Dangit, BenS! I likes how you thinks!
Now we just need the people in charge to agree ;-)
DM is correct, of course. Much is still up on the air what with the ever-forthcoming GSL and all. However, I keep making little hints and nudges to try and create some movement, for which this thread is a great help.
I can't say enough how thankful I am for everyone's interest in the trilogy.
I hate being held hostage by the GSL (well, it's not me personally, but you know what I mean). But if this thread truly is of help to you in resolving this, then I'm glad. I'll keep following it until we get some resolution, and we can go from there.
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OK
Ive gotta plan...
It involves ninjas and a sacrificial virgin on an alter made of old 2e PH's...wait thats my plan for this weekend.
All kidding aside, even if a full out print product wouldnt be feasible (as much as I would prefer it) I would be down with a pdf version. I mean if the work is already done then wouldnt it be better for a finished 3.5 pdf that could then help finance a 4e print product?
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To keep throwing ideas out and hoping 1 will stick...why not make this trilogy the 1st real (print) collaboration between Necro & Paizo? Hell, Golarion is a vast new world. I'm sure w/ some minimal retrofitting the trilogy could be placed in Golarion
Yeah I like the idea of necro's world set somwhere on Golarion. Plus if the trilogy got the treatment of the pathfinder mods that would be wicked cool.
All kidding aside, even if a full out print product wouldnt be feasible (as much as I would prefer it) I would be down with a pdf version. I mean if the work is already done then wouldnt it be better for a finished 3.5 pdf that could then help finance a 4e print product?
I believe the argument is that the GSL might not allow this to be published/produced in both 3.5 and 4.0. Until they know for sure, they couldn't take the chance of even a 3.5 pdf, if that meant potentially ruining the chance for a 4.0 print version.
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All kidding aside, even if a full out print product wouldnt be feasible (as much as I would prefer it) I would be down with a pdf version. I mean if the work is already done then wouldnt it be better for a finished 3.5 pdf that could then help finance a 4e print product?I believe the argument is that the GSL might not allow this to be published/produced in both 3.5 and 4.0. Until they know for sure, they couldn't take the chance of even a 3.5 pdf, if that meant potentially ruining the chance for a 4.0 print version.
I see...If thats the case then that would truly suck.
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All kidding aside, even if a full out print product wouldnt be feasible (as much as I would prefer it) I would be down with a pdf version. I mean if the work is already done then wouldnt it be better for a finished 3.5 pdf that could then help finance a 4e print product?I believe the argument is that the GSL might not allow this to be published/produced in both 3.5 and 4.0. Until they know for sure, they couldn't take the chance of even a 3.5 pdf, if that meant potentially ruining the chance for a 4.0 print version.
And we now know the GSL does not allow it, so they were right to be cautious.
However, I don't see Slumbering Tsar on the (new?) list of proposed 4th edition products on the Necromancer website.
I want all three adventures in one big book for 3.5 and/or Pathfinder.
In full color.
With a set of nice maps.
And player handouts.
And my back/shoulders massaged by a pretty masseuse while I DM the thing...
That's all. ;)
Dave Mage for President!!!
The ball is still rolling on this ever so slowly. Nonetheless progress is being made with developments occurring as late as yesterday. The release of the GSL will clarify a lot of things that have kind of been up in the air, so it could speed up now.
Anyway, that's about as cryptic as I can make it and still sound like I've got insider info while actually having nothing official to announce. ;-) I just wanted to drop in and say we are getting somewhere with this, we're just not there yet.
I will say this. The outcome will probably have a lot to do with what you, as the consumer, want.
we want MORE VAUGHN
I will say this. The outcome will probably have a lot to do with what you, as the consumer, want.
Looks as if things are turning for the worse, in respect to seeing this in 3.5, sadly with the new restrictions in the GSL coming to light. Any thoughts, Greg?
Uh oh. Pett has found the thread. Time to go underground.
P.S. Thanks, Rich! :-)
but I know where you live Greg...I KNOW...
On another note If the GSL forces you guys to make a choice as to what edition to support, I would still like to see this in 3.5 format,full color, glossy pages, and hard core death to PC's!
I would too but its highly unlikely. Clark is really geeked about 4E and seems dead set on Necromancer supporting it. So... unless he REALLY dislikes the GSL, Necromancer staying 3.5 or going Pathfinder just aint gonna happen. :(
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Hello, Greg. Hello, all.
