Okay, the thread on how to build an Arcane Rogue Base Class got me thinking again about the humble Spellthief (from the "Complete Adventurer"). I like the idea of a base (i.e. 20 level) class that is basically a Rogue with some arcane spellcasting ability. My preference would be to take an existing class and tinker with it to get what I want.
Specifically, I want the class to be lightly armored, skilled, capable of sneak attack (to some extent) and with enough spellcasting that it is a noticeable class feature, but not the primary focus. I like the Beguiler (from the PHB2), but Beguilers don't get sneak attack. And I like the Beguiler well enough as it is.
But my perception is that most people believe that the Spellthief, as written, is a pretty weak class. I would like to tweak it to bring it in line with the PHB classes in terms of power.
So here is what I am considering are the following changes:
d8 hit die (possibly)
Same weapon proficiencies as Rogue
Keep the same casting progression/spells known/spells per day, with one modification--able to select spells from all of the Wizard/Sorcerer schools. (They currently don't have access to a couple of schools, like evocation). I think the limiting factor here is their slow casting progression (same progression as Rangers/Paladins) and their very limited spells known/spells per day.
I think that would make the Spellthief more attractive. But my question is, does it make it too good?
Second question--if the above proposal is too good, how would it balance if he gave up his signature ability--Steal Spell, Steal Spell-like ability, etc., in exchange? (I know he's no longer a spellthief, but he's a Spellcasting thief, which what I really want).
Third, does anyone think the class is fine as is? Or are we in agreement that it could use a little help?
Fourth, any other suggestions about how to accomplish this goal?
Thanks,
Kelvar
Overall the class is a little weak but not a bad class. I have a player in my STAP game that is up to 12th level now. I think the weakness of the class is that it requires a smart player and a good group. The Spelltheif in the hands of a really rules savy person in a good group could be devastating, which is my guess as to why the player testers at WotC thought it was fine. The only change I would make is that instead a certain number of known spells give them a spell list similar to a beguiler. So basically the same spells they have access to but access to all of them at once.
In our Age of Worms game, the spelltheif was probably the single most powerful character. And that was in a party of a magic missle specialist capable of throwing out 300 points of magic missle damager PER ROUND, a half-ogre that was nearly impossible to kill, and a cleric with a personal sphere of anihilation.
Here's the biggie. Its hard to say which way it's meant to be played, but one big choice determines how good a spelltheif is. How much they can steal.
The rules say a spelltheif can sacrifice a die of sneak attack to steal a spell, or do the other abilities they get later. What the rules don't say is if you are limited to only sacrificing one die per attack, or even just one die per round. At one per round, the spelltheif is weak and scales incredibly poorly. At one per attack, the spelltheif is weak but gets stronger as it levels, especially with two weapon fighting.
If the limit of how many sneak attack you can drop is as much as you have, the spelltheif is great, almost as good as a wizard or cleric. Take invisibility, then improved invisibility later on, and you can decimate casters.
All our calls to WotC never got a good resolution as to what is the "correct" manner to run it. But there was no question that the spelltheif was an amazingly cool, fun, and useful class to have in the party.
The rules say a spelltheif can sacrifice a die of sneak attack to steal a spell, or do the other abilities they get later. What the rules don't say is if you are limited to only sacrificing one die per attack, or even just one die per round. At one per round, the spelltheif is weak and scales incredibly poorly. At one per attack, the spelltheif is weak but gets stronger as it levels, especially with two weapon fighting.
I have always assumed one per attack which works out ok. Our spelltheif also has a weapon with spell storing on it which allows him to store certain spells he steals.
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Keep the hit die d6, that's almost a rogue trademark. and keep the spell thief, that's what the class is about. If you drop that, then you're mooching in on my territory. ;)
I'd worry about making spell selection as open ended on the spells though. I don't remember what schools he's limited to, IDHCAdIFOM, but he needs to be at least limited to that school.
What is your theme? Is it a thief that steals spells and abilities? Is it a thief that dabbles in magic? Is the steal spells trained, or is it a talent that is unlocked, like sorcerers are?
Keep the hit die d6, that's almost a rogue trademark. and keep the spell thief, that's what the class is about. If you drop that, then you're mooching in on my territory. ;)
I'd worry about making spell selection as open ended on the spells though. I don't remember what schools he's limited to, IDHCAdIFOM, but he needs to be at least limited to that school.
What is your theme? Is it a thief that steals spells and abilities? Is it a thief that dabbles in magic? Is the steal spells trained, or is it a talent that is unlocked, like sorcerers are?
