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Before beginning STAP, my group is running Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (using the excellent conversion from these boards) as a try-out for potential players and for variant rules. I'm curious about what variants folks further along the path are using & how it's worked out.
We are considering:
- armor converts damage to non-lethal (from UA/d20srd.com)
- weapon groups (as above)
- rakasta and phanaton as PC races
- language groups (with each bonus language you're fluent in you can also speak haltingly in other languages that use the same alphabet)
- scale-independent turns and durations (at 5 ft per square scale, each turn lasts 6 seconds: at 500 ft per square, each turn lasts 10 minutes: regardless of scale, you get a move and standard action each turn, and spells last turns rather than rounds/minutes etc., so in playtest we had summoned monsters on the 500 ft./square wilderness map that lasted for 70 minutes 'cause we didn't drop down into combat rounds, where their 7 turns of summon would have flown by much faster)
- signature items (PCs can choose one weapon that they get to 'purchase' enhancements for by devoting gp up to 1/3rd character wealth to some roleplay-appropriate purpose: they can 'earmark' gold so it'll work even when they're out in the middle of the ocean).
- character creation using 4d6 in fixed order, plus a 7th roll that represents your choice of Attractiveness, Fame/Infamy, Largesse, or Social Standing, each with different skill synergies in appropriate situations: you can also bring up one of your other six stats to equal this 7th roll
Think that's it. The ones I'm most concerned about are nonlethal damage (which I want to reduce resting while the cleric respells, and to make it easier to capture the party instead of TPKing them) and universal duration (which I want because I hate rushing through dungeons trying to find the next encounter before your buffs drop, and because I like the OD&D idea of turns being a day or 10 minutes or one combat round, with everyone making one action/turn).
Personally I have used many variants and House Rules in my day including
-Class Defense Bonuses (ala Star Wars Revised): This really doesn't stand up well in my experience. Touch ACs become much higher, and players don't stack that well against monsters at higher levels (except their touch ac)
-Armor as Damage Reduction: This works okay. It doesn't change the work too much, but it doesn't work without doing class defense, which as I've said doesn't work too well, in my exp.
-Vitality/Wound System: I have used this ever since playing a SW game in 3.5. I like it, but it requires a lot of extra bookkeeping and it grossly overpowers monsters of gargantuan or colossal size (x4 and x8 wounds respectively). A dragon (if played properly) is a horrific opponent, give it Conx8 Wounds to cover critical damage (which in this system just does wound damage, not x2 or x3 multipliers) can make them WAY too nasty.
-Influence (adopted from Game of Thrones d20): I love this system. Each class gets to devote a certain number of influence points in various NPCs or organizations as they get more influential. They also get certain Base numbers to bolster these influence points with certain organizations/people if they have a specific position or relationship to the entity in question. Also, devoting a few (usually 6-10) points into these at level up isn't hardly onerous at all.
-Reputation: I use this as well. I like players understanding just how well known their characters are. This is a reward that you give your characters based on their actions, noble/heroic PC become actual Heros, while bad/ruthless PCs become notorious villains. Its simple to do (just figure during XP figuring) and it also seems to get players more invested in their characters.
-Weapon Groups (UA): Love them! Sure it makes EWP a lot less useful, but I still love being able to customize a character's weapon training.
-Grim and Gritty Fatigue (Game of Thrones d20): Rules for how long someone can fight before becoming fatigues, and once fatigued, exhausted. I like the premise, I like realism and grittiness, but it is a pain to keep track of, too many things factor in, and it really can make your characters get killed too easily. Just keep throwing kobolds at them in small wave, they get tired, then exhausted and then they die.
I would say that this is better as a descriptive DM tool than as something measured by a specific score, so I discarded this rule.
-Honor (from Rokugan d20): I like and use this for Monks, Samurai, any oriental adventures character. I also use a variant for Knights and Paladins. I like for characters of this sort to know just how Honorable they are and to realize what the consequences of certain actions can be, especially since all of these classes have a Code of Conduct. Nice to have a system that actually fits with that to measure it.
