I was talking with a friend the other day, and we got onto the subject of the rogue class. It came to light that he feels that sneak attack isn't all that it's cracked up to be, since you have to get one off in the first round of combat (presuming you win initiative over some or all the foes) or rely on flanking.
But he feels that setting up sneak attack situations is rather difficult. His feelings (and play experience) are that "flanking buddies" are hard to come by- most people are off doing their own thing in a fight, and the rogue has to try to keep up with them (which isn't always easy).
Additionally, he feels that the flanking rules are a bit stringent. Of course, we were misreading them for some time and thought that you could get flanking if you could draw a straight line to an ally from any side or corner, rather than just from side to side.
Combining the difficulty of setting up flanking positions, and the underwhelming damage rogues deal when not scoring a sneak attack with the number of creatures that are immune to it, he feels that sneak attack is quite a bit underpowered.
This is when he noticed that rangers get Hide in Plain Sight (HiPS) and rogues don't. I must admit, this seems a bit odd to me. When I think "master of stealth," I think rogue, not ranger (although rangers can be pretty sneaky, I admit). He felt that giving rogues HiPS would help them get more sneak attacks (presuming that if a rogue made his Hide check and then attacked again later, the target would be flat-footed; is there a rule on this, or would it be situational/DM's call?).
I have no idea. On the one hand, I have witnessed a lot of rogues, and never really been that impressed with their damage output. So, I feel a little sympathetic to his desire to be a mean damage-dealing machine.
At the same time, rogues have a lot of non-combat roles, and are far from useless in a fight. My gut feeling is that they are designed the way they are for a reason and shouldn't be tampered with.
Thus, I'm posting here. What are the experiences of others on the boards when it comes to rogues and damage? Should they get HiPS? Or are they just fine as they are (which is my default position)?
I think the Ninja is a bit of an underperformer compared to the Rogue. However that is because my experience has been that my players always flank if possible even if their is no rogue since it adds +2 to hit. If your Rogue is faced with a group that won't flank with him he might find that the Ninja with its ability to turn invisible for short periods is just what the doctor ordered.
I feel the Rangers Hide in Plain Sight is really about hyper awareness of her surroundings and skill in blending into those surroundings. Rogues are good at hiding but Rangers are the camouflage masters.
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Personally, I kind of hate Hide in Plain Sight in general. It would make sense as a supernatural or spell-like ability but being able to just disappear right in front of someone is a bit ridiculous without the use of something at least quasi-magical. I don't disallow it or change how it works in my games, but I still harbor hatred for the way the ability works deep within my blackened soul.
My advice to give your rogues some more flanking opportunities: Use facing. The default in D&D assumes that characters are able to defend themselves and perceive in all directions at all times. There is a variation on this (called "Facing") in Unearthed Arcana that puts all this nonsense to rest (notably, my group has been using facing since we started PLAYING D&D, well before UA ever existed). A fighter with a shield can only gain its bonus against attacks in his 'forward arc' and a rogue can score sneak attacks on any enemy he can get behind, meaning that a simple tumble check can get him behind most enemies as a move action, allowing a sneak attack for his attack. No flanking required. It also means that AoOs happen less frequently as a creature does not threaten squares behind it unless it does not have a discernable 'front' (like most oozes).
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I guess my last post didn't really answer your question. No, I don't think rogues need HiPS. I understand why rangers get it since they are all about blending in with the terrain and whatnot (plus, rangers can only use the ability in natural surroundings IIRC). Rogues don't need it and honestly, it doesn't really make sense.
Because assassins get spells, I rationalize it to myself that they use some kind of psuedo-magic to pull it off. Same thing with Shadowdancers and, incidentally, rangers.
Can you make a link to the part of UA that deals with facing? I think that's interesting. How much slower do your games run because of tracking it? Unfortunately, it also sounds like that further reduces the overall effectiveness of shields, making them even less desireable (which is a shame- no one really seems to like shields in 3.x).
One of my friend's suggestions was to allow rogues to get sneak attacks on a target anytime someone else is threatening them (well, he actually said "like in NWN, whenever someone else is attacking them," but what I've written would be more consistant and easier to track). However, that seems a bit extreme to me.
Just to point it out, what about feint? Especially with the improved feint feat this allows the rogue to use sneak attack throughout a combat even without the help of flanking.