Alas, I also don't have my book in front of me, but they get a respectable selection of spells, but they are prohibited from the flashy, offensive schools. I want to say they are prohibited from evocation, conjuration and probably one more. Not having conjuration really stings for my concept, because there are a lot of really useful conjuration spells. And I would like evocation, because I'd like to be able to toss a fireball if things get desperate. But I think at most he only gets like four spells known (before modifiers), so if he took fireball, that's 25% of his third level spells. And he can't cast it more than a few times a day. And he'll never get access to fifth level or higher spells. That's got to be some sort of a balancing factor, right? (Of course, I also would like to give the Hexblade a wider range of spells, but that might be a future thread).
I probably have to agree with you on the d6 hit die. That's one that I was really waffling on to begin with.
In terms of my theme, I'm thinking of him as a thief, excuse me, rogue, who dabbles in magic. He's basically a thief, but he dabbles in magic out of curiosity and out of a desire to have an answer to every situation.
And at a minimum, I don't see any harm in giving him access to the same weapons as Rogues? Anyone think that would be over the top?
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Ok, I don't see expanding their spell list as too bad, now that I have the book. but how about this mechanic instead.
Steal Learning (EX) Instead of casting a stolen arcane spell, a spell thief can choose to add the stolen spell to his spells known list. This requires 30 minutes of uninterrupted meditation, and incence costing 100 GP per spell level to be burned. At the end of this time, make a spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful check means the character can now treat the spell as a known spell, also it is treated as if it was on the character's class list. A character cannot choose to learn a spell of a level higher than he can cast.
This gives you a way to learn new spells, that fits in the class's 'schtick'.
Ok, I don't see expanding their spell list as too bad, now that I have the book. but how about this mechanic instead.
Steal Learning (EX) Instead of casting a stolen arcane spell, a spell thief can choose to add the stolen spell to his spells known list. This requires 30 minutes of uninterrupted meditation, and incence costing 100 GP per spell level to be burned. At the end of this time, make a spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful check means the character can now treat the spell as a known spell, also it is treated as if it was on the character's class list. A character cannot choose to learn a spell of a level higher than he can cast.
This gives you a way to learn new spells, that fits in the class's 'schtick'.
Interesting! But isn't this potentially more powerful than my suggestion (even if your flavor is better)? Because this could greatly increase the total number of spells known. Does that seem problematic?
Ok, I don't see expanding their spell list as too bad, now that I have the book. but how about this mechanic instead.
Steal Learning (EX) Instead of casting a stolen arcane spell, a spell thief can choose to add the stolen spell to his spells known list. This requires 30 minutes of uninterrupted meditation, and incence costing 100 GP per spell level to be burned. At the end of this time, make a spellcraft check (DC 20 + spell level). A successful check means the character can now treat the spell as a known spell, also it is treated as if it was on the character's class list. A character cannot choose to learn a spell of a level higher than he can cast.
This gives you a way to learn new spells, that fits in the class's 'schtick'.
I can see that one getting way out of hand. The potential is that the character could end up knowing every arcane spell of level 1-4. I offer this alternative:
=============Spell Trove (Ex): Much as a rogue sometimes likes to collect keepsakes from their truimphs, so to does the spellthief like to keep trophies from his prior adversaries. At (Some Level), the spellthief gains the ability to keep a trove of spell knowledge gleaned from his enemies. When the spellthief uses the Steal Spell ability, they can as a free action decide to commit the spell to memory; doing so expends the energy of the spell harmlessly and makes it unavailable to the spellcaster it was stolen from as normal.
The spellthief cannot make use of the spell until the following day, after they've rested. When they wake, they spend 1 minute in meditation and make a spellcraft check with a DC of 15 + the spell level. If they succeed, they can add the spell to their Spell Trove; the spell is treated as being on their spell list, and it can be cast as though it were one of their known spells.
The spellthief can learn a maximum number of spells in this fashion equal to 1/4 their level plus their Int Bonus (if any), though they can choose to replace a spell in their Spell Trove in favor of a new spell. They cannot learn spells higher than fourth level (use the class of the spellcaster they stole it from to determine spell level) in this fashion.
=============
I think this presents it in a way that's thematic for the class, gives them a more limited selection of extra spells in their repertoire, and allows them to change it over time.
The number of spells available in the trove was kind of arbitrary, and I'm not entirely certain if it should be based on INT (which seems more logical to me) or CHA (which could/would benefit from the class' primary spellcasting score).
Also, I know I didn't mention whether the spell has to be arcane (it's cast as an arcane spell regardless) in origin, because I'm not convinced that's a necessary limitation. I can't think of any spells right off the bat that would be particularly game breaking from levels 1-4 of any class.