All in all I have gotten to the point where I just use what people seem to enjoy, not the ones that have bogged down my game in the past. So, of course, the fit is different for each gaming group, but many of these rules are awesome. Make sure to ask your players and don't use something that only the DM seems to like. Thats NEVER good.
The players in my game agreed to two big rules changes:
1) Spell Fatigue - Spells & Spell-Like Abilities deal non-lethal damage to the caster as the spell is cast/ability activated. This was an idea to pull back the power of spellcasters vs. fighter and rogue types without drastically altering too many rules. The result has been not as intended, as the spellcasters have been going after reserve feats (supernatural abilities) and Fey heritage feats (DR to counter the damage). However, it has forced different builds than what we're used to seeing, on both sides of the cardboard screen. That refreshing bit has made the rule worth it this time around.
2) Affiliation requirement for PrCs. Each prestige class entered has an additional requirement - 10 affiliation points in a related affiliation that have not already been counted toward the requirement of another prestige class. With the six neato-keen affiliations presented in STAP and a recent dirge of cherry picking prestige classes, this seemed an excellent way to bring in more flavor and strengthen the suspension of disbelief. 10 affiliation points is relatively easy to get by around 6th level in STAP, as long as you're participating in the storyline. It's also given me several hooks I can rely upon - which is nice considering the chaotic nature of the players.
We're right around 6th level now, and I'm starting to hear the complaints from the power gamers that they can't retire their characters to bring in a prestige classed character of their choice, due to the fact that they must rely on story-related affiliation awards to get that first 10 points. Good. Characters bouncing in and out of the game is bad for suspension of disbelief, and hard on me as the DM. Everyone else has taken quite well to the idea - it really has enhanced the game.
Contributor
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We do death at -CON score rather than a flat -10. Sometimes that makes all the difference in the world. I think we picked that up from an old Gamma World edition.
We do that in Erik's Age of Worms campaign. It has kept many characters alive over the last couple years. Unfortunately, it didn't help my ninja, Vyth, all that much. Alas. :\
In my group, we have a system called the Instant Kill which works like this: if when attempting to confirm a critical hit you roll a 20, you must then make a second confirmation roll. If that succeeds, and the target of your attack has a number of hit dice equal to or less than your character level, the victim of the attack is instantly, and very gruesomely, killed. The character who performed the Instant Kill then gets 2 Cool Points (normal crits that end with the target's death gain characters 1 Cool Point).
Cool Points are like action points that are awarded to characters who do awesome things. The level of awesomeness is judged by the DM. Examples of awesome actions include saying one-liners(like in my Savage Tide game, when in the Bullywug Gambit Navesh Wyvernsting sneak attacked the party rogue Valen Arkadis, Valen (an agent of the Lord Mayor of Greyhawk) spun around and, right before attacking, said, "Get your hands off me, you damn dirty ape!"), killing things in creative and/or extremely violent ways (such as crits and Instant Kills), and other cinematic actions. Good roleplaying is another situation where Cool Points can be rewarded.
We also have a very informal system where fighters, monks, and ninja can come up with their own "special moves" that have special effects. The players must make a list of moves, and then in battle, they can use a move and the DM comes up with what bonuses the move provides, based on the name and description of the move. Special moves can only be used a certain number of times per encounter, somewhat like Tome of Battle's maneuver system but the effects aren't quite as strong.
2) Affiliation requirement for PrCs. Each prestige class entered has an additional requirement - 10 affiliation points in a related affiliation that have not already been counted toward the requirement of another prestige class. With the six neato-keen affiliations presented in STAP and a recent dirge of cherry picking prestige classes, this seemed an excellent way to bring in more flavor and strengthen the suspension of disbelief. 10 affiliation points is relatively easy to get by around 6th level in STAP, as long as you're participating in the storyline. It's also given me several hooks I can rely upon - which is nice considering the chaotic nature of the players.
I've started doing something like this in my RL game. It's not as specific as requiring X number of affiliation points, but I've had to lay down the law and declare that players may level up and even multiclass in any basic class without requiring any kind of training, but all PrCs require specific training, and usually membership in some group or organization, which has to be roleplayed out and takes time and usually money.
