My group is about to start STAP, and it looks like they want to be more evil than not (the worst is probably going to be a Dagon-worshipping cleric).
Has anyone done something like this in ST, and are there any opinions -- good, bad, or otherwise?
I want them to play what they want (and they can be wildly entertaining with such roles), but I'm a bit leery of such a group's motivation to effectively deal with Lavinia (and others) and stay focused on the campaign goals.
The STAP has sidebars during the early adventures that adjust for evil characters. (You can join the lotus dragons, effectively.) Later on the STAP, the danger is pretty immediate. Evil characters will have just as much incentive as good ones. A PC in the service of Dagon is going to have some interesting interactions. Just read ahead, and think it out ahead of time. I wouldn't anticipate any major problems.
Note to all DMs: just because Lavinia as written is sort of milquetoast doesn't mean you have to keep her that way. Those of you who have access to the Shackled City AP know that evil runs in the Vanderboren family.
Lavinia could be just as ruthless as any other NPC. Perhaps she has hated whatshername (Vanthus' lover that runs the Lotus gang...uh..what's her name...)since they were children. Maybe they had a rivalry in regards to popularity, fashion, and influence. Maybe Lavinia wants to start her own guild and wipe out the opposition.
Do what you want to do. I've found in my own case that what you get out of a campaign is proportionate to what you put into it.
Edit: Rowyn Kellani. Almost bust my noggin trying to remember and then gave up and just searched other threads until I found it. Having a bad brain day. Never should've installed Brainware Vista.
Thanks for the input. I knew ST provides advice if the players chose to work for the 'other side.' My worry is that some of the motivations later down the road often depend on the group just wanting to 'do the right thing.'
What didn't occur to me, however, was making Lavinia a less virtuous patron. Maybe making her neutral -- and more ruthless -- will help the party remain committed to her agenda.
Thanks,
Jack
Evilly-aligned parties can function reasonably well in the STAP - but in terms of being able to deal with certain hostiles, they may well find themselves less effective (and in some cases gaining less XP) than a neutral/good-mixed party will.
If nothing else, playing such a party is likely to see at least one betrayal at the worst possible moment of the time by said evil characters.
However, if your group is cooperatively planning to play this party, then it could certainly be an awful lot of fun!
And yes, I expect a demon-worshipping priest to be most interesting :)
I see one really big complication towards the end of the campaign.
Of course you could rewrite much of the end game, or change Demo's ally to some other Obyrith lord. Many solutions present themselves, but all of them will require significant work from the DM.
Cheers!
Off topic at the beginning, but not later, and hopefully Paizo personnel are monitoring to address a question- WHEN will they PLEASE post map downloads for the last several issues of the Savage Tide campaign. They are just great tools for the DM running the Savage Tide, and I am now at the point to start using these maps. Downloadable maps are much easier and cleaner than scanning. Please create the map downloads for the last several issues of Dungeon!!!
As for evil parties in Savage Tide, that could really be fun, as long as, regarding intra-party interactions in particular, the PCs run them evil-smart and not evil-stupid/shortsighted. Main problem would be at the end in that regard, when it could be a free-for-all. WHich could be a lot of fun. And regarding what another poster mentioned, demon worshippers don't have to have a problem, even in the area previously mentioned in the Spoiler section of that email, IMO. Hey, every demon ultimately thinks it should rule, and alliances are temporary at best- even if previously having been in force a long time for whatever reason. Demon worshippers of any power would know that, or even be told that! Any other demon would think twice about helping another demon consolidate power to the extent Demogorgon is attempting here- because it would automatically preclude them, even as an ally-assuming they are stupid enough to think a demonic ally would still be one after one party no longer needs the alliance- from holding the reins of power themselves, as all demons think they deserve. So your demon worshipper wouldn't have a problem stopping Demogorgon at all, IMO- but he/she would be VERY likely to grab the specific power that becomes available in the last adventure, even if only ostensibly to hand off to his/her demonic patron. IMO of course.
Lastly, PLEASE PUT THE MISSING SAVAGE TIDE MAP DOWNLOADS UP!! PLEASE!!! Have i mentioned please?
I see one really big complication towards the end of the campaign. ** spoiler omitted **
I'd forgotten about that :/
For the sake of discussion, I think that many evil clerics will be in it for the power and, when their deities seek to destroy the world, are being fooled into thinking that they won't also be victims or will be part of the New World Order. Thus the players may not be so eager to help the Savage Tide along if they understand the consequences. Just an opinion.
Either way, I'll have to give the "big complication" some careful thought.
I see one really big complication towards the end of the campaign. ** spoiler omitted **I'll have to give the "big complication" some careful thought.
I see one really big complication towards the end of the campaign.
** spoiler omitted **
Cheers!