A spell casting thief is very different from a spellthief. The former is perfectly viable as a base class, in fact I have wondered why in the two dozen or so new base classes there is not one. This Arcane Trickster is my spell casting thief base class; I'm sure that there are a thousand of them floating around the various d&d related boards.
As for the spellthief...it needs work. It really should be a base class for both mechanical and flavor reasons:
1. Unlike other base classes, there is no easily accessible way to justify the spellthief's trademark ability. Steal Spell downright demands the existance of some kind of spellthief organization in all but the most roleplay-blind games. Unlike other trademark abilities, steal spell is very specialized and therefore hard to justify as an ability that any non-specialized (i.e., base class) character would have. The logistics of Steal Spell likewise demands some kind of special roleplay explanation. I mean, c'mon how does a character steal spells by stabbing someone with a dagger? And if he wants to use magic, why doesn't he just go to Hogwarts to be a wizard?
2. At low levels, a spellthief might be able to use Steal Spell a handful of times per adventure...if he's lucky. Low CR monsters don't have many magical abilities and low level spell casters don't make very good villains. At high levels every NPC, monster and its mother has spells or spell-like abilities. As a result, spellthieves suck at low levels and rock at high levels. Which brings me to Matthew's suggestion about allowing spellthieves to permanently steal spells. This is a bad idea because it doesn't solve the low-level problem and then multiplies the high-level problem. In fact, if a spellthief were able to permanently steal spells, he'd be like a wizard but able to learn any spell, have better HD, BAB and skills. Not something I would want in my game. Xellan's idea is neat, but more trouble than it's worth mechanically I think. If you want spellthieves to be able to permanently steal spells, it would be simpler to just allow them to replace previously known spells with stolen spells.
To sum up, the spellthief should be a PrC with some flavor text that is more than an afterthought. I'm thinking of some secret society or other who are dedicated to keeping tabs on powerful spell casters; hence their special training in order to deal with their chosen prey. Make the class accessable at 6th level or so, which neatly bypasses the spellthief's low level issues.
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Just a quick idea, perhaps instead of allowing the spellthief to steal multiple spells per attack, or buffing his other statistics (both of which are valid solutions in their own right) he could have the ability to trade in sneak attack damage for spells even when attacking non-spellcasters, but at a reduced conversion rate. Something like "Whenever the Spellthief makes a successful sneak attack, he may choose to sacrifice any amount of sneak attack dice to gain extra spell slots of a total level equal to 1/2 the number of sneak attack dice sacrificed this round. Theses spell slots must be of a level available to the Spellthief and can be used to cast any spell the Spellthief knows. The bonus spell slots last 24 hours." gained at level 4. The "sacrificed this round" bit allows him to sacrifice dice from multiple consecutive sneak attacks at high level to get 4th-level spell slots. Then give him some minor ability, like a flavor-related bonus feat (possibly granting some minor spell-like abilities), at level 1 or 2 to tide him over until he gets spells, and he should be a fairly balanced rogue alternative, with an incentive to switch between sneak attacks and spells, that still absolutely kills enemy spellcasters. Any comments on this idea?
1. Unlike other base classes, there is no easily accessible way to justify the spellthief's trademark ability. Steal Spell downright demands the existance of some kind of spellthief organization in all but the most roleplay-blind games.
Few of the core PC classes can justify their abilities without some sort of organization; Barbarians, /maybe/ fighters (though they still work better with some sort of organized training), and Sorcerers. Some might argue rogues can learn the fundamentals of their class through talent and self experimentation, but I bet most who'd go that route would end up dead or in prison before they ever obtained their first class level.
I mean, c'mon how does a character steal spells by stabbing someone with a dagger? And if he wants to use magic, why doesn't he just go to Hogwarts to be a wizard?
Got mixed up with the wrong (right?) crowd, perhaps? :)
2. At low levels, a spellthief might be able to use Steal Spell a handful of times per adventure...if he's lucky. Low CR monsters don't have many magical abilities and low level spell casters don't make very good villains. At high levels every NPC, monster and its mother has spells or spell-like abilities. As a result, spellthieves suck at low levels and rock at high levels.
This is more of a campaign style issue, I think. Spellthieves don't /have/ to use their trademark skill in every single combat to shine, since they make a reasonably passable rogue at the low levels; only a little less skill points than a rogue, sneak attack, trapfinding, etc. Plus, there's a burden of responsibility for the DM to provide encounters where the characters can shine. It doesn't hurt in the standard D&D fantasy campaign for every encounter to contain some kind of spellcaster (I'm thinking sorcerers and adepts are perfect opponents here). This might not be the type of campaign the DM is running, of course, but in such cases a player is better choosing something else - much like someone wouldn't (or, shouldn't) play a paladin in a game where everyone in the party is of questionable morals.