Personally, I don't think the rogue needs hide in plain sight.
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Can you make a link to the part of UA that deals with facing? I think that's interesting. How much slower do your games run because of tracking it? Unfortunately, it also sounds like that further reduces the overall effectiveness of shields, making them even less desireable (which is a shame- no one really seems to like shields in 3.x).
To compensate (a little) for shields only being effective against the foward arc, we increase the AC they grant by 1 (light shields are +2, heavy are +3, bucklers are still only +1). I don't know how much the facing rules will slow your game down because I've never played 3.x without them. It's become our routine and I don't think our combats are too slow. YMMV
I will try to get you a link when I get home tonight. Shouldn't be long.
Saern, I would say your friend isn't trying hard enough to set up sneak attacks.
That might not change his opinion on the situation... But each player has a certain affinity for certain classes. Some people can't get enough of Wizards, others find the need to track spell books a killjoy.
As far as HiPS... Speaking from my own experience, it is quite possible to pull off without magical ability. Unless some one wants to suggest that myself, and my family - not to mention some friends, are magical in nature. (All pun intended.)
BUT, that doesn't change Fatespinners loathing of the mechanic, nor should it.
But back on topic:
If you are having trouble setting up sneak attack damage remember these tips:
1) Flanking. If you can swing it, summon monster/natures ally/astral construct or familiar or animal companion (or simply a trained pet) are good for these things. Even if a rogue has to use the Use Magic Device skill to use scrolls... Never be without a substitute flanker if you can help it.
2) Invisibility (Greater when possible).
3) Obscure vision. Blinding, concealment, whatever it takes. If your opponent can't see you, but you can see them - instant sneak attack situation.
4) Feint now, feint often.
With a determined / skilled rogue player I can all but promise you that sneak attack is good as is, and rogues don't need altering.
Also the rogue could buy a Bag of Tricks (cheapo magic item). Then set up flanking with the critters.
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Personally, I kind of hate Hide in Plain Sight in general. It would make sense as a supernatural or spell-like ability but being able to just disappear right in front of someone is a bit ridiculous without the use of something at least quasi-magical.
When I was in the reserve forces we did this camoflage/stealth exercise, at which most of us sucked. At the end my platoon was lined up beside a field and asked what we saw. A few people said things like grass, a tree way over there, stuff like that, but we were all baffled as to what they were getting at. Then the guy standing upright 8 feet in front of us moved. None of us had seen him until then.
Now, he didn't vanish in front of our eyes, but if I looked away and he stopped moving again, I would have had trouble finding him. Hide in plain sight isn't much of a stretch for me.
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Contributor
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I tried an experiment with facing and it was a game-killer for us.
The problem I had was that you had to either limit the amount that people could turn and when they could turn to an unrealistic degree, or allow them to turn often enough that facing became meaningless. We played with a number of movement options and facing was the least useful and provided the least return on investment (in terms of how much it slowed the game).
Flanking is easy to get as is, and the rules work for me on a realism/playability level as is. Sneak attack is frankly easier to get than sudden strike or even skirmish in many situations; it's certainly easier to set up multiple sneak attacks than multiple sudden strikes or skirmish attacks.
The only place where sneak attack sucks is for ranged combat.
Disenchanter is completely right, and this guy is more of a spellcaster or barbarian kind of guy; rogues aren't really his "thing." They aren't mine either, so while I was 99% sure the response I've gotten would come, I decided to post up his thoughts. That, and I was kinda bored. ;) I was really just curious if anyone else found getting sneak attacks to be a pain or unrewarding. Obviously not.
Regarding the bag of tricks- looking over the gray bag's list, I was wondering what the mechanics would look like for trying to sneak attack with, say, a bat as your flanking partner. The thing is Tiny and must move into a creature's square, thus provoking an attack of opportunity, for itself to attack. If I understand the rules correctly, it then leaves the creature's space? Or can is share the same space?
If the former is true, then it can't really give flanking, can it? If the latter is true, then it could (although it's so frail that it would probably be a bad idea).
There's just something strange about the thought that a bat could provide enough of a distraction in combat by attempting (and I mean attempting) to be hostile that a someone could get flanking from it....
I don't think that rogues need HiPS, but I think that it is absurd that it's not at least on the rogue special ability list. I mean, c'mon, nature boy gets it, goth dancer chic gets it, but the game's master of stealth doesn't get HiPS? What kinda bs is that?