I've just read through this topic, front to back. I'm going to ask some questions, full in the knowledge that I haven't paid Necromancer any money, and neither I nor anyone else have a "right" to this product. But everyone who has seen "Slumberin' Tsar" agrees that it's a terrific product, that would enhance the entire OGL-community.
1) Do I understand that last October's announcements --that "Slumberin' Tsar 1" was already printed and being shipped back from China-- were lies?
1a) If that word upsets you, feel free to replace "lies" with "wee exaggerations" or "misleading hyperbole".
2) There are profitable RPG-publishing models based entirely on pdf / print-on-demand methods. Open Design, for example. Presumably, the pages for "Slumbering Tsar" were at least set, because in January Necromancer announcd the product for relase the next month. So, all the prduction expenses have already been paid.
Is it possible to offer the pdf's / Lulu printing option? If not, why not?
3) If Necromancer is going to publish 4th Edition-compatable product, then "Slumberin' Tsar" will have to be converted to 4th Edition, something that Greg himself considered discourageingly daunting. More seriously, big chunks of the 4th Edition rules are going to be included in future products (the 2009 and 2010 PHB's, for example), so it's likely to be difficult and several years down the pike.
Why does anyone think this is preferable to releasing them as 3.5-compatable, now?
Thank you for your attention.
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1) That is what was said on the Necromancer boards but official people but I do not know for sure and can't remember the details.
2) Yes there are - I love Blackdirge and Skeletonkey for example.
3) I have been saying all along how much I want this and bad I feel over the turn of events.
My sincerest hope would have been for Necro to abandon the project and let someone else (Sinister or Paizo) publish the 3.5 PDFs
If it goes to 4e then I doubt WotC will let Necro release 3.5 version according to what I am reading about the new license. I vote for some fan like BV210 to release them (wink wink).
Hello, Greg. Hello, all.
I've just read through this topic, front to back. I'm going to ask some questions, full in the knowledge that I haven't paid Necromancer any money, and neither I nor anyone else have a "right" to this product. But everyone who has seen "Slumberin' Tsar" agrees that it's a terrific product, that would enhance the entire OGL-community.
1) Do I understand that last October's announcements --that "Slumberin' Tsar 1" was already printed and being shipped back from China-- were lies?
1a) If that word upsets you, feel free to replace "lies" with "wee exaggerations" or "misleading hyperbole".
2) There are profitable RPG-publishing models based entirely on pdf / print-on-demand methods. Open Design, for example. Presumably, the pages for "Slumbering Tsar" were at least set, because in January Necromancer announcd the product for relase the next month. So, all the prduction expenses have already been paid.
Is it possible to offer the pdf's / Lulu printing option? If not, why not?
3) If Necromancer is going to publish 4th Edition-compatable product, then "Slumberin' Tsar" will have to be converted to 4th Edition, something that Greg himself considered discourageingly daunting. More seriously, big chunks of the 4th Edition rules are going to be included in future products (the 2009 and 2010 PHB's, for example), so it's likely to be difficult and several years down the pike.
Why does anyone think this is preferable to releasing them as 3.5-compatable, now?
Thank you for your attention.
Gosh, Chris, please dont suggest Greg (or others) are liars. That's just harsh. We are all just gamers in the tough situation of edition changeover. :)
So, to your questions:
1 and 1a. I dont recall anyone said they were being shipped back. I think Bill used the "slow boat to China" jokingly. We do our printing in China with Kenzer. We had pre-press pdfs and had signed off on the actual print galleys. They were done. The plug was pulled just as the presses were about to roll. Kenzer didnt want to bear the print cost for a product that, with declining 3E sales, may just sit in the warehouse. Now, obviously, the module is great and would sell some. But we make our decisions in conjunction with our print partner and BOTH Necro and Kenzer felt it was better to halt printing. A "3.5 first, then 4E later" strategy didnt seem like a good one at the time, and still isnt.
2. True. But at this stage that is not the way we distribute books. AND I think this series is too awesome. I want to put it all out for the same edition with the same awesome production.
3. I am reasonably familiar with the 4E rules and I dont think it is going to be that hard. And ALL of our authors who are in the same situation (Greg isnt the only person whose 3E book got pushed back for 4E) are geeked to get to work converting.