Xellan's idea is neat, but more trouble than it's worth mechanically I think. If you...
Meh. It was a thought; I saw the downside of permanently learning stolen spells, and offered up something to balance it. Swapping out known spells for stolen spells is a good way to go about it, and could lead to an interesting spell list.
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Good point on it being overpowered. (Though over flexible might be a better term)
Sunrise, your Arcane trickster is similar in spells to my own build, though we seem to differ on special abilities.
Maybe the spellthief needs to be a memorize caster? Then the steal spell ability would allow them to put new spells in their spellbook. Hmm, just woke up for a moment here. I'll have to look at that in the morning. Or does that idea deviate too far from, what you were looking for Kevlar?
1. Unlike other base classes, there is no easily accessible way to justify the spellthief's trademark ability. Steal Spell downright demands the existance of some kind of spellthief organization in all but the most roleplay-blind games.Few of the core PC classes can justify their abilities without some sort of organization; Barbarians, /maybe/ fighters (though they still work better with some sort of organized training), and Sorcerers. Some might argue rogues can learn the fundamentals of their class through talent and self experimentation, but I bet most who'd go that route would end up dead or in prison before they ever obtained their first class level.
Hm, this one is always hard to verbalize (well, write in this case); I'll try again. Unlike other base classes, the spellthief's trademark ability demands a very specific type of organization to justify. Characters from other base classes can say "I was trained in the local militia, in the Queen's Guard, in the City Guild, in the Royal Clergy, by a Hermit in the forest, in the local parish..." The list goes on. Not so the spellthief; because Steal Spell is such a specialized ability, it isn't going to be widely available for just anyone to learn. Well, it might be widely available in a campaign world centered around spellthieves, but otherwise not.
Their trademark ability itself begs the question "what is the purpose of a spellthief organization? Why rely on stealing others' spells rather than just casting your own?"
2. At low levels, a spellthief might be able to use Steal Spell a handful of times per adventure...if he's lucky. Low CR monsters don't have many magical abilities and low level spell casters don't make very good villains. At high levels every NPC, monster and its mother has spells or spell-like abilities. As a result, spellthieves suck at low levels and rock at high levels.This is more of a campaign style issue, I think. Spellthieves don't /have/ to use their trademark skill in every single combat to shine, since they make a reasonably passable rogue at the low levels; only a little less skill points than a rogue, sneak attack, trapfinding, etc. Plus, there's a burden of responsibility for the DM to provide encounters where the characters can shine. It doesn't hurt in the standard D&D fantasy campaign for every encounter to contain some kind of spellcaster (I'm thinking sorcerers and adepts are perfect opponents here). This might not be the type of campaign the DM is running, of course, but in such cases a player is better choosing something else - much like...
A DM could spend extra time and energy to ensure that a low-level spellthief has the chance to regularly use Steal Spell, but the books largely discourage this. Just looking at monster demographics, a DM would have to either finagle some odd monsters into the adventure or create his own magic wielding low CR monsters. At high levels, the DM has the reverse problem. Some DMs are perfectly willing to go the extra mile for their spellthief players, but some aren't, or don't have the time or the experience. (Just think about how many of us use published adventures, which use predominantly published monsters.)
Hm, it looks like I'm agreeing with you on this one. I'm just not accustomed to DMs catering overmuch to their players.
Sunrise, your Arcane trickster is similar in spells to my own build, though we seem to differ on special abilities.
Yeah, I noticed that. I almost mentioned my arcane trickster on your thread but didn't because you were only asking for critiques on your own class.
Maybe the spellthief needs to be a memorize caster? Then the steal spell ability would allow them to put new spells in their spellbook. Hmm, just woke up for a moment here. I'll have to look at that in the morning. Or does that idea deviate too far from, what you were looking for Kevlar?
I'd feel much better about spellthieves being able to permanently steal spells if they were preparation casters.
PS I'd still love to hear even an attempt to explain how someone steals a spell by stabbing the caster in his kidney.
The spelltheif can also steal spell-like abilities, energy resistance and SR. Granted all those come at variuos levels. Those all can help in the hands of a knowledgable player. Maybe the improvement would be where they get they other stealing abilities or maybe the duration of some of them. Say stealing energy resistance and keeping it for a number of hours.
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Hmm, I'll have to give the eyeball to the spellthief over the weekend, and maybe write up a memorization version. One thing I might do is allow them to write -any- arcane spell they can steal, even if it's of a level they can't cast.
Might create an underground economy that way. "Hmm, I can't get William Wizard to teach me 'Evard's Spiked Tenticles of Forced Intrusion', but I can pay Sammy Spellthief to mug him..."
