Faust's page

Heh. One player in my campaign a few years back wanted "themed" followers from the leadership feat: All barbarians, to make his own barbarian horde with him as their Khan.
His horde was especially problematic during its "downtime" and/or when his PC was adventuring/out of touch.
Due to the (incredibly fun, I admit) inevitable chaos, eventually he had to release them as followers, including his cohort.
And give up much of his wealth to pay damages to the towns (yes plural) and countryside.
His PC was a Leader, but apparently not much of a manager. :')
He was an very "experienced player" so he got to "experience" the ramifications of a "hands-off" management style.
Just to let him know I wasn't being difficult, I occasionally polled the other players to let him know they thought my more unfortunate rulings for the results of his choices were basically common sense.
The player still laughs about his horde when we chat.
Since you are a semi-new GM I wouldn't advise letting your PC be "hoist by his own petard," however. Might hurt his ego. Discuss it ahead of time and let him know the correct interpretation of the feat, and how it will be played in your campaign (if you allow it).
I still laugh thinking about the "Headless Horde" though, as they too often were exactly that, and acted accordingly (if not maliciously).

Interesting thoughts and advice but perhaps there is a misunderstanding of the Leadership (as written of course). I believe the following is correct:
as the feat clearly says, DIFFERENT modifiers for cohorts or followers; so NOT 40 1st level followers, but rather 20 lev 1, 2 lev 2, and 1 level3 (and no followers above 3rd). His Leadership score for his cohort is 17 (stronghold bonus is for followers, not cohorts), his score for his followers is 15 (doesn't get the cohort modifiers). Hence the 20, 2 and 1 limits.
This softens the potential impact right away, and there was some great advice in this thread about the impact of a sudden influx of people/crafters of various sorts on a local populace and economy (I am not sure of the size of Sandpoint, I confess), and the money they can generate.
Note the feat also says he may "recruit" his cohort- so he should absolutely be able to seek the cohort he wants, BUT the more specific he is for his cohort's features, the farther afield he will need to go and more time and travel he will need to spend to find them!

And you were wisely advised in this thread about the impact of crafting feats, though personally as long as you adhere to the PC Wealth by Level limits and further cohort rules and guidelines in the Ultimate Campaign book you will be fine (though even then, I strongly advise no more than 1 crafting feat for the cohort, or none if you don't abide by the level limits and Ultimate Campaign cohort stuff!). We apply any items crafted to the Wealth by PC Level limits of the pc or npc receiving the item, which may not technically be as per the rules dictate IIRC, but its worked in our campaigns.

Anyway, With these rules, cohorts have not been a problem in the campaigns i've run or played in. Also, cohorts get gear based on their level from the NPC table (NOT the PC Wealth by Level table), and in your campaign the cohort's starting stats should be for the "Basic NPC" rather than the "Heroic NPC," as the latter would have the same 15 point buy your PCs used! The Basic NPC stats further limit the power of a level 5 cohort (and makes them more vulnerable, as was also wisely noted in this thread!).
I also believe the Special Power should not be tied to mundane authority (except at the highest levels, i.e. kings/queens/or barons at the least, perhaps guildmasters of large, country/region spanning guilds. Doesn't seem very special otherwise. We apply it to powers gained during adventuring (or broad based rulership/economic reach as above).
Worth noting that as written or intended, followers are NOT restricted to NPC classes. Since your PCs started with a 15 point buy and if your cohort uses the "Basic NPC" stats, you may want to follow the wise advice in this thread about limiting followers to NPC classes.
DEFINITELY read Ultimate Campaign guidelines on cohorts and followers; and the Cohorts and Companions book has some good info as well.
Also, by rule, only PCs get traits. NPCs must burn a feat to get traits, so keep that in mind with regard to Hedge Magician trait.
Ultimately, the experienced player should know that 48 followers for a level 7 PC would be ridiculous, and the feat does NOT allow for that. Even 23 plus the cohort may be too much, especially for a new GM.
S
hare that with him, and if you decide to do it- as others have said, they don't instantaneously appear, especially the cohort, and followers above 1st level IMO! Seeking cohorts with specific class features AND craft feats is problematic enough and time consuming. Finding followers with craft feats, much rarer still (it's not a poor person's game after all, where do they get the gp!?). And at 1 level 3 follower with the correct read of the Leadership table, the impact is further limited for crafters.

