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One thing that has sometimes bothered me when I get detailed oriented about campaign worlds is the question of the 'common tongue'. JRRT used the phrase to describe the default spoken language of Middle Earth and it got taken up by GG as the default D&D language. It is not always realistic though to think that there is a universal language spoken by every creature in the world regardless of geography or culture.
I like the approach taken in Kingdoms of Kalamar where 'common' becomes 'merchant," a language of commerce with a limited vocabulary. Regional and National languages are the rule and a citizen of one city/country may not always be able to communicate with citizens from another region.
In the Pathfinder Players Guide, I notice that they do in fact have cultural languages for each character: Varisian, Chelaxian, etc. Which raises the question in my mind - where did the common tongue come from if it is not from Chelaxia or Varisia? I was thinking about just getting rid of the common tongue altogether and replace it with a more national tongue.
Which brings me to my question - what would be the default language of Sandpoint? Would it be Chelaxian, the language of the conquerors or would it be Varisian, the language of the natives? Or would it be both - most citizens are fluent in both languages to a greater or lesser extent?
Just for sake of not creating a riot of bad blood, I doubt Sandpoint would institute a city-standard language. It would just be a matter of practicality, I'd be guessing. By sight and mannerisms, and by growing up in Sandpoint, most local folks would instinctively pick the language they know will communicate what they want to discuss the best.
If they don't recognize the person, and they can't place by dress and mannerism what ethnicity they are, they'd probably try common first.
I recall reading one article that commented that common is what you make of it, and switching to having different ethnic languages depends on how much work you want to deal with. Deleting common and injecting a myriad of local languages will certainly make "Comprehend Languages" more handy for a spellbook, but then you may also want to take into account the limited amount of skill points. Common can be a simplistic trade-tongue where only quantities, quality of merchandise, etc. can be relayed, or if it's like a galactic universal translatable tongue.
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If they don't recognize the person, and they can't place by dress and mannerism what ethnicity they are, they'd probably try common first
-SNIP-
Deleting common and injecting a myriad of local languages will certainly make "Comprehend Languages" more handy for a spellbook, but then you may also want to take into account the limited amount of skill points.
But if there was no such thing as "common" they would speak what first? Chelaxian or Varisian?
I tend to use the language skill system (or something like it) found in the Kalamar Player's Guide. Players start with 1-2+int.bonus x 10 language skill points. A skill level of 10 in a language denotes a native grasp of a language. Then as the characters level I give them their intelligence bonus worth of language points each level (double for bards).
I'm not familiar with Kalamar. It sounds like a kind of Cyperpunk rating. So, do the points go up from like 10 to 100? So the characters might possibly know scores of languages all at low scores or a few at very high scores?
I think without common, even using the Kalamar system I'd assume people would use their native tongue first. I would guess they'd only use the other language if they wanted to come across as friendly and diplomatic.
They might refuse to speak and simply avoid those with whom communication would be impossible, or simply as a matter of insult should they *know* the language. For example, a Chelish person who can speak with Varisians, but doesn't want to deal with their kind and hates having to give up a part of profits to help out deadbeats.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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"Common," as a language concept, does not really work without historical context.
So to answer this question, I need to give a brief history lesson (and I mean REALLY brief).
10,000 years ago, the most advanced human civilization on the planet was on the continent of Azlant, about a thousand miles southwest of Varisia. Thassilon is a contemporary of Azlant, and probably had dealings with them. The Azlanti "evolved" into a race of humans almost as arrogant as the aboleths who raised them from barbarity, which ultimately triggered a great devastation. The aboleths called down the Starstone from the heavens, plunging it into the planet and, among other things, sinking the continent of Azlant below the waves of the Arcadian Ocean. Thassilon was likewise destroyed, and Golarion was cloaked in a thousand years of darkness.
The survivors of Azlant flocked to the eastern shores of the Inner Sea (itself greatly increased in size due to the crater caused by the Starstone's impact), where they eventually formed a country called Taldor. The language of this nation, infused with Azlanti concepts as well as words and ideas from a variety of other local ancient human kingdoms, was Taldane.