Also, I think the 'how it works' is going to depend from game to game.
PS I'd still love to hear even an attempt to explain how someone steals a spell by stabbing the caster in his kidney.
"Power in the Blood" is a fairly common concept in D&D and fantasy literature. Mages often gain power through blood sacrifices as simple as dealing a HP or two of damage to themselves to empower a spell or even murdering a person on an altar for some powerful (and probably evil) magical effect.
Spellthieves have found another way to manipulate this 'magical rule', if you will. By inflicting a wound when their target is in a vulnerable state, the spellthief uses the symbolic theft of blood to steal away with a measure of their victim's power. It starts with the simplest, and most expendable tidbits of power - a spellcaster's spells - and builds from there. As the spellthief grows in power, she's able to use this swift ritual to steal away ever greater and more intrinsic abilities from their prey.
...
You know, with that description, I can easily see a villain spellthief capturing magi and magical creatures weaker than they to always have a stable to 'power up' with before entering battle.
That works well enough.
Wow, excellent ideas here! Hopefully later I can write an intelligent response to each, but for now:
I like the idea of requiring the Spellthief to steal any new spells he wants to learn if they are outside the list of spells he can normally cast. It gives a PC Spellthief a new type of treasure to seek. He can track down rumors of an evil wizard who reputedly can cast the desired spell, or other cool plot hooks can ensue. Consider that idea yoinked.
I think I like the idea of Spellthieves developing their spellcasting as an innate, developed, ability, more akin to Sorcerers, as opposed to studying to learn them. I like the idea that as time goes on and they gain exposure to more spells (through spelltheft), they begin to acquire an intuitive sense of how magic works. Which is why they can't cast *any* spells of their own until 4th level.
As far as explaining *how* they do what they do, I have also struggled with this. It is hard to explain. Maybe, as suggested above, it has something to do with blood. But then, how does level draining work? A monster drains levels, makes you weaker, with just a touch. A spellthief can drain spells from your mind with a forceful touch--an attack--although a less powerful attack than it could have been. He makes what could have been a lethal strike, but holds back his blade just ever so slightly, while he concentrates, enters his opponent's mind, and takes the spell he wants...like snuffing out a candle.
I have this idea in my mind of a character who is betrayed, like The Count of Monte Cristo, and the person who betrayed him was a mage. He spends years in prison, wrongly convicted, plotting his revenge and developing his skills, planning to see his nemesis destroyed with his own spells. Something like that...
I like the idea of requiring the Spellthief to steal any new spells he wants to learn if they are outside the list of spells he can normally cast. It gives a PC Spellthief a new type of treasure to seek. He can track down rumors of an evil wizard who reputedly can cast the desired spell, or other cool plot hooks can ensue. Consider that idea yoinked.
This feels a littel strange to me unless you let the spelltheif do it for all spells, divine and arcane. He can steal both, so why can't he learn both?
See I think most people underestimate a spell theives versitility. In our group the spelltheif take Cure spells from the groups cleric so that the cleric can hold the front line and the theif can do the healing. Sure he can't hold a bunch of them but at least the cleric doesn't always get stuck doing nothing but healing.
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Ok, looking at the prepared spell thief.
3rd level they gain the ability to start writing spells down, so when they can cast at 4th level, they can have a spell book.
Int based caster, so by 3rd level, average of +8 to spellcraft (6 skill points, +2 int modifier) so if we make the DC to transcribe an arcane spell 20 + spell level, it means our hypothetical average spellthief has a 40% chance to take a stolen spell and add it to the spellbook. If he takes magical aptitude, that's 50%, and if he takes skill focus instead, it's 55%. Not bad. So I can safely say we should allow our proto-class to take ten.
With Chris P's concern, lets allow him to add divine spells to his book, but increase the DC. Should it be 25 or 30 plus spell level?
Side note: I'm trying to balance class design/tweaking based on the 25 point array, to try to keep even with the core classes
Ok, looking at the prepared spell thief.
3rd level they gain the ability to start writing spells down, so when they can cast at 4th level, they can have a spell book.
Int based caster, so by 3rd level, average of +8 to spellcraft (6 skill points, +2 int modifier) so if we make the DC to transcribe an arcane spell 20 + spell level, it means our hypothetical average spellthief has a 40% chance to take a stolen spell and add it to the spellbook. If he takes magical aptitude, that's 50%, and if he takes skill focus instead, it's 55%. Not bad. So I can safely say we should allow our proto-class to take ten.
With Chris P's concern, lets allow him to add divine spells to his book, but increase the DC. Should it be 25 or 30 plus spell level?