Why does anyone think it is preferable? How about Necro and its print partners. Because you have to pay the printer up front, then you only make the cash back on sales. And though there are many vocal fans, 3E product sales have been declining steadily, and fell sharply followign the announcment for everyone except Paizo, who uses a subscription base and has an audience from its Dungeon/Dragon days. And, knowing 4E is on the horizion, we cant afford to have all our liquid cash tied up in a 3.5 print run that isnt selling which then ties our hands to print future products. And it doesnt pencil out to only print 800 copies in China. Your margin goes away. Its just not a profitable business model. I'm a gamer first, but I have responsibilities to others, who get paid for products out of the sales that we make--writers, artits, layout people, etc.
Why does anyone think it is preferable? How about Necro and its print partners. Because you have to pay the printer up front, then you only make the cash back on sales. And though there are many vocal fans, 3E product sales have been declining steadily, and fell sharply followign the announcment for everyone except Paizo, who uses a subscription base and has an audience from its Dungeon/Dragon days. And, knowing 4E is on the horizion, we cant afford to have all our liquid cash tied up in a 3.5 print run that isnt selling which then ties our hands to print future products. And it doesnt pencil out to only print 800 copies in China. Your margin goes away. Its just not a profitable business model. I'm a gamer first, but I have responsibilities to others, who get paid for products out of the sales that we make--writers, artits, layout people, etc.
Clark, thanks for posting and clearing up some issues here. I think I had an earlier suggestion that Necro team up w/ Paizo as the print partner for the ST trilogy, and modify it slightly so it fits in Golarion. It's released to the ever-growing numbers of Paizo fans as 3.5 (or even 3.P) as an optional Gamemastery Module series. And I'll commit to $500 of pre-orders for the 1st one, and distribute them for free back to fans to drum up further interest.
How does that sound?
Stay tuned.
With the GSL situation, things may get better with regard to Necromancer publishing stuff for Pathfinder.
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Does Necro honestly not realize they've lost some people (by that I mean paying customers) with this whole mess?
I think they do realize this. Clark is a good guy who honestly wants whats best for the company, the authors, and the community. He seemed deeply distressed and concerned by the 3.5/4e divide. He seems convinced that 4e was the best route for Necromancer Games survivial. He seems pretty excited about 4e, and while he knows that he's going to lose some customers/fans he must think that he will retain and or gain more customers/fans from the new edition.
While I feel a little disapointed by this myself as I wont be moving to 4e, I truly hope that the Paizo/Necromancer partnership allows for a limited crossover. Specifically the Slumbering Tsar series and a Pathfinder edtion of the Tome of Horror's.
Ive actually been holding off on this thread until the GSL was available so we can see what will come of all this.
Ive actually been holding off on this thread until the GSL was available so we can see what will come of all this.
Me too. But it's been out for a little while now so I thought I'd bump the thread. I don't think Clark comes here too often, but maybe Greg has something new to report. Greg, anything new on this front?
Nope. Nothing new at present (but I appreciate you asking). This stuff is all way above my pay grade right now. The GSL does certainly create some interesting possibilities, though.Ive actually been holding off on this thread until the GSL was available so we can see what will come of all this.Me too. But it's been out for a little while now so I thought I'd bump the thread. I don't think Clark comes here too often, but maybe Greg has something new to report. Greg, anything new on this front?
Ok, Greg. Thanks for the quick response. I'll keep on holding out hope for the best. And by "best", I mean a 3.5 version ;-)
It looks like we may get a Tome of Horrors for Pathfinder.
My two hopes left for Necromancer (re: Pathfinder) are Tegal Manor and the Slumbering Tsar series.
If I can get one or both of those, I'll be a happy camper.
Otherwise, it seems Necromancer will be full speed ahead supporting 4E.
I'll keep on holding out hope for the best. And by "best", I mean a 3.5 version ;-)
Me too.
http://necromancergames.yuku.com/topic/9828
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I was wondering if there was anykind of hope that this series could revert back to Greg so that he could make changes to it and then shop it around for publication, much like Ari Marmell and his Advanced Player's Guide was. Does NG or Greg have any interest in doing this? And would Paizo consider publishing something like this either as part of the Golarion setting or as an independant product like Monte Cooks Complete Book of Experimental Might rumour?
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I was wondering if there was anykind of hope that this series could revert back to Greg so that he could make changes to it and then shop it around for publication, much like Ari Marmell and his Advanced Player's Guide was. Does NG or Greg have any interest in doing this? And would Paizo consider publishing something like this either as part of the Golarion setting or as an independant product like Monte Cooks Complete Book of Experimental Might rumour?