Taldane spread throughout Avistan (the continent on which Varisia and Cheliax are found, roughly analagous to Europe). Cheliax itself was absorbed into the growing Empire of Taldor, marking the westernmost extent of that great human kingdom. Eventually, Cheliax threw off the yoke of Taldor to become its own nation (and eventually its own empire), but it retained the language it had used for countless years. Thus the language called "Chelaxian" is the same language as Taldane, and it is found throughout Avistan and Garund (the "southern continent" across the Inner Sea from Cheliax).
Taldane, then, is also sometimes called Common.
Therefore, Chelaxian = Common.
There are about a dozen other important human languages in the setting, but as Taldane is spoken in most of the lands once covered by the Taldorian and Chelaxian empire, it is known throughout most of the two continents that form the basis of the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting.
--Erik
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I'm not familiar with Kalamar. It sounds like a kind of Cyperpunk rating. So, do the points go up from like 10 to 100? So the characters might possibly know scores of languages all at low scores or a few at very high scores?
It's a D20 skill, just without the level limit of other skills. DC of 10 to converse in the language or read a basic text. A character with a skill of +10 therefore can always understand basic conversation and read basic texts. Creating Poetry and scholarly writing might have higher DCs but scholars (and bards/poets) will of course have a higher skill in the language
And yes, a character might know scores of languages poorly or 1+int.bonus # of languages as native speakers (which is basicly the default for PCs anyway).
"Common," as a language concept, does not really work without historical context.
I got goose bumps. That was a very fun read. Thanks, Erik!
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Creative Director
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Thanks Erik.
It does my heart good to know you have thought these things out. The Pathfinder series looks to be a work of art in the making.
I would have assumed Chelaxian was the default language except the Players Guide lists it as an additional language available to those of that heritage.
Keep in mind, of course, that the Player's Guide was written several months before we had anything like languages or calendars worked out. :)
Actually this is an EXCELLENT turn of events. I was making characters for the Curse of the Crimson Throne. One of them is a linguist, and selected Chelaxian. Now, I get to know another language I really want my character to have. I really enjoy the fine tuning as the world evolves, I just hope to catch all of these updates before the next AP begins. I'm very excited.
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For those who regard Common as lacking versimilitude it's worth noting that the concept is lifted directly from ancient mediteranean history. The model is the greek 'koine' (Common) that was spread by the armies of Alexander the Great and became a Lingua Franca for the med.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koine_Greek
Keep in mind, of course, that the Player's Guide was written several months before we had anything like languages or calendars worked out. :)
You guys have a calender?! Where can I find it?
You guys have a calender?! Where can I find it?
Keep in mind, of course, that the Player's Guide was written several months before we had anything like languages or calendars worked out. :)
It talked about in the Time on Golarion blog article.
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House Rule:
The so-called "Common" tongue is really nothing more than a mish-mash of multiple languages along with pantomime that can be used to convey basic information and is used primarily for trade since mathematics is by and large universal and "common" uses a lot of economic terms. In places where trade is rare, the common tongue is effectively "absent" as there is little "cross-talk" among cultures.
To reflect this, anyone using "common" tongue increases the DC of any Diplomacy checks by +2 to +6 at the DMs discretion assuming the recipient speaks the "common" tongue. As you can expect, true diplomacy is best handled in a formal language
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I use this for sense motive checks as well as profession checks and others where communication is necessary. Basically its an application of "the DMs friend" but have it in my Homebrew Campaign Player's Guide so nobody is blind-sided by it.
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You guys have a calender?! Where can I find it?
Spoiler due to size of blog entry.
Time on Golarion
From Mike McArtor on Friday, August 10, 2007
Time travels on Golarion much as it does here on our own Earth. Sixty seconds form a minute, sixty minutes create an hour, and twenty-four hours make a day. The people of Golarion measure time much like we do as well, with seven days to a week and twelve 30-day months to a year. Years are marked since the founding of the last great empire, that of Aroden, the Last Man. Although the empire has collapsed, its calendar remains in use to this day. At the start of the campaign, the date is 4707 AR (Absalom Reckoning).
Days of the Week
The days of the week are as follows. Each day has a general purpose that most people in the Inner Sea region follow.