Side note: I'm trying to balance class design/tweaking based on the 25 point array, to try to keep even with the core classes
Note that the Spell Thief's players first thought will be 'stealing from the enemies is a lot of work - lets talk to every non-hostile mage or cleric I can find work with them to steal the spells I'd like.
Thats the biggest hurdle I see with this - steal from bad guys is pretty cool but it might not work out that way. Stealing from friends is just so much easier.
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I'm DM-ing a spellthief in the STAP and gave it a bit of a boost with Bard spell progression (keeping the limits on spell choices otherwise intact). Saves, d6 hit die and the rest stayed the same.
I also added a new ability at 3rd level
Blatant Theft (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a spellthief can use a standard action to attack any spellcaster to steal any un-cast spell or spells that the target has. If they hit, they deal normal damage and can attempt to use their Steal Spell ability as if they had made a successful sneak attack. The target receives a Fortitude save to deny this (much more obvious) assault. The SR of the Fortitude Save is 10 + 1/2 Spell Thief level + Spell Thief's Int bonus.
I'm not sure if I found it online or made it up, now, to be honest. A quick google didn't find it. I'm wondering if a concentration check would be more appropriate as a save too, DC 10+Spellthief level+spellthief Int bonus, maybe.
It'll be interesting to see if it all ends up being overpowered, he's only 3rd level now.
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I'm DM-ing a spellthief in the STAP and gave it a bit of a boost with Bard spell progression (keeping the limits on spell choices otherwise intact). Saves, d6 hit die and the rest stayed the same.
I also added a new ability at 3rd level
Blatant Theft (Su): Beginning at 3rd level, a spellthief can use a standard action to attack any spellcaster to steal any un-cast spell or spells that the target has. If they hit, they deal normal damage and can attempt to use their Steal Spell ability as if they had made a successful sneak attack. The target receives a Fortitude save to deny this (much more obvious) assault. The SR of the Fortitude Save is 10 + 1/2 Spell Thief level + Spell Thief's Int bonus.I'm not sure if I found it online or made it up, now, to be honest. A quick google didn't find it. I'm wondering if a concentration check would be more appropriate as a save too, DC 10+Spellthief level+spellthief Int bonus, maybe.
It'll be interesting to see if it all ends up being overpowered, he's only 3rd level now.
Sounds interesting. Although my immediate impression would be to cry foul on the power level, it isn't nearly so bad in review. Interested in seeing how it plays out in your campaign in case I need to steal it.
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It's been a while and I've changed the Fortitude save to a Will save and now it's pretty fair.
Sixth level Wizard - Will +5 + WIS bonus. Let's call it +6.
Spellthief 6 stabs him and tries to rip out a spell.
DC of Will save = 13 + Spellthief Int bonus.
In my game this is a +3, for a total DC of 16.
So - a 50/50 chance. With Fortitude it was more like a 75% chance, a bit too high.
I've been thinking of making it a concentration check as if the caster had been hit while casting but haven't felt the need to change it yet.
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Thanks for the update!
I've had one player use a spellstalker in one of our games. He missed the skill points of a base rogue, and never really got a handle on the spells. I don't know if it was his lack of familiarity with illusions/enchantments or if it was bad rolls, or both. No one's tried a spellthief yet in our groups, so we've not implimented any fixes.
I feel somewhat reaffirmed in my original idea of increasing the hit die to d8, in light of the directions the Pathfinder RPG is going.
I now wonder how my original idea stacks up as a core class compared to the updated classes in the PRPG...
My reading of the character was that it depended extremely heavily on DM fiat for its signature ability: stealing spells. I'm curious as to whether "dry spells" so to speak were a major problem in your campaigns, whether DMs simply made sure you faced a lot of spell casters, or whether it was playable without the stolen spells, or what.
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We're playing Savage Tide and he's having more fun with stealing spell effects than spells so far. It's easier to give everyone potions than add lots of wizards.
The alchemist went all Gaseous Form and he stole that, Drevoraz had Bull's Strength and he guessed lucky and stole that (while critting the Big D). Big Momma Bullywug was hasted, bull's strengthed and blurred. Not for long! I threw some sahuagin at them on the Wyvern, one was a mutant and Lightning Resistant. He stole ten points of that and the wizard let loose with the Lightning Bolts after all - that kind of thing.
They've just found a stowaway who's a Beguiler 9 in my campaign. I've never seen anyone so eager for the next session!
This is a PrC I made for a BBEG in my campaign.
The Crafty Purloiner steals the magic from spellcasters and items alike in order to power his bizzare magical inventions.