Our other DM has restricted everyone to one PrC, which I feel is too restrictive.
I like the affiliation requirement idea a lot, I may have to use that one. I currently use 2 house rules for my group.
1. skill system: In my system, skills can be Primary (class level + 3 ranks), Secondary (class level / 2 ranks) or Cross-class (0 ranks). At 1st level, each skill listed as a Class Skill for the PC becomes a free Secondary skill. Each PC gets a number of Upgrade Points which they can use to promote a Secondary skill to a Primary or a Cross-class into a Secondary. The number of Upgrade Points given at 1st level is (class base skill points + Int bonus + 1 for humans). PCs get 1 extra upgrade point at each even level. If a PC later multiclasses into a class with more skill points, they immediately receive new Upgrade Points, as well as new free Secondary skills.
2. friendly fire: If someone uses an area effect damage spell on an enemy in melee combat, I also make the PCs in melee with the enemy make a save. If they fail their save, they take half damage from the area effect.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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- scale-independent turns and durations (at 5 ft per square scale, each turn lasts 6 seconds: at 500 ft per square, each turn lasts 10 minutes: regardless of scale, you get a move and standard action each turn, and spells last turns rather than rounds/minutes etc., so in playtest we had summoned monsters on the 500 ft./square wilderness map that lasted for 70 minutes 'cause we didn't drop down into combat rounds, where their 7 turns of summon would have flown by much faster)
Can you explain this more? It seems interesting, but it seems like there would be a lot of issues. Do things scale down when you zoom in? So, if you summoned a monster while at 100x resolution, which therefore lasts 70 minutes, and you experience a random encounter which pushes things down to 1x resolution after 24 minutes, how much longer will the summoned monster last? Isn't the system also problematic with detection spells with short durations? I'm realy curious and would like to hear more.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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3. Spellcasters are allowed to use their bonus spell slots from high
ability scores by filling them with lower level spells.
Eh? That's core rules, you can always fill any high level slot with any lower level spell. From the SRD:
Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.
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Can you explain this more? It seems interesting, but it seems like there would be a lot of issues. Do things scale down when you zoom in? So, if you summoned a monster while at 100x resolution, which therefore lasts 70 minutes, and you experience a random encounter which pushes things down to 1x resolution after 24 minutes, how much longer will the summoned monster last? Isn't the system also problematic with detection spells with short durations? I'm really curious and would like to hear more.
Yes, if you have a spell that lasts for 7 turns, you might spend 4 turns at the wilderness scale, hit a wandering monster, and then have the spell run out 3 combat rounds in, for a total duration of 40 minutes and 18 seconds (but a casting time of 10 minutes!). I like the way it lets normally combat-only spells have other uses: in playtest, a summoned monkey carried a rope up a 40' cliff, which would otherwise have been an insurmountable obstacle for a low-level party. I haven't worked out how to handle spells with longer durations yet: one of the advantages of some spells is clearly supposed to be that they last longer, which is eliminated if every duration type is reduced to 1 turn/caster level. The thing I like best is just the discipline of having dungeon or wilderness exploration handled in turns of 1 or 10 minutes, instead of doing strict turn-based actions in combat and a loose meta-time outside it. The original Tamoachan module also uses real-time duration - if the players spend 10 minutes debating their next action, then one turn passes on the 500' scale.
One thing to note is that you control what duration/scale you're using. Usually you go to 10 minute turns because nothing much is happening. Are you thinking about divination spells like find the path where the duration also controls the distance you can travel using it?
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3. Spellcasters are allowed to use their bonus spell slots from high
ability scores by filling them with lower level spells.
Eh? That's core rules, you can always fill any high level slot with any lower level spell. From the SRD:
Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.
Then I may have been misunderstanding the SRD from the beginning. As I understood the RAW, if a first level wizard has an INT of 18, he gets one first level, one second level, one third level, and one fourth level bonus spell. However, he can't yet cast 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level spells, and therefore could not use those spell slots. I allow the caster to use them on 0 or 1st level spells.