If it's half as Greg as I imagine it to be anyone should jump at the chance to put their name on it...demon lords truly are evil.
Well, I hope this can eventually be released for Pathfinder.
*crosses fingers*
Creative Director
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Well, I hope this can eventually be released for Pathfinder.
*crosses fingers*
Of course, if we release it for Pathfinder, then there comes the question of where is the adventure set? Necromancer's world? Golarion? Some sort of weirdo combination of the two? Greg's right that the adventure's got a LOT of in-world continuity from the Necromancer Games line (I know; I've seen the first part of Slumbering Tsar, after all...), and setting it in Golarion would rightly annoy the NG fans who've been waiting so long for it. That's not something I'd like to see happen. At the same point, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us to publish something under Pathfinder that's NOT set in Golarion... it would confuse the brands and everything.
Again, the best case scenario, I think, is to have it published under the Necromancer Games logo for 3.5, since that was the game system the adventure was designed for. And that isn't gonna happen until the revised GSL finally comes out.
For the record: rebuilding the adventure for 4th edition would be like colorizing a black and white movie (or watching a color movie in black and white). The story is built for a specific medium, and translating it to the other medium isn't the best way to experience it. There's great movies in black and white AND in color, but they're different mediums despite the fact that they're both movies.
(I know; I've seen the first part of Slumbering Tsar, after all)
I am so jealous of you right now.
Well, I hope this can eventually be released for Pathfinder.
*crosses fingers*
Of course, if we release it for Pathfinder, then there comes the question of where is the adventure set? Necromancer's world? Golarion? Some sort of weirdo combination of the two? Greg's right that the adventure's got a LOT of in-world continuity from the Necromancer Games line (I know; I've seen the first part of Slumbering Tsar, after all...), and setting it in Golarion would rightly annoy the NG fans who've been waiting so long for it. That's not something I'd like to see happen. At the same point, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us to publish something under Pathfinder that's NOT set in Golarion... it would confuse the brands and everything.
Again, the best case scenario, I think, is to have it published under the Necromancer Games logo for 3.5, since that was the game system the adventure was designed for. And that isn't gonna happen until the revised GSL finally comes out.
I didn't think this last scenario was even possible based on what Clark has said, although I would love to see it. However, I'm confused as to why the revised GSL has to come out to make such a thing possible. What does the GSL have to do with a 3.5 product? (Or do you mean (IIRC) the provision restricting use of the OGL if a company adopts the GSL?)
As for releasing it under Pathfinder, I just figured Necromancer would release it through you as "compatible with OGL/3.5 and the Pathfinder RPG", not a Golarion adventure.
Your statement about confusing the brands, however, is an interesting point, but that unfortunately means that should Necro decide to publish this or anything for the Pathfinder RPG that they would be subject to creative restrictions (make it fit Golarion). Potentially makes the partnership a bit odd, no? (I'm probably missing something, but what seemed like a match made in heaven when it was first announced doesn't make sense to me now.)
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Well, I hope this can eventually be released for Pathfinder.
*crosses fingers*
Of course, if we release it for Pathfinder, then there comes the question of where is the adventure set? Necromancer's world? Golarion? Some sort of weirdo combination of the two? Greg's right that the adventure's got a LOT of in-world continuity from the Necromancer Games line (I know; I've seen the first part of Slumbering Tsar, after all...), and setting it in Golarion would rightly annoy the NG fans who've been waiting so long for it. That's not something I'd like to see happen. At the same point, it doesn't make a lot of sense for us to publish something under Pathfinder that's NOT set in Golarion... it would confuse the brands and everything.
Again, the best case scenario, I think, is to have it published under the Necromancer Games logo for 3.5, since that was the game system the adventure was designed for. And that isn't gonna happen until the revised GSL finally comes out.
For the record: rebuilding the adventure for 4th edition would be like colorizing a black and white movie (or watching a color movie in black and white). The story is built for a specific medium, and translating it to the other medium isn't the best way to experience it. There's great movies in black and white AND in color, but they're different mediums despite the fact that they're both movies.
Excuse me? Publish as 3.5? Yes because new 3.5 products are selling so well these days right? Sarcasm aside I think that the time spent converting it to PFRPG would be well worth it as NG fans, me included, have moved onto other stuff, namely Golarion.
You're dead on about the 4E though. Bleh.