Personally, I kind of hate Hide in Plain Sight in general. It would make sense as a supernatural or spell-like ability but being able to just disappear right in front of someone is a bit ridiculous without the use of something at least quasi-magical.When I was in the reserve forces we did this camoflage/stealth exercise, at which most of us sucked. At the end my platoon was lined up beside a field and asked what we saw. A few people said things like grass, a tree way over there, stuff like that, but we were all baffled as to what they were getting at. Then the guy standing upright 8 feet in front of us moved. None of us had seen him until then.
Now, he didn't vanish in front of our eyes, but if I looked away and he stopped moving again, I would have had trouble finding him. Hide in plain sight isn't much of a stretch for me.
I've seen this myself once with a human and its almost common in the animal kingdom.
Regarding the bag of tricks- looking over the gray bag's list, I was wondering what the mechanics would look like for trying to sneak attack with, say, a bat as your flanking partner. The thing is Tiny and must move into a creature's square, thus provoking an attack of opportunity, for itself to attack. If I understand the rules correctly, it then leaves the creature's space? Or can is share the same space?
Well I just looked up flanking and it seems that they have to be opposite you and threaten which kind of precludes rats and such. Could still buy the rust version, or if you get a good enough UMD (dead easy for the rogue) you could buy some kind of summoning wand and use them for flanking. Though I think the Rust Bag of Tricks might be the better option. Reasonably cheap, unlimited usage, animals stay for a long time. Even the Tan one is really not that pricey and those critters are pretty tough.
Flanks are hard to set up? In which alternate universe? As you mentioned, the player may be more accustomed to the reliable damage of the warrior classes, vice the situational damage of sneak attack, but it has been the bane of my DM existence for all of 3.x :) in my current game, we have a kobold ninja and rog/monk. They work together like a little scaly ginsu. They were scouting last week and took out not one, but 2 MM1 ogre barbarian sentries in one round each due to flanking and sneakiness. It was appalling to see the ninja roll 100 HP damage in ONE round. twf and kukris, plus SA? Damn...
Sounds like your group needs a talk about teamwork. Flanking is a team effort that benefits everyone.
Personally, I kind of hate Hide in Plain Sight in general. It would make sense as a supernatural or spell-like ability but being able to just disappear right in front of someone is a bit ridiculous without the use of something at least quasi-magical. I don't disallow it or change how it works in my games, but I still harbor hatred for the way the ability works deep within my blackened soul.
I consider Hide in Plain Site to be a cinematic ability - it isn't realistic, but it is cool if you can visualize the scene.
Remember the opening scene in The Professional? The assassin, Vincent, played by Jean Reno takes out a mob boss and all his henchmen in a penthouse suite, first killing someone, then fading back into the shadows only to reappear behind someone else while his victims were in a state of confusion, uncertain where he would strike next.
He wasn't magical, just preternaturally good and I think that's what HiPS is trying to simulate.
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I apoligize for threadjacking; I hope this isn't so bad -- I was about to start a thread on Hide in Plain Sight and it looks as if Saern's question has been answered...
Here goes: I suggest to my Rangers that they swap out HiPS for some other equally valuable Feat or Ability because I WILL NOT allow it the way it is written -- It's just stupid. Now, if the PC or NPC has time before a fight or if there is no combat soon to come ("Prince of Redhand" ballroom scenes, etc.) he can HiPS but even if an encounter is merely in the surprise round, it can't be done. This makes it far less attractive. What do you guys think; am I tyranical in this case?
-W. E. Ray
I apoligize for threadjacking; I hope this isn't so bad -- I was about to start a thread on Hide in Plain Sight and it looks as if Saern's question has been answered...
Here goes: I suggest to my Rangers that they swap out HiPS for some other equally valuable Feat or Ability because I WILL NOT allow it the way it is written -- It's just stupid. Now, if the PC or NPC has time before a fight or if there is no combat soon to come ("Prince of Redhand" ballroom scenes, etc.) he can HiPS but even if an encounter is merely in the surprise round, it can't be done. This makes it far less attractive. What do you guys think; am I tyranical in this case?
-W. E. Ray
I'm not sure how that would be helpful. It would only let him hide from non-hostile creatures (at least ones that are not currently attacking). Even then I would think they would notice that someone has gone missing.