Lastly, worth noting that technically the player is going according to the rules, in that he is putting forward this outline to the GM for a ruling (page 143 Ultimate Campaign), but the GM must clarify what is really possible. He can ask, and its even understandable that his initial ask is unreasonable (heck why start low?), though its a bit much since he knows you are semi-new to GMing. But you can correct his mistakes (level 15, not 19, score for # of followers, etc.), which should get his attention, and explain the limitations in finding such specific followers, especially if the local population is relatively small (what is Sandpoints size?). He is simply incorrect on some stuff and ignoring other stuff (for example, where do all these NPCs get the startup $ for crafting? :') The PC initially, limiting the PCs gear options for himself. Dangerous. And ongoing Financing should include follower housing, housing and workshop upkeep, etc. Does the PC want to adventure or run a business? The latter doesnt kill as often, but can be equally heartbreaking. ;')
Most of each NPCs current wealth will be in gear (else their coin would be stolen!), so they ain't financing nuthin'! And where are they all housed? 10 druids (if the PC could even have that many, which he cannot due to leadership score 15 for followers) want to be in or very near nature, not holed up in the equivalent of a Third World sweatshop crafting away simply to sell, instead of protect and serve nature!
And what does the local church think about someone hiring away their cleric acolytes, even if of the same alignment? Conflict there! And these devout clerics might want to spread the word instead of working in the sweatshop.
As was pointed out in this thread, in other words, these are all individuals. Adding on that, though warrior classes may be content to be simply hired guards or the like (may!), spellcasters, with highly specialized education and training, will ESPECIALLY have more complex goals, devotions, and responsibilities. A cleric or druid follower (or cohort) doesn't revere their Leadership feat leader, they revere their deity/nature, and simply have a lot of respect for their Leader. A wizard/etc. has an intellectual curiosity for the arcane, and doesnt want to simply churn out magic items.
As for the cohort- with the basic stat spread the cohort better pray a foe doesn't see the cohort sniping with his wand, or worse, that smart or particularly mobile foes dont't have some of their forces circle to flank the PCs and then come upon the cohort, slaying or capturing the cohort. That'll dent the old Leadership score!
Definitely read Ultimate Campaign and Cohorts and Companions sourcebooks for keeping on top of how to oversee this. If you take the benefits of the Leadership feat, you also must deal with the complexities and drawbacks of it- least of which is gathering enough gold to initially pay them, THEN fund any initial crafting you want them to do! (Though in my campaign I don't let cohorts or followers craft just to generate $. NPCs with class levels especially would find this particularly tedious, IMO.

Thanks! I'll probably break down and just do two orders then, because I'm sure there'll be something else to get by then, to combine with this item, and I need some of the other maps for a specific scenario.
I don't feel too bad about paying the extra shipping, though: I've been very impressed with Paizo product quality across the board, I must say- I even bought the campaign setting hardcover though I am a diehard Greyhawk fan. Seemed to be a bit of "grey" in the Paizo campaign setting. :')

Faust wrote:

I should have been more clear- I ask because it says preorder October but the description says November? Any idea for an actual ship date?

Thanks!

Faust wrote:

Hey, I want to include this map pack as part of a larger order, but I don't want to have to pay extra shipping if this is sent separately because its not out yet. Any idea when this will be available? I've got 5 or so things I want to order at once to combine the shipping.

Thanks!

It should be in our warehouse in late October, but it won't hit retail until early November. We really oughta show the October date in both places...

I should have been more clear- I ask because it says preorder October but the description says November? Any idea for an actual ship date?
Thanks!

Hey, I want to include this map pack as part of a larger order, but I don't want to have to pay extra shipping if this is sent separately because its not out yet. Any idea when this will be available? I've got 5 or so things I want to order at once to combine the shipping.

Thanks!

Hey, I want to include this map pack as part of a larger order, but I don't want to have to pay extra shipping if this is sent separately because its not out yet. Any idea when this will be available? I've got 5 or so things I want to order at once to combine the shipping.
Thanks!