Day General Purpose
Moonday Work, religion [night]
Toilday Work
Wealday Work
Oathday Work, pacts signed, oaths sworn
Fireday Work
Starday Work
Sunday Rest, religion
Months
The months in Golarion correspond to our own, with each new year starting shortly after the solstice. You'll notice that the name of each month is etymologically tied to a specific god—residents of Golarion see the gods reflected in the changing of the seasons, and their names for the months reflect this. (Gozreh's month, for instance, is a time of budding and new life, while Zon-Kuthon's is seen as the death of the old year.) Holidays in a given month are generally tied to their patron deity. In order, the months are:
Abadius (January)
Calistril (February)
Pharast (March)
Gozran (April)
Desnus (May)
Sarenith (June)
Erastus (July)
Arodus (August)
Rova (September)
Lamashan (October)
Neth (November)
Kuthona (December)
Thanks Erik, It's nice to have the explanation and history of "common".
Thanks for the calender guys.
Thanks to a link in another thread, I just found this one and wanted to dredge it up for some more discussion on languages.
What I'm looking for here is some ideas on how different DMs deal with different languages (be they racial, regional, historical or whatever). In my experience, I've found having different languages to be a handicap that often overcomes the benefits. The best you get from it is a party that can actually understand what someone else is saying. On the other hand, you risk the party not being able to communicate and the potential for derailing RP or plot elements doesn't seem worth it. At its most awkward, you have only a few (or one) party members who can understand and then you have to bog down the game with interpretation and "player knowledge".
Take Burnt Offerings fer instance. How does this adventure benefit from having different languages in it? The one example of foreign writing is already translated for the PCs by the time they get it. What's more, if the goblins followed this logic, they'd all be speaking Goblin and nobody'd get to enjoy the goblin song or understand their antics.
This seems like a high cost to pay for the roleplay opportunity of having the two elves in the party be able to make fun of the dwarf without him understanding.
Now, when there's a play element to a foreign language, that's another thing. I've seen it used very successfully where PCs have had to make skill/Bardic checks, do research or consult sages to interpret other languages (the symbols in 'Whispering Cairn' spring to mind) and that adds an element of fun to the business.
So while it makes sense that the dwarves and elves and kobolds would have their own languages, it hasn't held up too well in my campaigns.
How about the rest of you? How have you gamed languages to your group's benefit? Is there a balance somewheres?
How about the rest of you? How have you gamed languages to your group's benefit? Is there a balance somewheres?
Benefits we've found:
(1) Speaking someone's language can be a nice diplomatic point, especially if you don't reveal it too soon; our PCs speak Giantish and had fun with this in #4 when they were negotiating with the giants.(2) Being able to read what others in the setting cannot helps make the PCs feel unique, and explains why they find stuff others haven't.
(3) A private language among the PCs is both useful and fun. (Our party uses Thassilonian for this purpose, which feeds into an overall horror theme that they are becoming more and more like their enemies.)
Detriments:
(1) PCs who don't speak the relevant language can be left out, especially if the PCs are in a foreign culture.
(2) If there are too many languages, the skill points are just wasted unless the players can read the GM's mind and guess which ones will be needed.
(3) If you really want the PCs to hear the villain's great speech, it's a lot easier to arrange that with everyone speaking Common. (The goblin song is a great example of this problem. I had it in Common even though Goblin would make more sense.)
(4) Language barriers can just encourage hack-and-slash if the group is inclined that way, because talking to people becomes so tough.
For Pathfinder we abandoned the idea of Varisian as different from Chelish/Common, and in general reduced the number of languages, but have made a big point of the ones we do have. Only one PC speaks Sylvan/Elven, and that led to an interesting decision point when he was the only one who understood what the earth-fay were offering--should he tell the others?
The best language-related moment, though, was when the PCs heard a particular NPC unexpectedly speaking perfect high-court Thassilonian--much better than they can speak it, or anyone they've ever heard. Their reaction sent a chill right up my spine.
I was rather surprised that my player gave me 5 PCs who all speak the same dead language, but it's been a rich source of characterization details. On the other hand, if they'd all spoken Dwarvish...enh. Not much call for it, so not much to gain.
While the huge number of languages in D&D is realistic, for entertainment purposes cutting it down to half a dozen or so seems better to me.