Crafty Purloiner
Requirements:
Alignment: Any non-good
Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint, any Item Creation feat, any Metamagic feat
Skills: 13 ranks each in Bluff, Craft alchemy, and Use Magic Device
Special: Ability to use 3rd level Infusions
Special: Retain Essence special ability
Special: Steal Spell (2nd level) special ability
Special: Steal Spell-like Effect special ability
Special: Sneak Attack +2d6
Class Features:
BAB: +3/4 (as bard)
Good Saves: Will
Hit Dice: 1d6
Class Skills: Appraise, Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Disable Device, Hide, Knowledge (all), Listen, Move Silently, Open Lock, Profession, Search, Sleight of Hand, Spellcraft, Spot, Tumble, Use Magic Device.
Skill Points per level: 6 + Int modifier.
LEVEL ABILITY
1. Corrupt Item, Craft Reserve, Steal Spell (3rd),+1 level of Infusions
2. Sneak Attack +1d6, Steal Magic Item Effect, +1 level of Infusions
3. Metamagic Spell Trigger, Steal Spell (4th), +1 level of Infusions
4. Bonus Feat, +1 level of Infusions
5. Absorb Spell, Steal Spell (5th), +1 level of Infusions
6. Sneak Attack +2d6, Discover Spells, +1 level of Infusions
7. Steal Spell Resistance, Steal Spell (6th), +1 level of Infusions
8. Bonus Feat, +1 level of Infusions
9. Metamagic Spell Completion, Steal Spell (7th), +1 level of Infusions
10. Sneak Attack +3d6, Absorb Spell (immediate casting), Steal Essence, +1 level of Infusions
Corrupt Item (Su). The Crafty Purloiner can degrade the quality of his opponent's equipment. A Crafty Purloiner who hits an opponent with a successful Sneak Attack can forgo dealing 1d6 points of Sneak Attack damage and instead target a piece of equipment the opponent is wearing, carrying, or wielding. The bonus (if any) that piece of equipment provides the opponent is reduced by 1 per Crafty Purloiner level. This can cause the equipment to apply a penalty to the item's function. This effect persists for 1 minute per Crafty Purloiner level. For example, a 3rd level Crafty Purloiner could target his opponent's +2 longsword, causing it to bestow a -1 penalty on attack and damage rolls.
Craft Reserve. A Crafty Purloiner has a pool of points that he can spend instead of XP when crafting a magic item. The Crafty Purloiner's Craft Reserve begins with 0 points. Each time he uses his Steal Spell ability, the Craft Reserve increases by an amount equal to the spell level stolen. A Crafty Purloiner can have a Craft Reserve with a maximum equal to his class level multiplied by 100 at any given time.
Steal Spell (Su). This ability is similar to the Spellthief ability of the same name. There is one difference, however. When a Crafty Purloiner uses the Steal Spell ability successfully, he also increases his Craft Reserve by a number of points equal to the spell level.
Sneak Attack. At 2nd level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a Crafty Purloiner's sneak attack increases by 1d6.
Steal Magic Item Effect (Su). At 2nd level, a Crafty Purloiner gains the ability to steal the effects of 1 magic item his opponent possesses. A Crafty Purloiner who hits an opponent with a successful Sneak Attack can forgo dealing 2d6 points of Sneak Attack damage and instead target a piece of equipment the opponent is wearing, carrying, or wielding. The Crafty Purloiner then gains the use of that magic item and his opponent loses the ability to use that magic item for 1 minute. The Crafty Purloiner can use a number of magic items in this manner equal to his Intelligence modifier (minimum 1). If the item is a spell completion or spell trigger item, the Crafty Purloiner must succeed on a Use Magic Device skill check, as normal. The Crafty Purloiner can only steal a magic item effect from an item with a caster level of less than or equal to twice his Crafty Purloiner level.
Metamagic Spell Trigger (Su). At 3rd level, a Crafty Purloiner gains the ability to use a metamagic feat that he possesses through a spell trigger magic item, such as a wand or staff. This uses up a number of additional charges equal to the additional spell levels that the metamagic feat usually requires. This ability can only be used with a magic item that has charges.
Bonus Feats. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, a Crafty Purloiner gains a bonus feat. This bonus feat can be any Item Creation feat or Metamagic feat.
Absorb Spell (Su). At 5th level, if a Crafty Purloiner makes a saving throw against a spell that targets him, he can attempt to store that spell energy for later use. A spellthief can only absorb spells of a level that he can steal. If he succeeds in absorbing the spell, the Crafty Purloiner can use the spell energy to cast a Spellthief spell, an Infusion, or he can increase his Craft Reserve by an amount equal to the spell level. To absorb a spell, the Crafty Purloiner must make succeed on a level check (1d20 + double his Crafty Purloiner level, upto a maximum of his character level) against a DC of 10 + the spell's caster level.
