RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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A long time ago, my friends and I were looking at the range increments for the various weapons and noticed that the composite longbow had 110 ft. range increment while the regular longbow had only a 100 foot increment. It made sense, given the fact that a composite bow has a stronger pull associated with it and would thusly propel the arrow farther when fired.
Then it occurred to us: "Well, if that's the case, why don't mighty composite bows have longer ranges than regular composite bows? They must have a stronger pull since they increase the damage of the weapon! They should increase the range as well!"
And so, we decided that for each point of Strength bonus the bow is designed for, it adds an additional 10 feet to the range increment of a normal composite bow, meaning that a mighty composite bow rated for Strength 18 (+4) would have a total range increment of 150 feet (before modifiers). This house rule has been in force for at least two years with our group and we have no intention of changing it, but I was curious to find out if anyone else feels the same way or if anyone thinks that we've done something wrong with this ruling.
Then it occurred to us: "Well, if that's the case, why don't mighty composite bows have longer ranges than regular composite bows? They must have a stronger pull since they increase the damage of the weapon!"
For people who have used bows, realistically the stronger pull lets you fire at the same ranges at a flatter arc, so you have less geometry to worry about. What bothers me about your ruling is that a person can't really fire at 750 ft. (5 of your +4 Str categories) with the same accuracy that a normal person shoots at only 550 ft.; the flatter arc is nice, but doesn't materially increase your visual acuity, nor the steadiness of your aim, and the fact that your target is so much easier to miss with the slightest quiver of your hands. If you wanted to add 1 range band per +1 Str pull, but keep the penalty progression going, that might work: that way, you can fire your +4 Str bow a maximum of 1540 feet (110 ft. x 14 range bands), with a -28 penalty.
I disagree because increment is not given by the strength but by the characteristics of the weapon. You can use and improvised weapon (like a stone)and drop it, its increment is 10 ft. With more strenght are you more accurate to hit to 30 ft. I think no but if a strong character hits then he really has a compensation for his strenght at the damage.
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I understand both of the viewpoints that have been expressed already, but let me ask you this:
If that is the case, then why does the composite bow have more range than a regular bow? Is it more accurate?
Both Longbows and recurve bows historically have the same piercing range, but compound bows have a longer max range. Compound bows are the ones with pullys, which take some of the pull off when you are aiming, so yes, they would be more accurate
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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Both Longbows and recurve bows historically have the same piercing range, but compound bows have a longer max range. Compound bows are the ones with pullys, which take some of the pull off when you are aiming, so yes, they would be more accurate
I think that the 'composite' bow listed in the PHB is different from modern 'compound' bows. The illustration in the book certainly makes it look like a recurve bow. There are no pulleys in the picture nor in the description. I think we may be talking about different things here.
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I think that the 'composite' bow listed in the PHB is different from modern 'compound' bows. The illustration in the book certainly makes it look like a recurve bow. There are no pulleys in the picture nor in the description. I think we may be talking about different things here.
the first part is still relevant - composite/recurve are the same - my copy/paste went further then I thought origanally and then I commented on the wrong part - oops
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I think that the 'composite' bow listed in the PHB is different from modern 'compound' bows. The illustration in the book certainly makes it look like a recurve bow. There are no pulleys in the picture nor in the description. I think we may be talking about different things here.the first part is still relevant - composite/recurve are the same - my copy/paste went further then I thought origanally and then I commented on the wrong part - oops
Ah, I understand now. I misread your first post and thought you said 'composite and regular bows have the same range but compound bows have a longer max range.' I see that I was wrong. Sorry for the misread. :P
So, in light of this information, do you think that composite bows should be listed as having a 100 ft. range increment (identical to the longbow) but allow the wielder to fire up to 11 range increments instead of 10 (kind of like what Kirth was saying)?
While I agree with Kirth that the range differences can get rather pronounced, I'm not so sure this is a bad thing, or at least any big deal.
1) When was the last time you actually had a combat involving those kinds of distances?
2) This is D&D, a game where (whether you agree with it or not), high level characters can swim through boiling water for upwards of 10 seconds, then get out and carry on battle with monsters who have the ability to level cities, and still standing a very high chance of getting a good night's sleep when the day is done. I think making such an allowance on the weapons' ranges is well precedented if you choose to go this route.
In the end, I say go for it. I wouldn't adopt the rule myself, but that's just because it feels like one more thing to keep track of, which I have no interest in.
I don't know how relevant my opinion is here, seeing as I always use a comp. greatbow, but I think that both of the aformentioned ideas work. Adding an additional range increment/10' to the weapon per point of strength bonus seems balanced.
Would you use the same house rule for a greatbow/comp. greatbow? What about one with the long-range attribute? (<-- was in a recent Dragon. Adds 20' to the range increments, costs an extra 100g at the time of creation.)
I have a question though, and this seems like a good thread to ask. Let's say you have a longbow with a +2 strength rating. Then you add the magical "Of Distance" property. Would that stack with the enhancement bonus of +1 for a total of +1 to attacks and +3 to damage? Would magical enhancement bonuses stack with strength ratings?
How would you annotate that? Would it be a +1 Longbow of Distance +2?
-Kurocyn
*edit - Ever tried making a PC that focuses only on extreme ranges? My current PC can fire out to just under a mile without range penalties. ^ ^ The problem is seeing his target, not hitting them...
*edit #2 - Just checked his range increment. It's 510' when he doesn't use his flight arrows.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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I have a question though, and this seems like a good thread to ask. Let's say you have a longbow with a +2 strength rating. Then you add the magical "Of Distance" property. Would that stack with the enhancement bonus of +1 for a total of +1 to attacks and +3 to damage? Would magical enhancement bonuses stack with strength ratings?