Then I may have been misunderstanding the SRD from the beginning. As I understood the RAW, if a first level wizard has an INT of 18, he gets one first level, one second level, one third level, and one fourth level bonus spell. However, he can't yet cast 2nd, 3rd, or 4th level spells, and therefore could not use those spell slots. I allow the caster to use them on 0 or 1st level spells.
3. Spellcasters are allowed to use their bonus spell slots from high
ability scores by filling them with lower level spells.
Eh? That's core rules, you can always fill any high level slot with any lower level spell. From the SRD:
Spell Slots
The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his or her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower level.
I believe said wizard must still meet the level requirements to have access to the slots in question. I believe the point he was trying to make is that a 12th level wizard with a 15 Int could use his 6th level slots to prepare his choice of 0-5th level spells. On the other hand a 1st level wizard with 18 Int does not yet have access to he 2nd - 4th level bonus spells yet.
Cheers!
I dole out free skills.
Players get two signature skills maxed without spending points.
Knowledge skills cost 1/4.
I give players this array to create their characters.
8 10 12 14 16 18 with two bonus points that can go on any but the 18, but only one per stat. This makes the first enhancement bonus at 4th level mean something, as it makes two odd scores.
Max hp for characters.
Clobbering as per DMG.
Death at -con.
Casters who preapare spells can cast any spell they know with their bonus spell slots, spontaneously.
Spontaneous casters can spend two slots of a level to preapare a spell that they could not ordinarily cast of that level from a book or scroll, if they have access to a copy of the spell. scrolls are consumed as normal, and are cast at the level of the character, not the creator.
Casters recharge their bonus spells over time. After an hour of rest, the caster gets his 0th level spells back and his bonus first level spells. After two hours, second, three third, and so on.
All characters regenerate their con bonus every hour. So a fighter with a con bonus of +4 gets four hit points back an hour.
If the confirmation of a critical is itself a threat, and the threat is confirmed, the critical does maximum damage.
A 1 is a critical failure. Something bad or embarrassing always happens, depending on context.
If the confirmation of a critical is itself a threat, and the threat is confirmed, the critical does maximum damage.
I am going to do something similar, if a threat roll is a natural 20, the damage modifier adds x1 (or x2 if testing shows x1 isn't enough) and it generates an 'extra threat' which they need to confirm with another roll. extra threats are cumulative, so that as long as a character (or monster!) rolls 20's, they do extra damage.
I am going to have to consider that max damage idea as well, but the two together may be overkill. I may just modify mine to fire an extra threat when the confirmation roll is itself a critical threat.
It gets tricky with Keen, Improved Critical and expanded crit range weapons like Longswords and Scimitars...
Cheers!
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It gets tricky with Keen, Improved Critical and expanded crit range weapons like Longswords and Scimitars...
Cheers!
I don't think keen and improved critical stack anymore...they did in 3e, but not in 3.5e. Unless of course that is another variant or house rule you use. I can see how the bonuses would stack (expanded crit range is inherent to the weapon, keen is an enhancement bonus, Improved Critical is a competence bonus), but for balance reasons, they don't. Having a longsword that threatens on 15-20 is a bit unbalanced, IMHO.
I use the Classes and Enech (Honor) system from the Slaine RPG for my old campaign, mixing in the Magic system from Arcana Evolved for more literate areas. Humans don't have access to Sorcery, only Wizardry, with the Elves, Gnomes, xvarts and Ogres being the races who throw up Sorcerers. I've found that creating that kind of restriction lends itself to an oddly high powered game for those who follow a magical career. I find the idea of enormous sacks of cash a bit much, so my world operates on a Celtic Barter system. The Gallowglasses from Dragon have proved to be a big favorite with my lads.
- Death at -CON. Being brought below 0 HP causes temporary ability damage (disfiguring and crippling wounds). Makes players more sensible to getting taken out, but increases overall survivability. Also makes oposition taken down and healed up for interrogation far less dangerous ---> the players are less queasy to so...
- Barbarian can only be taken at 1st level ( it's a matter of being raised, not a career change), but other class levels may be taken in interruption of Babarian levels. Exception to this is the spirit shaman, a spirit shaman can always take levels in barbarian later, sicne they stem from the same culture.
