Bill Webb posted today that Eamonvale wil be a 4E release. It will be at Gen Con provided Necromancer gets the 4E rules in time.
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Bill Webb posted today that Eamonvale wil be a 4E release. It will be at Gen Con provided Necromancer gets the 4E rules in time.
Are you serious!?
After they claim up and down that it will be released as a 3.5 product. Unf***in-believable!!Well theres another 4e product that I wont be buying.
Awful news.
We will make 3.5 stats available, just like with Tegel Manor.
The bottom line is that supporting 3.5 just isnt feasible if you have the choice of going to 4E. AND, like Judges Guild (at least in its heyday) our purpose is to support the current version of the game and make sure it is injected with the proper 1E feel.
So we held Eamonvale. It will now get a much wider audience and be a better more successful products. And alleged edition rejectors will get their 3.5 stats. That is good for everyone.
Clark
I'm leaving the option open :)
Hey everyone-
Sorry to hear there's some disappointment about Eamonvale. I can't speak with total authority, but since the entire thing was edited and laid out for 3.5, we still have all that material. My suspicion, having not yet discussed it with Bill, is that we won't let that version gather dust, but will make every effort to get it to you guys in some form. I suspect at a minimum you'll see a 3.5 NPC appendix, if not more. If Bill isn't interested, I'll layout a simple PDF and host it myself <shamlessplug> with all the other free web enhancements on www.darkloch.com. </shamelessplug> I feel pretty strongly that this is the right way to go, and I'm sorry you feel otherwise. Tempora mutantur, nos et mutamur in illis... times change, and we must change with them.
Nate, a.k.a. Mac, a.k.a. the author
Sorry Mac, but thats not good enough. No 3.5 no sale. Too bad you drank the cool aid. What makes it worse is that you made us wait so long for it.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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We will make 3.5 stats available, just like with Tegel Manor.
The bottom line is that supporting 3.5 just isnt feasible if you have the choice of going to 4E. AND, like Judges Guild (at least in its heyday) our purpose is to support the current version of the game and make sure it is injected with the proper 1E feel.
So we held Eamonvale. It will now get a much wider audience and be a better more successful products. And alleged edition rejectors will get their 3.5 stats. That is good for everyone.
Clark
Agree with the others (if more tactfully than some) No alleged here. Just means I'll look long and hard at the 3.x stats before I buy it.
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I really don't see why they can't just release (at least) the pdf version as 3.5 now and then put the print version in 4.0.
I mean if people buy it either way why does it matter? Seeing as Grey Citadel was 3rd ed.
There'll be plenty of time to put out 4e products later. I just don't see why they need to wait and do it with THIS ONE.
I don't like being lied to.
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We will make 3.5 stats available, just like with Tegel Manor.
The bottom line is that supporting 3.5 just isnt feasible if you have the choice of going to 4E. AND, like Judges Guild (at least in its heyday) our purpose is to support the current version of the game and make sure it is injected with the proper 1E feel.
Coolio. I'm currently planning to stick with 3.5 for some time after 4e's released. But I can also use Eamonvale's duel-rules set to convert adventures back and forth.
I really don't see why they can't just release (at least) the pdf version as 3.5 now and then put the print version in 4.0.
I mean if people buy it either way why does it matter? Seeing as Grey Citadel was 3rd ed.
There'll be plenty of time to put out 4e products later. I just don't see why they need to wait and do it with THIS ONE.
I don't like being lied to.
Becuase of the NUMBER of people who buy it. Right now, it would sell 800 copies. That just doesnt cut it. And, since authors share in part in the profit with us, it hurts the author.
The market will be massively different for 4E, or that is the thinking anyway. And I'm not in the business of spending the $$$ to have a book laid out, buy art and maps, a cover, send it to china for printing, pay to have it printed, pay to have it sent back, pay to send it to wholesalers only to sell 800 copies.
There is a reason why Necro is still in business and 1000 other d20 companies are in the s@#+ter--that reason is because we are flexible, adapt and make good business decisions.
And you werent ever lied to. That is insulting.
Coolio. I'm currently planning to stick with 3.5 for some time after 4e's released. But I can also use Eamonvale's duel-rules set to convert adventures back and forth.We will make 3.5 stats available, just like with Tegel Manor.
The bottom line is that supporting 3.5 just isnt feasible if you have the choice of going to 4E. AND, like Judges Guild (at least in its heyday) our purpose is to support the current version of the game and make sure it is injected with the proper 1E feel.