How would you annotate that? Would it be a +1 Longbow of Distance +2?
I'm not quite sure I understand your question, but any bow with a 'Strength rating' is not just a longbow, it is a 'mighty composite' longbow. Therefore, the annotation of a mighty composite longbow rated for a +2 strength bonus and containing a +1 enhancement bonus to attack and damage along with the 'distance' enhancement would look like this:
mighty (+2) composite longbow of distance +1
Whoops. Pardon. I had forgotten that they're called mighty when they have a strength rating.
So magical enhancements and mighty do stack then?
-Kurocyn
irrelevant to the game mechanics, but just f.y.i., composite bows are callede such because they are made out of layers of different woods (and nowadays some other synthetic materials)presses tgether. Not all of them are recurve, and not all recurve bows are composite, a plain single wood bow can be a recurve bow.
Then it occurred to us: "Well, if that's the case, why don't mighty composite bows have longer ranges than regular composite bows? They must have a stronger pull since they increase the damage of the weapon! They should increase the range as well!"
Sounds reasonable. Do you adjust the range for Small and Large missile weapons as well?
irrelevant to the game mechanics, but just f.y.i., composite bows are callede such because they are made out of layers of different woods (and nowadays some other synthetic materials)presses tgether. Not all of them are recurve, and not all recurve bows are composite, a plain single wood bow can be a recurve bow.
Dank is correct. Additionally, a bow made from a single peice of wood would be called a "Self Bow." Western bows, such as the long bows, are also known as "Straight Bows," because they are essentially perfectly straight until they're strung. Historically, most composite bows have been recurve, whereas most self bows have been straight.
Composite, recurve bows aren't inherently more powerful than self bows. A recurve bow is only easier to pull at the beginning, but is just as difficult, if not more so, at the end of the draw, whereas the pull of a straight bow is equally difficult throughout the draw. There is no reason why the pull of a recurve could be considered mighty, while the pull of straight would not. Increasing the pull of any antique-type bow would simply be a matter of increasing the strength and durability of the bow. Thus, a 'mighty' longbow (or a mighty recurve bow!) would simply be made from a stronger wood or from a thicker peice of wood with a heavier test string.
I'm also ambivalent about your ruling, although I disagree with it, as the ability to hurl something further does not increase your accuracy at greater distances. Rather, were I to bother, I'd just let player to add in 1-2 (2 for bows & arbalests, 1 for everything else) more range increments per +1 Str mod, but firing a mighty bow at 12x increments suffers the same progression of penalties (I.e. it gets even harder at beyond extreme ranges, but the PC gets to roll a die!)
My .02 - er, make it .01 (from inflation ;^)
- FM
If you wanted to add 1 range band per +1 Str pull, but keep the penalty progression going, that might work: that way, you can fire your +4 Str bow a maximum of 1540 feet (110 ft. x 14 range bands), with a -28 penalty.
I'd just let player to add in 1-2 (2 for bows & arbalests, 1 for everything else) more range increments per +1 Str mod, but firing a mighty bow at 12x increments suffers the same progression of penalties (I.e. it gets even harder at beyond extreme ranges, but the PC gets to roll a die!)
Why do I even post?
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... why does the composite bow have more range than a regular bow? Is it more accurate?
Because it's D&D. 8-) D&D weapons bear more relationship to their real-world counterparts than they used to. But they don't bear much relationship to their real-world counterparts.
As anyone who has ever used a bow could tell you, having it be as easy to hit a target at 110 feet as it is at 25 feet is absurd. Having any chance to hit a target smaller than a phalanx at a range of 1100 feet makes no more sense.
If you want sense, you need to start from first principles, not just put a bandaid on an amputation. So far, I haven't been willing to do that, though I've considered it more than once. At the least, all range increments should be drastically reduced, though.
First Kirth,
If you wanted to add 1 range band per +1 Str pull, but keep the penalty progression going, that might work: that way, you can fire your +4 Str bow a maximum of 1540 feet (110 ft. x 14 range bands), with a -28 penalty.
Then Forever Man:
I'd just let player to add in 1-2 (2 for bows & arbalests, 1 for everything else) more range increments per +1 Str mod, but firing a mighty bow at 12x increments suffers the same progression of penalties (I.e. it gets even harder at beyond extreme ranges, but the PC gets to roll a die!)
lol!
Why do I even post?
Happens all the time in this monkey house. I love it when the some guy comes in later, says the same thing as an early post, and then everyone replies to him....
BTW, great post, made a new house rule, thanks all!
At maximum range you roll that natural 20... even better, confirm the crit.
Suuuuuuuure!
If you wanted to add 1 range band per +1 Str pull, but keep the penalty progression going, that might work: that way, you can fire your +4 Str bow a maximum of 1540 feet (110 ft. x 14 range bands), with a -28 penalty.I'd just let player to add in 1-2 (2 for bows & arbalests, 1 for everything else) more range increments per +1 Str mod, but firing a mighty bow at 12x increments suffers the same progression of penalties (I.e. it gets even harder at beyond extreme ranges, but the PC gets to roll a die!)Why do I even post?
Sigh . . . yeah, well it *was* a dozen or so posts between yours and mine . . . awwww, shucks . . . who am I kidding?
[Belated] D'oh!
;^b
Sigh . . . yeah, well it *was* a dozen or so posts between yours and mine . . . awwww, shucks . . . who am I kidding?
Naw; don't feel bad, it's nice to have some confirmation that my idea wasn't completely off-base. Great minds think alike, FM!