I don't think that rogues need HiPS, but I think that it is absurd that it's not at least on the rogue special ability list. I mean, c'mon, nature boy gets it, goth dancer chic gets it, but the game's master of stealth doesn't get HiPS? What kinda bs is that?
That is probably because HiPS is only in natural terrain. The rogue is designed around urban work. Usually.
Wow, even in the Anti-Rogue arena of the Age of Worms AP, I've never seen rogues as sub-par.
Some things to consider: Teamwork. If your party isn't using it, I would personally ask them what game they think they're playing. D&D is a team game by design; cohesive parties tear through challenges, fractured groups die like headless chickens.
Improved Feint + Bluff. You will get sneak attack on one attack every round, unless your opponent is wildly lucky or skilled at sensing deceit.
Hiding. It may require the DM to draw out terrain more fully so that you can illustrate where the concealment and cover is, but you can use the terrain to hide, sneak attack, hide, sneak attack, on about an every other round basis.
Invisibility. Here is where the rogue leaves the fighter in the dust for damage. A ring of invisibility guarantees a rogue sneak attack against his target unless it has sensory countermeasures equal to blindsight or trueseeing. If the rogue has UMD, a wand of improved invisibility becomes the single most powerful item in the party.
If you are using core rules, it is true that there are several creature types which ignore sneak attack. Again, teamwork is the name of the game. Most situations that would allow a rogue sneak attack that I have listed also allow a rogue to avoid an attack of opportunity for a trip attempt, disarm, or other manuver. If the rogue succeeds in tripping the Lich, that equals four more points the fighter can power attack for, and a 20% increase in the paladin's chance to land a smite evil.
If splatbooks are used, there is a large amount of ways to help get around sneak attack immunity. I agree with some, others are a bit overpowered (here's looking at you Deathstrike Bracers), but they can be used in moderation to give rogues a slight edge. Just don't be afraid to give some nasty tricks to your monsters too (here's looking at you, blindsight mask).
I apoligize for threadjacking; I hope this isn't so bad -- I was about to start a thread on Hide in Plain Sight and it looks as if Saern's question has been answered...
Here goes: I suggest to my Rangers that they swap out HiPS for some other equally valuable Feat or Ability because I WILL NOT allow it the way it is written -- It's just stupid. Now, if the PC or NPC has time before a fight or if there is no combat soon to come ("Prince of Redhand" ballroom scenes, etc.) he can HiPS but even if an encounter is merely in the surprise round, it can't be done. This makes it far less attractive. What do you guys think; am I tyranical in this case?
-W. E. Ray
I'd rather have a bonus feat in any case so I'd not actually complain but this ability kicks in at 17th level so it hardly seems that far fetched. At this level our ranger can knock a tick off the head of a goblin at 500 paces. My big problem is the word 'natural' really does not mean very much of anything. I'd be peeved slightly if the ranger kept using this in the underdark and yet the underdark is natural.
Blur grants concealment, so any rogue under its effect can use Hide at any time (except vs. someone with true seeing).
I don't think that rogues need HiPS, but I think that it is absurd that it's not at least on the rogue special ability list. I mean, c'mon, nature boy gets it, goth dancer chic gets it, but the game's master of stealth doesn't get HiPS? What kinda bs is that?That is probably because HiPS is only in natural terrain. The rogue is designed around urban work. Usually.
The shadow dancer gets HiPS (shadows), which would be perfect for the rogue.
I feel that if a Ranger can get the (EX) version of HiPS than a Rogue should be able to get it as a Rogue ability or in PF an Advanced Rogue Talent. That said, I would not allow your Rogue to get this just because he doesn’t feel he is getting SA enough. Team work is the answer to flanking problems, not powerful freebie abilities.
I would certainly not allow him to be able to flank like they do in NWN, where you get SA as long as another character threatens the same foe. There are however feats that let you do this. There is a line of feats in the PHB2 that do it and there is also a stance for the Shadow Hand in Tome of Battle that lets you do it (that can also be acquired through a feat). But this is really powerful and I would not give it to a party for free.
Yes, HiPS and Invisibility are great, they are powerful tools that get you SA but only for the first attack unless it's improved invisibility. Flanking is where it’s at, SA on a full attack action. So I would have your party talk about their team work.