We're trying hard to accomodate the fact that there will be a long period of time where people will be deciding whether or not to adopt 4E. So my thought is this--if the manuscript was done in 3E, the 3E stats will be made available even if we publish the product in 4E. However, once we go 4E we will not backwards-create 3E stats though we will allow the author and/or fans to do that and we will post it.
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Are you in a position to update us on the Slumbering Tsar series?
There is a reason why Necro is still in business and 1000 other d20 companies are in the s*!@ter--that reason is because we are flexible, adapt and make good business decisions.
Oh, I thought it was because you made some of the very best products out there...can you blame us if we are upset at having to wait longer?
Oh, I thought it was because you made some of the very best products out there...can you blame us if we are upset at having to wait longer?
No, I cant blame you. Believe me, it is pissing me off too. I wish we werent having this problem. But we are. And I have to react in the most responsible business way that is consistent with our business plan.
And, yes, it actually also is because we make some of the best stuff out there. But good content alone isnt enough if you lose your shirt doing it. :)
Clark
Sorry Mac, but thats not good enough. No 3.5 no sale.
Same here - I bought all 3.x necromancer books and I love them - I will not buy a single 4e book, no matter who is going to make it. I don't want a "3.5 web enhancement", I want a printed 3.5 book.
I switched to D&D3 a few years ago for my fantasy campaigns (from GURPS) because I WANTED the rules to fit to the adventures I wanted to play - DUNGEONs high quality brought me to it. Now, I want the adventures to fit to the system we play and love.
I really don't see why they can't just release (at least) the pdf version as 3.5 now and then put the print version in 4.0.
I mean if people buy it either way why does it matter? Seeing as Grey Citadel was 3rd ed.
There'll be plenty of time to put out 4e products later. I just don't see why they need to wait and do it with THIS ONE.
I don't like being lied to.Becuase of the NUMBER of people who buy it. Right now, it would sell 800 copies. That just doesnt cut it. And, since authors share in part in the profit with us, it hurts the author.
The market will be massively different for 4E, or that is the thinking anyway. And I'm not in the business of spending the $$$ to have a book laid out, buy art and maps, a cover, send it to china for printing, pay to have it printed, pay to have it sent back, pay to send it to wholesalers only to sell 800 copies.
There is a reason why Necro is still in business and 1000 other d20 companies are in the s!*!ter--that reason is because we are flexible, adapt and make good business decisions.
And you werent ever lied to. That is insulting.
What's the big deal. Most necromancer games products have cheap art, typos, and poor production value. It can't cost that much. Most of the products have that unfinished feel to them anyway. None of their products are published on time anyway. City of Brass and Bards Gates were released years after the product announcements for them and long after their the initial publication dates.
Go with 4.0 and you'll be gone just like the rest. Necromancer games has been holding on by a thread for years and never really lived up to their "First Edition Feel" motto. When they go 4.0 that motto won't even apply.
Go with Goodman Games if your loioking for quatlity mods and settings.
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What's the big deal. Most necromancer games products have cheap art, typos, and poor production value. It can't cost that much. Most of the products have that unfinished feel to them anyway. None of their products are published on time anyway. City of Brass and Bards Gates were released years after the product announcements for them and long after their the initial publication dates.
Go with 4.0 and you'll be gone just like the rest. Necromancer games has been holding on by a thread for years and never really lived up to their "First Edition Feel" motto. When they go 4.0 that motto won't even apply.
Go with Goodman Games if your loioking for quatlity mods and settings.
That's a bit harsh...but I do wish Necro would return to its pre-Kenzer style. Their art was great! Quality was awesome, and the adventures were real killers! Come on, the toads on p7 of Tomb of Abysthor is great! Bards Gate and City of Brass have good stuff, too.
But you are correct about Goodman Games being top notch!
What's the big deal. Most necromancer games products have cheap art, typos, and poor production value. It can't cost that much. Most of the products have that unfinished feel to them anyway. None of their products are published on time anyway. City of Brass and Bards Gates were released years after the product announcements for them and long after their the initial publication dates.
Go with 4.0 and you'll be gone just like the rest. Necromancer games has been holding on by a thread for years and never really lived up to their "First Edition Feel" motto. When they go 4.0 that motto won't even apply.
Go with Goodman Games if your loioking for quatlity mods and settings.
That's a bit harsh...but I do wish Necro would return to its pre-Kenzer style. Their art was great! Quality was awesome, and the adventures were real killers! Come on, the toads on p7 of Tomb of Abysthor is great! Bards Gate and City of Brass have good stuff, too.
But you are correct about Goodman Games being top notch!
I was a little harsh there. You make a great observation about the quality of necormancer games products. They started out strong, but in recent years put out junk. City of Brass is the only quality product they have put out in the last two years.
