved ones.
Chaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaamberlin!!!
I have yet to be bowled over by 4E. The mechanics changes don't seem to be all that necessary and the changes in race and class...
Well, let's say that it is like McDOnalds one day saying; "We are discontinuing the Big Mac and the Filet of Fish. We will replace the Big Mac with a slice of pizza and the Filet of Fish (which everyone seemed to dislike anyway) will be reissued later as something more akin to a Beef Burrito (which the kids seem to prefer). Oh, and by the way there will be big changes in the way Fries are distributed- watch out you are going to love this!"
No...Pizza.
Pizza will also have new abilities...every topping you add will enhance the flavor of your friend's food.
If we don't switch, WOTC will send out its crystals bats to pinpoint the locations of owners of previous editions. Then, at night, the Garthim soldiers come for us and our loved ones.
Our cat will catch and eat them.
No...Pizza.
Pizza will also have new abilities...every topping you add will enhance the flavor of your friend's food.
Yeah, I believe so.
You know, I had that once. I wouldn't quite say "enhance", though, but it did affect everyone else's flavour. That night is still known to us as The Night When Everyone Went Hungry.
4e is The Edition Where Everyone Goes Hungry.
No...Pizza.
Pizza will also have new abilities...every topping you add will enhance the flavor of your friend's food.
HA HA HA HA!!! *wipes tear from eye* (That tear could be taken as intense mirth or intense disappointment)
I can't eat pizza. If the game doesn't support pasta, or a nice schnitzel, I don't want it.
I can't eat pizza. If the game doesn't support pasta, or a nice schnitzel, I don't want it.
Pasta will be handled in a brilliant new way. Instead of cooking it in a pot (which we all know is a broken mechanic) pasta will be issued at the start of each meal. If you eat more than half of your pasta during the meal you will receive an additional spoonful at the start of your next meal (regardless of how long it would take to cook in reality). This will allow for a continuous stream of pasta without need to stop and make more between meals.
Well, well, because I couldn't care less ! Seriously I have no interest at all into this new edition, all the stuff I heard about it didn't convince me AT ALL, and I'm quite happy with 3.5, so why should I bother myself with a new edition (and 90 Euros worth of books) ?
Not for me, and I happily pass on this!
No 4E as well in my groups future.
The paizo folks are my favorite designers. Ill be picking up the last of the 3.5 stuff until they switch to 4E. Then, Im not even sure ill be able to mine anything from a Paizo 4E product (given its flavor direction).
Just wanted to add, thanks much Paizo for all the APs youve given us. They are all excellent and will give me some more good years of D&D gaming.
If we don't switch, WOTC will send out its crystals bats to pinpoint the locations of owners of previous editions. Then, at night, the Garthim soldiers come for us and our loved ones.
Cool! Finally, some competition! >;-)
DI has absolutely nothing to do with MMORPGs other than the tools will be available online. I keep hearing this, and I'm not sure exactly where it is coming from.
Best,
E - card carrying member of the old fart club
But the DI probably isn´t for me, as I don´t like the MMORPG approach - I don´t play these, so I won´t use that. Yeah, I´m an old fart - and proud of it.