See the Spellthief description of the same name on page 20 of the Complete Adventurer for more details.
At 10th level or higher, a Crafty Purloiner can choose to use the stolen spell energy as an immediate action, either to recast the stolen spell or to cast one of his own spells or infusions using the stolen spell energy.
Discover Spells (Ex). A Crafty Purloiner of 6th level or higher who steals a spell form a spellcaster with his steal spell ability automatically learns the names of all other spells known or prepared by the spellcaster that are of the same level as the stolen spell.
Steal Spell Resistance (Su). A Crafty Purloiner who hits an opponent with a successful Sneak Attack can forgo dealing 3d6 points of Sneak Attack damage and instead reduce the target's spell resistance by 5. The Crafty Purloiner also gains spell resistance equal to 5 + double his class level (upto a maximum of his character level). The stolen spell resistance persists for a number of rounds equal to the Crafty Purloiner's Charisma modifier (minimum 1 round) and then returns to the target creature. See page 20 of the Complete Adventurer for more details.
Metamagic Spell Completion (Su). At 9th level, a Crafty Purloiner learns how to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a spell completion item (generally a scroll). The Crafty Purloiner must succeed on a Use Magic Device check with a DC of 20 + (3 x the modified spell level). The modified spell level is the level of the spell on the magic item plus the additional spell level(s) the metamagic feat applies to a spell.
The Crafty Purloiner can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + his Intelligence modifier.
Steal Essence (Su). A Crafty Purloiner learns how to drain the magic from the magical items of his opponents. A Crafty Purloiner who hits an opponent with a successful Sneak Attack can forgo dealing 4d6 points of Sneak Attack damage and instead target one the magical items that his opponent possesses. His opponent must make a Will Save with a DC of 10 + the Crafty Purloiner level + the Crafty Purloiner's Charisma modifer or the targeted magical item becomes non-magical, as if it were hit with a Rod of Cancellation. If his target fails the Will save, the Crafty Purloiner increases his Craft Reserve by the number of XP it took to create that magic item. If that magic item held charges, the Crafty Purloiner gains only the remaining proportion of XP available to the item. See page 32 of the Eberron Campaign Setting for more information on this under the Retain Essence entry.
EPIC PROGRESSION
LEVEL ABILITY
11. Steal Spell (8th), +1 level of Infusions
12. Bonus Feat, +1 level of Infusions
13. Steal Spell (9th), +1 level of Infusions
14. Sneak Attack +4d6, +1 level of Infusions
15. Steal Spell (10th), +1 level of Infusions
16. Bonus Feat, +1 level of Infusions
17. Steal Spell (11th), +1 level of Infusions
18. Sneak Attack +5d6, +1 level of Infusions
19. Steal Spell (12th), +1 level of Infusions
20. Bonus Feat, +1 level of Infusions
New Epic Feats:
Absorb Area Spell [epic]
You are able to absorb the spell energy of area effect spells.
Requirements: Absorb Spell (immediate casting), Spellcraft 24 ranks
Benefit: You are able to use your Absorb Spell ability on area effect spells that do not specifically target you. You must be in the area of effect of the spell to absorb it. If you succeed on your saving throw against the spell, and you succeed on the level check to absorb the spell, you gain all the effects of absorbing the spell. The spell still affects all other targets of the spell normally.
Normal: You can only absorb spells that target you specifically.
Devour Area Spell [epic]
You are able to absorb all of the spell energy of an area effect spell.
Requirements: Absorb Spell (immediate casting), Absorb Area Spell, Spellcraft 27 ranks
Benefit: When you use your Absorb Spell ability to absorb an area spell successfully, you draw in all of the spell energy of that spell. Other targets in the area of effect of that spell are unaffected by that spell.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I've had one player use a spellstalker in one of our games.What on Earth is a spellstalker, Mr. Morris?
Sorry, I missed this post.
The Spellstalker is a class I created (with a great deal of tweaking and improving via input of those on the boards) that is a rogue with spells. d6 HP, good ref and will, its own spell list, and casts as a bard.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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@Mr. Morris - that sounds interesting - and the name is great! Have you posted the class anywhere? I'm curious!
No, I've not. I've a word document I can mail to you, or a PDF if you prefer. It includes another class I'm itching to playtest and some spells and the like. I'm thinking about including some psionic powers based on force feats too.
@SmiloDan - you've got too much free time mate! That's a funky class, and those monsters in your other thread are awesome! More more more!
@Mr. Morris - that sounds interesting - and the name is great! Have you posted the class anywhere? I'm curious!
Thanks, Carborundum. This is what happens when my group meets less than once a month.