I think they would have done alot better if they just stuck to one setting and developed it. When their products first came out and they referred to places like Bard's Gate and the Tomb of Abystor I couldn't wait. But then I waited and waited and waited and got tired of waitng. I just picked up Bard's Gate on Ebay for 5.00.
I don't see any reason for Necromancer games to keep publishing anything. They obviously don't listen to the market. I think they are just waiting to put out some quick junk product when 4.0 is released so they can get some sales due to the lack of 4.0 content. For them its the 3.0 release all over again. Nothing new here. There's no plan except to make some coin off crappy product.
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I think some of you are being overly harsh on Necromancer games. Yes I am disappointed as well to wait even more for Eamonvalle and that it will be 4e. Since I seriously doubt I will buy 4e at this point. I would much much rather see them join with Paizo and work on Pathfinder RPG.
But I understand it, they are in the same place as Paizo or similar. Damned if they do, damned if they don't, when it comes to adopting to 4e. Paizo has a big advantage they are a bigger company with a very successful pathfinder adventure path. Plus Paizo has their store and other sources of income that Necro just does not have, which limits their choices more.
Plus they are a business, while they are fans of the game and nice people they are there to make money. No one can fault them for that, if they are one of the very few 3rd party publishers with a 4e ready books at gencon it will help them a great deal. Especially if one of those first books is Eamonvalle.(If it is half as good as GC was, it should be one of the best early 4e books hands down) So I think it is a good business decision for Necro even if I am not happy with it. I will still buy Eamonvalle and use it and likely check some of their other products out as well. Especially ones with 3.5 stats on PDF.
Now I like Necro a lot, I think they have put out some great stuff, some so so stuff and a couple of bad products. Just like most companies and I understand the frustration and anger about some of the books that are very late or never happened. But honestly the way you guys are reacting is EXACTLY why most companies refuse to share information with their customers. They get roasted alive for it when things fall apart. Personally I would rather suck it up and have Necro still be open and honest with us the fans. Tell us what they have planed and want to do, even if that means I wait for years for products and some never happen.
I think you should cut them some slack on the product information. I mean seriously how many companies are that open and forthright about their future plans with their fans? Very few and I for one am glad Necro is doing it and hope they keep doing it in the future.
Well said DM.
3. Yes, we 'drank the Kool Aid.' We did it because shackling ourselves to a game system that will soon be unsupported is an act of suicide.
Maybe you didn't hear - Paizo will be continuing support. ;)
True... but Paizo's decision came some time after Necro's decision. I'm not sure how well Necro changing their mind would work. Would WotC give them back the $5K they paid to get a jump on the market? I seriously doubt it. As most of us from the Necromancer Games message boards know, Necro is NOT a big company with money to burn. It basically consists of Bill and Clark and that's pretty much it. $5K is a goodly chunk of change to devote to a business decision and then throw away because the decision was changed.
Yes... Paizo is continuing to support 3.5E even though the system will soon be obsolete. This is Paizo though... former publishers of "Dragon" and "Dungeon" magazines, creators of the "Adventure" path concept, and so on and so forth. In a nutshell, people (distributors, retailers, consumers) know who they are. As such, what system a product is supporting is overshadowed by who published the product. Not so with Necromancer. Time and again, Necro has had issues with product identity. Due to their dedication to making generic, non-branded, products, and their use of publishing partners, their products are continuously mistaken as somebody else's. Necromancer simply does not have the fame (for lack of a better word) as Paizo and as such can't rely on it.
Paizo can rely on their fame to help sell their products and will do so until PF-RPG is completed and released. Necromancer could decide to go with PF-RPG as well (throwing away $5K in the process) but would have to wait until PF-RPG is released in 2009. If memory serves me correctly, Necro's last product release was "City of Brass" back in late summer of 2007. That's nearly two years without a release. Not exactly good for business.
Simply put, Necromancer doesn't have the "muscle" to strike out on their own like Paizo is doing. Like several others, I am disappointed that Necromancer has decided to go 4E. However, I realize that this IS a business and from a business POV, supporting 4E was in Necromancer's best interests. Regardless of what system they use, I like Necro's products and will continue to support them. I'd rather see a 4E Necromancer Games than no Necromancer Games.
Perhaps, if enough people support them (rather than whining about their choice and abandoning them), we can eventually give them the "muscle" necessary to follow Paizo's example and break away.
Viva la Revolucion!
Ah... okay. I was of the understanding that the $5K had to be paid upfront. My bad. Maybe WotC isn't quite as evil as I believe them to be.