- some PrCs preclude the taking of other PrCs. Almost all PrCs are bound to ingame organisations who both select for membership, and keep out an eye on members "drifiting away" from their doctrine and ethos. Application for membership is to be roleplayed
- Alternate classes from UA (Bardic options, the cloistered cleric, alternative fighting styles and barabric heritages etc.)
a lot of tweaking on class features too
It gets tricky with Keen, Improved Critical and expanded crit range weapons like Longswords and Scimitars...
Cheers!
I don't think keen and improved critical stack anymore...they did in 3e, but not in 3.5e. Unless of course that is another variant or house rule you use. I can see how the bonuses would stack (expanded crit range is inherent to the weapon, keen is an enhancement bonus, Improved Critical is a competence bonus), but for balance reasons, they don't. Having a longsword that threatens on 15-20 is a bit unbalanced, IMHO.
Wasn't suggesting that they stack, only that those are some properties that extend the crit range of a weapon. The extended crit range can make those crit damage extensions mildly complicated.
Cheers!
Hi,
I just begin dming STAP and we use the spell point system of the unearthed arcane.
We also use a 78 points buy system (max 18, min 5 before appliying racial modifiers) to create PC.
I think i'll use the -CON instead of -10.
We have the following variant rules-
- We don't allow using teleport spells to arrive indoors or underground (attempting to avoid the 'scry and teleport' tactic).
- Save vs death becomes save or dying. I roll a d10 and that becomes the character's negative HP total.
- When you reach -10 you are not dead. The character must make a saving throw equal to their negative HP total.
- I allowed characters to have a starting occupation similar to D20 Modern rules. Basically this meant they might have a couple of skills as class skills that they normally wouldn't have or maybe a minor bonus feat to start the campaign.
I think that's about it. So far they have all worked out just fine. I wish I would have use affiliations a bit more but maybe I can make some adjustments (we just finished The Lightless Depths).
I/We use a different -10 rule. After -10 it is a fort save verses damage to stay alive. So -13 would be a DC 13 fort save.
Characters heal their level + con modifier per day(minimum 1).
We are using the Unfettered and Warmain from AE, as well as racial levels from AE and UA.
Using Preferred Class benefits from Iron Kingdoms Lock and Load.
We use Changelings, Shifters and Warforged from Eberron
and we added Spirit Folk (renamed)and we also added Orcs
All characters follow the fight feat progression scale, Fighters just get double.
Critical hit deck: X2 crit weapons = x1 damage plus card. X3 crit weapons = X2 plus card and so in.
Action Points. Wow! How cool this has been for the game. 2-4 points per player (not character) per session. I did change up some feats as suggested by UA to incorporate Action Points. They have been fairly popular with all the players, and none of them chosen the same Action Point/feat combinations.
Incorporated almost all of the sudden magic feats, except for Quicken Spell.
Created a small list of Talents. Each character gets one at 1st level, from a list culled from Iron Heros and AE and FR players guide.
Added Knowledge (Common)[Int] as a class skill for everyone.
Added Sneak, took out Hide/Move silently.
Added Perception, took out Spot Listen and Search.
Added Alchemy back in.
Trying to get Iajitsu to work well. This has been hard.
Using Intimidate with some of the effects of the 9 swords book.
Love the honor system from Rokugan D20. Players who have ignored it up untill recently are feeling/seeing the effects, those Players who have followed it are really enjoying the depth it added to the game.
Extended negative HP: Instead of death at -10 is it death a -10 + Con Mod. So a creature with a 16 Con will die at -13 HP
Affiliations required for entrance into PrCs. I was wondering how I going to do this part exactly but I think I’ll use one that was mentions above.
Character generation 4d6, drop the lowest, reroll ones.
Level adjustment Buy-off, but they will appear in the form of achievements or awards for the players. (From UA)
Bard and Paladin are PrC from UA.
Paladin PrC has “very” laxed entry requirements and is a far more powerful class all around because of it. If even one of my players would “TRY” to be lawful good for once I’d be happy.