Off topic at the beginning, but not later, and hopefully Paizo personnel are monitoring to address a question- WHEN will they PLEASE post map downloads for the last several issues of the Savage Tide campaign. They are just great tools for the DM running the Savage Tide, and I am now at the point to start using these maps. Downloadable maps are much easier and cleaner than scanning. Please create the map downloads for the last several issues of Dungeon!!!
As for evil parties in Savage Tide, that could really be fun, as long as, regarding intra-party interactions in particular, the PCs run them evil-smart and not evil-stupid/shortsighted. Main problem would be at the end in that regard, when it could be a free-for-all. WHich could be a lot of fun. And regarding what another poster mentioned, demon worshippers don't have to have a problem, even in the area previously mentioned in the Spoiler section of that email, IMO. Hey, every demon ultimately thinks it should rule, and alliances are temporary at best- even if previously having been in force a long time for whatever reason. Demon worshippers of any power would know that, or even be told that! Any other demon would think twice about helping another demon consolidate power to the extent Demogorgon is attempting here- because it would automatically preclude them, even as an ally-assuming they are stupid enough to think a demonic ally would still be one after one party no longer needs the alliance- from holding the reins of power themselves, as all demons think they deserve. So your demon worshipper wouldn't have a problem stopping Demogorgon at all, IMO- but he/she would be VERY likely to grab the specific power that becomes available in the last adventure, even if only ostensibly to hand off to his/her demonic patron. IMO of course.
Lastly, PLEASE PUT THE MISSING SAVAGE TIDE MAP DOWNLOADS UP!! PLEASE!!! Have i mentioned please?

Heh, thats a great story, hope the school understood after you explained. In my experience it takes a bit of explaining even at higher levels. In college in the Upper Midwest- VERY close to where Erik Mona went to school!- years back we convinced the college to let me teach a D&D "Skills Warehouse" class (that being a class where an "expert" in something teaches others how to do a useful skill) for a full semester, for which I was paid the grand sum back then of $20 per hour! The school administration was surprisingly open to the idea once we showed the books and explained it. The course sold out immediately.
Then the local campus religious group found out about us and went crazy, and tried to stage a "pray-in" to stop us. Turmoil. I went to my parish priest, and then the local bishop to ask about the game (hoping for a counterpoint to the campus religious group). Both said it looked like a very fun game, no problems, it was just a game!
Of course the campus group wasn't dissuaded. They wouldn't look at the books or talk to us, though they left us alone. But after the semester their protests dissuaded the school from renewing the class, though it was a big success. It just wasn't worth the hassle to them. Won the battle, lost the war.

I well remember the bane that was player mapping--took too much time for the rare true payoffs. In college the time factor wasn't as much of a problem. But with full time jobs, then family, kids, group memberships, well, it became critical.
So I ditched it entirely. The party does have to designate a mapper of course. But I either create a players map-in sections to add piece by piece where that's important or just to throw them off once in a while-OR, as I use a lot of modified published modules, or just the maps from the modules, I scan the maps, and use Photoshop to alter the map to take out the secret doors, traps, or any other features players cannot see at first glance. Its fast and very easy to do all the maps for 2-3 adventure sessions in a few hours, including printing. We do use scale battlemaps for encounter in rooms, but it really helps to have a 1 page or 4 page taped together overview of a level for the players too.
Because it was done on the computer, even with my only average skill using those programs, there is NO WAY to tell the maps have been altered.
As a side benefit, by doing it this way I can also then create records of the adventures in pdf format, including maps and describing the PCs actions in important battles. The pdf's for our last, 3+ year campaign, totalled 600+ pages and maps of every area explored! Emailing a pdf of the last adventure right before the gaming session further speeds play and limits memory questions, like, where were we again?
The most important thing: Because our groups gaming time is limited, we maximize gaming time by players having pre-made maps-handing them a map without the secrets, then where useful handing them the same map after they find the secrets-shortens a lot of mapping AND description time and speeds their questions on room layouts. More gaming time=happier DM & Players!

Though the Wil Save column has far less immediate value to my campaign, I'll confess I've also enjoyed it and consider it a good "rounding out" addition to the mag. A page or two of this I like, and as I also have been playing for nearly as long as you-1979-I find Wil's insights on teaching kids gaming rather insightful. Teaching some myself. Wouldnt want them to expand it by any means, but I consider it a solid complement to a great mag. 'Course, I'd never turn down another map either! But lets keep Wil, IMO