Actually I think this is not a complication but a big help
Actually I think this is not a complication but a big help
** spoiler omitted **
Ha -- cross-posted!
Sben and the Le Janke's:
Ironically, PCs that are 'bound' to Dagon and/or Malcanthet are ideal for just that reason - backstabbing thier 'bestest bud' in time-honored demonic fashion, then taking his stuff. If they fail, well ... when immortal, what's another aeon or two eh ?
there may just be the added problem that evil/neutral parties usually face enormous problems getting rid of "vile" damage.... which I somehow see the servants of Demogorogon etc. inflicting.
And that might really complicate the finale of the campaign.
Same goes for the "recruit the Eladrin" sidequest, which, if it does not happen, deprives the group of an important ally/meat shield in the final battle. Best engineer up an alternative solution for this
there may just be the added problem that evil/neutral parties usually face enormous problems getting rid of "vile" damage.... which I somehow see the servants of Demogorogon etc. inflicting.
And that might really complicate the finale of the campaign.
** spoiler omitted **
I would view that as the price of extreme moral flexibility (the spoiler as well as the vile damage)...
I would view that as the price of extreme moral flexibility (the spoiler as well as the vile damage)...
An extreme complication though (especially the met shield question) , price or no price.
Although frankly, I see "primarily evil" groups as rather an opportunistic power grab by the players concerned, unless the GM plays up the untrustworthy and bad reputation angle to the hilt. And that is usually when the whining starts... so let the pieces fall where they may - someone being so crass as to play a deon-worshipper (probably a "nice" one, all mis-understood and socially outcast for his heathen believes, but not a... I disgress )Most players want the cool powers, but none wants to truly roleplay evil, e.g. social ostracism in polite society, doing truly unspeakable things, being shunned, and lo' and behold, "good" groups gunning for you, trying to foil your plots.
oh well...
Most players want the cool powers, but none wants to truly roleplay evil, e.g. social ostracism in polite society, doing truly unspeakable things, being shunned, and lo' and behold, "good" groups gunning for you, trying to foil your plots.
oh well...
Oh, my group's Ebil characters will get what's coming to them - sooner or later the player will mess up and reveal himself to someone that can do something about it for what he/she/it is. Kudos to you nevermind for the reminder - sometimes the simplest things are forgotten...
That's the nice thing about Good in D&D - if NPC #1 can't handle it, they'll often go 'up the chain' to find someone that can, send a letter, leave an incriminating note at home, talk with all thier buddies about the horrid [insert Evil incident here] and so forth.
Funny thing about having such a 'loose moral disposition' - it's detectable by certain character types - oops.
Most players want the cool powers, but none wants to truly roleplay evil, e.g. social ostracism in polite society, doing truly unspeakable things, being shunned, and lo' and behold, "good" groups gunning for you, trying to foil your plots.
Wanna bet? :)
Actually, I agree with you, but my players (thankfully) aren't 'most players.'
Two of my group are going for the entertainment value of playing vicious, loathsome monsters (e.g. Hans Gruber was fun to watch in Die Hard) -- they could care less about access to any special abilities, and aren't using any non-core rules or options.
The third is going along for the others, and will likely not roll up an evil character. Most of my concern lies here -- whether he'll be willing to stomach some of the activites played out.
They've been warned about possible consequences :/
I actually had a Dagon-affiliated warlock, and he got on spectacularly.
I've got a half-drow rogue in my campaign, and it's working out so far. He causes some interesting role-play moments, because three of the five PCs are elves.
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The cleric of Dagon makes sense, as by Prince of Demons, it is clear that Dagon is pulling the strings behind the scenes with Demogorgon. It is easy enough to make it such that Dagon is just trying to get Demo destroyed so that he can claim the mantle of Prince of Demons. Have the cleric become privy to this as he/she becomes powerful enough to be a favored agent of Dagon. Also let them look at the thrall of Dagon PRC in Dragon. It has a great lovecraftian feel that would work really well for an evil cleric of the Prince of the Darkened Depths.
They've been warned about possible consequences :/
Speaking from experience, that is were - at least the players in my campaigns - people do flinch.
As nevermind put it, they want the chill/coolness and the power and "being hardass", but they want to be appreciated, loved heroized and accepted by their peers too.And with demonstrated "moral flexibility", that is unlikely to happen.
Two players in my campaign went all soppy and "the GM is unfair" when adoration did not manifest, one duked it out, but really went a tad too far in what he was doing "for the greater good" as he put it.
Campaign ground to a halt over the consequences of it..
I would view that as the price of extreme moral flexibility (the spoiler as well as the vile damage)...there may just be the added problem that evil/neutral parties usually face enormous problems getting rid of "vile" damage.... which I somehow see the servants of Demogorogon etc. inflicting.
And that might really complicate the finale of the campaign.
** spoiler omitted **
Hear hear.