Marshal Class has a full BAB, and gains Adrenaline Boost from PHB II in addition to it’s norm. Unfortunately this seems lost on the Marshals player, and thus far he’s been more of a hindrance then a help to the party…
All my players started with a Signature magic item, generally something along the lines a single +1 weapon or armour.
Craft points from UA is being used
Level up system is based off of the "XP-less system" I've seen posted on these boards... but that is proving to be more of a hinderence, I'm thinking I'm switching back to the normal system.
And that's what I'm using.
Hows the Armor/Damage Conversion method working for other people?
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My group is using armor converts damage to non-lethal: we agreed that armor provides DR at the cost of reduced protection from being hit would screw up the scaling of D&D math from levels 1-20. Our subdual conversion variant is about to get their first real workout, as the PCs are trapped under Parrot Island.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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We're using Action points - a variant on the UA system I found on enworld (I think it was piratecat's). It's been great so far - the party would have been wiped out several times if it wasn't for the "use an action point to emulate a feat if you meet the requirements" option.
Taking out one extra opponent with an 'Action Point Cleave' or getting an extra AoO with an Action Point for a one-off Combat Reflexes makes a big difference!
Also using Death at -CON and the choice of half hit-points per dice (round up) on levelling.
Yup. That's a good choice. Rolling or half. When my two d4ers asked about leveling up for the first time, they said "Do I roll or do I take half?" I told them to choose. One rolled a four. The other rolled a one.
Anyway.
My favorite variant is my critical miss system. It evolved from my rhagodesas rolling far to many ones. So instead of describing the rhagodesa trip and fall and dealing damage to itself, I simply gave the player it attacked an attack of opportunity. Soon I was doing this for all my monsters, even the ones with things that they can drop.
This rule works far less well against ranged attacks. The string usually snaps back and busts the bow.
We use:
Hit points as Iron Heroes. d4 + D&D Hit dice max - 4. Fighter is d4+6, rouge d4+2, cleric d4+4, wizard d3+1.
Gamemaster Critical Hit Deck.
Swashbuckling Cards (someone created this free on the net... found them via this site). Characters get two per sessions. They can use the effect or turn them in for an action point (we're in Eberron).
Shooting into grapple. No 50/50 chance to hit. Based on squares the creature takes up on grid. A huge creature grapples a medium creature 1 square vs. 9 squares = 1 in 10 chance of hitting your ally.
Flaws from Dragon and UA
Traits from UA
32 point buy
Fire arms from the Freeport guide.
Half-elves get human skill bonus ability
Human bonus feat is restricted. choose one of the following Eberron related feats (Action Boost, Education, Heroic Spirit, Investigation, Research, Relic Hunter) or any Skill Talent feat (i.e. +2
skill #1 and +2 skill #2).
Kalashtar: Strike the Kalashtar mindlink psi-like ablity and give them the Telepathic Affinity Complete Psionics (which is essentially the same think but with a little more of a twist.)
Favored Class: This rule is not used.
Apprentice Levels: Up until the point you take your 4th level I will allow you to adjust you character’s stats, skill allocation, feats, etc. on a session to session basis. This is to allow you the opportunity to figure out what combinations work for your character concept and allows you to fix major problems without any hassle. If you change your character around between sessions please inform me via email of the changes and bring me an updated character sheet at the top of the next game.
DM Permission Required Feats: The following feats are require DM permission:
* Leadership: Cohorts only take time away from the other players. Will need a really good roleplaying reason to allow this feat in the game. Do no plan on seeing it.
* Improved Familiar: Same basic idea.
Retraining: The retraining rules from p.192 of the PHBII will be used in this campaign. Again time and money costs are required as spelled out in these rules.
Chump Change: Anything under 100 gp on mooks is considered chump change. This is the stuff characters use to deal with the everyday expenses like buying room & board. When at an Inn and you order and ale for the house just say “I use chump change to buy a round of ales.” Chump change only applies to everyday living expenses.
Languages: Too long to get into but based on the Midnight setting language rules.
Later,
Wraith428