So... if Necromancer hasn't paid the $5K yet and won't until AFTER they see the GSL, there is still a chance (albiet an slim one) they might not go 4E if the GSL is not to their liking. Wishful thinking on my part but.....
Necromancer got royally screwed by the announcement of 4E. They had several 3.5 projects in the works, including "Eamonvale Incursion" but when 4E was announced, retailer and distributor interest in 3.5 products completely vanished. Now those projects/products are in limbo until WotC gets off their collective arses and releases the GSL.
"Slumbering Tsar" was on it's way back from the printer when the distibutor's said "It's 3.5. We don't want it" and now something like 1,000 or 1,500 printed copies are sitting in boxes in Bill or Clark's garage, collecting dust because they have no way of getting them to the market in a quantity large enough to cover the production cost.
That is my understanding of the situation, anyways. It could very easily be inaccurate if not altogether wrong so don't take my word for it.
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Yep sounds about right. I don't think Necro will not go 4e unless the GSL is super strict like not even allowing monster books ect. Just don't see them not, baring that.
But yeah that deal I think is a big reason why they are going 4e, is cause they did get stuck with all those books and lost money on that deal. I mean they do this as a hobby and that cut into their own pocket books.
"Slumbering Tsar" was on it's way back from the printer when the distibutor's said "It's 3.5. We don't want it" and now something like 1,000 or 1,500 printed copies are sitting in boxes in Bill or Clark's garage, collecting dust because they have no way of getting them to the market in a quantity large enough to cover the production cost.
If there's even a remote chance this is true, and they're already printed up and ready to sell, I hope to God they're not going to remain in someone's garage doing no one any good whatsoever. If they're printed up, the production cost has been already paid, right? Why not sell some--online works, here on Paizo and on Necro's own boards--to at least recoup some of the $ expended on printing them?
If the reasoning is they hope to release it instead under 4th edition rules, and this would cannibalize those sales, then that's a separate discussion we all could have.
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I checked and it doesn't look like it was made. I could be wrong though not really sure. I was just going off what was said. Though I seem to recall mention of one of their books that came out for 3.5e and it not doing well. Which is why they held up the others, but I could be thinking about another company.
DM - What are your sources?
I only ask because I distinctly recall an announcement that Tsar1 was "on a slow boat FROM China" and was to be released in February.
*sigh* As is par for the course, I can't find the friggin' thread where this was stated and thus keep myself from looking like a babbling idiot who is talking out his arse....
So it would seem I was indeed mistaken. Sorry for any confusion. I'm still not sure where I got the idea that Slumbering Tsar had been printed but never released.
At least Necromancer didn't get screwed as badly as I thought they had.
Anyways... I'll shut up now before I say anything else as equally stupid and incorrect.
Once again, apologies for any confusion I may have caused.
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Clark,
I know that it is much to costly to produce a printed 3.5 product now.
But, and correct me if I am wrong, some products were already laid out and edited for 3.5. Why not sell these products as 3.5 PDF as soon as their 4th edition brothers hit the shelves?
That, and again corret me if I am wrong, is a win win situation for Necromancer and those who stay 3.5.
Necro sells some PDFs and we get more adventures.
Some of the decisions about releasing 3.5 version on pdf of products released for 4E may have ot wait until when (or if) the GSL is finalized, releaed and 3rd party publishers see the actual terms of the license. If it does not allow for release of products in both 4E and 3.5 versions, publishers will have to make a choice.
At the time Necro made the decision to hold these products for 4E release there were a few factors indluencing the decision
a) Kenzer, their then printing/distribution partner for most of these may not have wanted to move forward with more 3.5 products with 4E on the horizon since sales were already slow for 3.5 3rd party products and looked to be slower with the 4E presence looming.
b)distribitors indicated they did not want to carry new 3.5 products with 4E on the horizon as they had lots of unsold 3.5 backstock already and did not want more. Warehousing costs for potential slow or non-sellers cut profitability for distributors. Without distributors buying from the producers, the books won't get to market even if they are made.
c)retailers (either influencing or being influenced by distributors because they too had a large backstock of unsold 3.5 prosucts on their shelves tying up their operating capital leaving little liquid capital to purchase new products) were not ordering large quantities of new (or backstock) 3.5 items. So, they had to choose where they will invest that capital, and the choice is always going to be with the products that have the fastest sell through, and that was going to be the new "hot" product, in this case 4E, so even if distributors do carry a 3.5 product, their sell through to retailers will be very slow leaving distributors and producers with unsold units they now have to pay storage/warehousing on as well.