@ Fatespinner & Molech
Personally, I kind of hate Hide in Plain Sight in general. It would make sense as a supernatural or spell-like ability but being able to just disappear right in front of someone is a bit ridiculous without the use of something at least quasi-magical.
Here goes: I suggest to my Rangers that they swap out HiPS for some other equally valuable Feat or Ability because I WILL NOT allow it the way it is written -- It's just stupid. Now, if the PC or NPC has time before a fight or if there is no combat soon to come ("Prince of Redhand" ballroom scenes, etc.) he can HiPS but even if an encounter is merely in the surprise round, it can't be done. This makes it far less attractive. What do you guys think; am I tyranical in this case?
Most of the time HiPS is supernatural. Both the Assassin and the Shadowdancer get it as a (SU) ability and it is very much magical in nature. They don’t even have to be IN a shadow as long as they are close to one they can disappear right in front of you. The (EX) ability that rangers get show their ability to vanish into their surroundings (think of them as Special Forces), yes it is a little exaggerated to be able to vanish mid combat while someone is trying to kill you, but if you have ever seen “The Hunted” you can think of it like that. And it is very possible to a degree, I have been in the shadows and been close enough to slap someone in the face and they never saw me. On a couple of occasions I have had people look right at me scanning the area and not see me. So I don’t think it is a stretch to give one of the HERO’s of your game the same ability.
@ Disenchanter
Tequila Sunrise wrote:
I don't think that rogues need HiPS, but I think that it is absurd that it's not at least on the rogue special ability list. I mean, c'mon, nature boy gets it, goth dancer chic gets it, but the game's master of stealth doesn't get HiPS? What kinda bs is that?That is probably because HiPS is only in natural terrain. The rogue is designed around urban work. Usually.
I agree with Tequila Sunrise here, I don’t think they NEED HiPS but I do think it is a bit ridiculous that they don’t get an (EX) ability to use it, especially in the PF version. I say this because the Ranger’s HiPS is no longer only usable in natural environments, they get to choose from Favored Terrains now and their abilities work in any of their Favored Terrains, oh and by the way they can take URBAN as a Favored Terrain now, as well as Caves and other things.
@ Dragonchess Player
Blur grants concealment, so any rogue under its effect can use Hide at any time (except vs. someone with true seeing).
I am almost positive there is a rule somewhere that the specific concealment granted by Blur could NOT be used to make Stealth attempts. I can’t find it in the PRD though.
Good discussion going on HiPS at THIS THREAD.
Also consider all the special abilities that rogues get that rangers don't i.e slippery mind, skill mastery, improved evasion..
There are also ways to build a rogue and get you're sneak attack with out hiding or flanking using the improved faint feat and string it with a few others.
My roommate Deathedge built a rogue/invisible Blade that at high lvls faints once and gets some where between 6-8 sneak attacks right to the opponents face
Feinting just denies your opponent their DEX bonus to AC for the next melee attack you make, not a whole round. He would have gotten sneak attack on his next attack, but not on a full attack. How did he get it on 6-8 attacks with only one feint roll?
I believe Invisible Blade makes Feinting a free action but he would still have to feint separately before each attack.
I was unaware of the 3.5 Errata on the Invisible Blade.
But that Greater Feint feat is nasty; I had not noticed that before. That feat combination makes Invisible Blade probably the most effective combat PrC for a Rogue.
Feinting just denies your opponent their DEX bonus to AC for the next melee attack you make, not a whole round. He would have gotten sneak attack on his next attack, but not on a full attack. How did he get it on 6-8 attacks with only one feint roll?
I believe Invisible Blade makes Feinting a free action but he would still have to feint separately before each attack.
Wrill Marcalo is a high level rogue/invisible blade with dual-wielding feats, two daggers of speed, and the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark. If I hit you with one sneak attack after feinting, then you are rendered flat-footed. That means the rest are considered sneak attacks as well. :)
We also use the 3.0 version of Expert Tactician, which states that you can make an extra melee attack against one opponent who is within melee and who is currently denied Dex bonus...such as by being flatfooted. Still, even with that houseruled 3.0 feat, that only adds ONE to his many in-your-face sneak attacks. And he's actually going to get nine, when he's finished.