Mary
Only one PC speaks Sylvan/Elven, and that led to an interesting decision point when he was the only one who understood what the earth-fay were offering--should he tell the others?
Mary, how do you get this sort of "intra-party" action with only one player? I too will run RotRL for my 1 player (my wife), and in such scenarios in the past it has been awkward (at best) to separate knowledge/decisions of a single character from the rest of the party. Any advice you can heap my way would be much appreciated (even if off topic!).
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Keep in mind, of course, that the Player's Guide was written several months before we had anything like languages or calendars worked out. :)Thanks Erik.
It does my heart good to know you have thought these things out. The Pathfinder series looks to be a work of art in the making.
I would have assumed Chelaxian was the default language except the Players Guide lists it as an additional language available to those of that heritage.
If anybody feels cheated about this, I'd suggest replacing the bonus Cheliaxian with Infernal, as that seems likey to be the modern court language thereabouts. Alternatively, you could give Cheliaxian PCs the choice among Infernal, Varisian, or Shoanti, depending on who their neighbors were before they became adventurers.
Only one PC speaks Sylvan/Elven, and that led to an interesting decision point when he was the only one who understood what the earth-fay were offering--should he tell the others?Mary, how do you get this sort of "intra-party" action with only one player? I too will run RotRL for my 1 player (my wife), and in such scenarios in the past it has been awkward (at best) to separate knowledge/decisions of a single character from the rest of the party. Any advice you can heap my way would be much appreciated (even if off topic!).
I'm tempted to say "22 years' practice" (good heavens, is it really?!) but there are some tricks as well.
--Try to make sure that NPCs talk to a specific named character, not to the player or generically to "the party". Look for chances to talk to 1-2 PCs alone.
--Draw out views from each PC. This sometimes makes for less naturalistic dialog, kind of "we're going to go around the table and hear from everyone" rather than a real fireside conversation, but it helps make sure that all the PCs have distinct views.
--If the player is really immersed in one character's point of view, the GM can sometimes improvise questions or challenges from another PC. This has to be done light-handedly but it can really help. An example would be, if the player says for one PC "I've finally decided to use the dangerous artifact" you might fire back with "PC so-and-so says, 'What changed your mind? I thought you swore never to do that.'" (Never insist on your version of what a PC says, though: if the player corrects you, back down 100%.)
--Try to avoid severe conflict of interest situations. Single player PC/PC conflict is more feasible (and fun) if the stakes are not too high. If staying in character means some embarrassment or small disappointment, a lot of players will do it; if it means instant character death, not so much.
--If the PCs are getting muddled in the player's mind, help sort them out: "You'll recall that Seoni only knows what the inscriptions said, not what the elemental said--what might she be guessing right now? Does she think Lel might be charmed?"
--Make sure there is spotlight time for every PC. It seems at first that single-player games don't need game balance as much as multi-player, and in some ways that's true, but it is *really* hard to characterize a PC who isn't able to contribute usefully to the game, or who never gets any scenes that play to their strengths. They tend to vanish into the background, maybe even worse than multi-player where they'd have a player advocating for them.
--On the player's side, you should get into the habit of going through the PCs and getting a reaction from each one on a pretty regular basis. I use index cards, character sheets or pawns/miniatures as a reminder not to miss anyone. Otherwise it is easy for the currently most useful or interesting PC to get all of the attention.
Hope this helps. I was taught a lot of this by a wonderful player group in Berkeley: I gave them a situation where they were running their usual PCs and their PCs' warped and dangerous doubles, and they showed me just what could be done with that dynamic. Wow. (That's an awfully hard scenario; the chance of serious conflict of interest was fierce, and I had one player flatly ask, "If I resolve this in my PC's favor will it look like cheating?" It didn't, though. In character all the way.)
Mary
That's great and useful advice, Mary. Thanks! Though I've been gaming 1-on-1 with my wife off & on for about 7 years (largely to success), I'm always on the lookout for ways to add to the experience.
Perhaps not so strangely, recently (within the past year) adding "real" miniatures (i.e. DDM instead of tokens, coins, chess pieces, etc.) seems to have helped spread the focus to all characters she plays. I'm sure implementing much of what you suggest will only increase that.