d) Print runs on most 3rd party products were already very low (1K-2500 units at most usually), and even if only half the existing market switched to 4E that would mean print runs would get even smaller. The smaller the print run, the higher the per unit cost becomes lowering profitability. If 80% of the market switched to 4E that leaves print runs at 200-500 units, which are really not viable numbers to go through the distribution chain (if that chain will even purchase them in the first place).
e)There are options outside the normal distribution models. POD could work for some, as it is geared for smaller print runs, but then pretty much eliminates chances of reaching end customers through distribution channels and retailers and means you have to find other ways to reach the customer, which can be an added expense. Lack of presence on retailer chelves can limit market growth and makes it harder to draw nw customers without marketing and advertising. These are now added costs to the production of the product, and since most of it willbe web based marketing still will not capture those potential customers who are not active on the web. POD also usually increase end cost to the customer as per unit costs are higher, even without added marketing costs figured in. Higher price points may also lower units sold, so the viability question remains. PDF sales are also an option, but there is still a significant number of end customers who choose not to buy PDFs even if it is the only format available. It is print or nothing for them. You must also find an avenue for the PDF's to reach the customer, and many customers expect (some even demand) that PDF costs be significantly cheaper than print prices would be, which means that revenue stream for these products will be smaller and still shared with sdistribution partners.
With those factors in play, it is not surprising that some producers decided to go the 4E route.
Now, WotC dragging their feet on a GSL and Paizo throwing their hat in the ring to do the PathfinderRPG are new factors, and could change things.
However, Paizo does have the edge of having their own online store for distribution, so that leaves a path to the end customer open to this producers even if distributors and retailers do not get on board with it. Paizo also has market penetration and brand recogniztion with those distributors and retailers already because of their volume of products already int he marketplace, giving them another edge because it is more likley that distributors and retailers will get on board with their new venture. These are both positives for them.
Only time will tell if this is enough for it to be a viable sustainable route for Paizo, and it may take even longer to see if it creates enough of a market to stake out a viable sustainable place for other 3.5 print producers to delliver products to end customers. It is a grand experiment, and one I am glad Paizo has undertaken, but each publisher has ot weigh all the facotrs and make decisions that allow them to remain viable. Paizo has a few clear advantages over other 3rd party producers that may allow it to be viable for Paizo but not for others. Really only the owners of each company can have a clear picture of what will work for them and the resources they have. Will I be upset if some of my favorites don't produce products for my tastes any longer? Sure, but I know it is not a personal affront or a plan to deprive me of products. It is just small companies making tough decisions to try to survive in a niche market that is getting fractured, and thus even smaller as the niches within niches begin to develop even smaller niches.
There is a lot more to the process than if you make it I will buy it.
Grayshades, thanks for that well-reasoned and thorough response. I was just getting ready to mention the POD option (e.g., Lulu), so it was a topical post.
I'm sure most of us realize it's not a conspiracy to p*** us off that keeps Necro from publishing these products in 3.5 printed format. We're just frustrated and looking for any viable options still left on the table.
The biggest roadblock right now seems to be the unseen GSL. No use entertaining the thought of getting this stuff out to us in 3.5 rules if they also want to publish them for 4.0, if the GSL says "no can do".
I'm hoping the GSL will allow it, and that a Print-on-demand (POD) option, w/ publicity from Paizo, might do the trick. But time will tell.
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Well it's summer 2008. Still no sign....
I still honestly don't understand how Necro can put out ZERO products for MONTHS. They rant about not being able to put 3.5 products on the shelf beside 4e products and yet there was plenty of time between the transition that they could have used putting SOMETHING out there.
I really dont understand why they could not have at least released Incursion as a PDF only under 3.5. Is that too much to ask? I bought the pdf of Grey Citadel so I would prefer to have a pdf of Incursion.
You guys could have released the PDF a YEAR ago....
Oh wait I just realized that if you guys had done that, what would stop people from converting the adventure to 4e themselves? Shrewd?...maybe
As for saying I was lied to; I believe that not telling people why things are really being done and dancing around questions may as well be the same as lying.
Ah well. Why do I bother?
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So "Eamonvale Incursion Coming in 2008!" Well thats what the website says anyways....
And of course it didn't happen.
Why not give up on this GSL 4E garbage?
I wonder how Nathan Douglas Paul feels about this whole situation?
Something that could have been a great adventure series has been ruined by the waiting game.
I think Nate was OK with 4E as a system.
Not sure if he has started (or will start) to convert Eamonvale, though....
My prediction is that we'll never see it.
(Though if it's for 4e, I - personally - wouldn't care if we never saw it.)
Sigh.....
Just sigh.