Feinting just denies your opponent their DEX bonus to AC for the next melee attack you make, not a whole round. He would have gotten sneak attack on his next attack, but not on a full attack. How did he get it on 6-8 attacks with only one feint roll?
I believe Invisible Blade makes Feinting a free action but he would still have to feint separately before each attack.
Wrill Marcalo is a high level rogue/invisible blade with dual-wielding feats, two daggers of speed, and the Surprising Riposte feat from Drow of the Underdark. If I hit you with one sneak attack after feinting, then you are rendered flat-footed. That means the rest are considered sneak attacks as well. :)
We also use the 3.0 version of Expert Tactician, which states that you can make an extra melee attack against one opponent who is within melee and who is currently denied Dex bonus...such as by being flatfooted. Still, even with that houseruled 3.0 feat, that only adds ONE to his many in-your-face sneak attacks. And he's actually going to get nine, when he's finished.Surprising Riposte is a rather good feat, but it does come with some issues.
1: it's non-core, as is invisible blade. There are many GM's that limit books available, IB is in a more popular book, and among those GM's that do allow non-core they often have issues with multiple splat stacking. Greater Feint is core, so its a combo that's available a fair percent more often.2: It makes the target flatfooted, which has good and bad points. The good (nasty really) point is that flatfooted foes can't take immediate actions or make attacks of opportunity. The bad news, is that barbarians, fellow rogues, and anybody else with uncanny dodge is immune to the feat's sneak attack granting benefit.
1: No one said we were simply discussing core rules. And as you said, if we were playing Pathfinder instead of 3.5 (Wrill was around before we started playing Pathfinder), then he would simply have taken the Greater Feint feat. Since that didn't exist when I made him, he became an Invisible Blade.
2: That's the risk you take when you sign up to be the rogue. Just like choosing to become a great archer...watch out for those Wind Wall spells. Everyone has a weakness, everyone excels at something. That's why I love it! :D
I love the Drow of the Underdark book myself. The whole book is an outstanding source for Rogue-ish characters. I haven't looked at the feats in a while though and don't use much feinting myself but the build you describe sounds pretty nasty.
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I apologize beforehand that this post does not deal with HiPS
I actually made a character (my Human Swordsage [Desert Wind], actually) that I used the combination of feats and stances to set up flanking situations with the rest of my party. With Spring attack and a really high tumble modifier, (although the DM didn't let me take the Magic Item, Belt of Ultimate Athleticism that would allow me to take 10 on tumble checks in combination with the feat that makes an opponent flat-footed when you tumble through their square. Actually a good call, because that would have been just wrong with that specific build. But I digress) I was setting up a flank for a different person every round, and dishing out somewhere around 5d6+6 (with a 15-20/x2 crit) to 10d6+10 if I used a martial maneuver.
Everyone loved that character because I basically just made everyone else do better by flanking and setting people on fire. That guy was all over the battlefield. I think it's one of the few characters that actually moved a significant amount, rather than the fighter than stands still to attack the same guy over and over again. Actually, I don't think I ever used a full attack with him.
BTW it was a +2 Holy Keen Scimitar and I used the Assassin's stance for +2d6 sneak attack, and everything was evil. Sometimes I chugged a potion of stone fist before battle for +6 strength for 1 minute (that spell is a little bit broken, BTW.)
Personally, I kind of hate Hide in Plain Sight in general. It would make sense as a supernatural or spell-like ability but being able to just disappear right in front of someone is a bit ridiculous without the use of something at least quasi-magical.
Things can make more sense if you twist the definition of "hidden" a little bit. If instead of considering hidden as invisible, you consider hidden as "opponents cannot declare an attack against you", HiPS can make more sense without altering and mechanics itself.
The way I see it in some situation, opponents still see the hidden character, but for a reason or another, cannot declare an attack against him. Maybe the hidden character is moving a lot, maybe he's keeping to the opponent's dead angle, maybe he's kicking sand in his opponent's eyes; the result is still the same as being hidden.
A frustrated opponent is still granted the ability to swing "blindly" in the occupied space if his Perception happens to be greater than the "hidden" character's Stealth, with the normal 50% miss chance (or is it 50% damage now?)
anyhow, just saying that the word hidden may take a broad definition with minimal impact on the mechanics but a huge impact on suspension of disbelieve.
[edit] back to the OP, I would allow rogues to select HiPS as a greater talent (actually I thought it was already).
'findel