What advantages does psions have over mages? What disadvantages doe psions have compared to mages? Please compare and contrast when submitting your answers. Please do not answer with psionics sucks or psionics is cool. These are opinions which you are entitled to but I would like to compare the facts. If I may start things off...
psionics has an advantage- a psion can use as many of his highest level powers as often as his PP will allow. Thus a 9th level psion with 72 PP could manifest a power cost 1 PP up to 72 times a day or a power costing 9 PP up to 8 times a day.
psionics has a disadvantage- because mages have the flexibility to change their spells and sorcerers have access to more spells than a psion does to their powers.
I'm going to break this into too parts. First part covers the wizards versatility compared to the psion - second part I show why a sorcerer is always better then a psion.
The wizards strength, as we all know, lies in its versatility. Capable of having a spell book (at the higher levels) with a huge number of spells the wizard can potentially craft the perfect spell list for any given adventure - provided the wizard has some good idea regarding what the adventure entails. While the wizard is excellent in combat its probably the classes abilities outside of combat that make it so well loved. A wizard can prepare all sorts of non-combat spells for the adventure, anything from spells that create bridges to ones that open chests. A good wizard (at the higher levels) can circumvent just about any problem - so long as the wizard knows what the problem is before picking out spells. Even beyond this a wizard of a high enough level probably has a ton of utility spells prepped or on scrolls just in case.
All of this is impossible for the psion, who, like the sorcerer, only knows a very limited number of powers and, even with several books to choose from, is extremely limited compared to the many hundreds of spells that a wizard has access to choose from.
The above is especially relevant when considering some of the main difference between the wizard/sorcerer spell list and the psion/wilder power list. psions powers are generally focused either at a single enemy or on themselves and nobody else. In comparison the wizard/sorcerer spells carry a much broader range. While they include spells like those of the psion they also include lots of spells for combating large numbers of enemies and tons of utility spells that benefit the whole party. The psion has few powers like this even on its powers list so abilities that benefit the party are essentially a no go. The sorcerer faces an opportunity cost in taking utility type spells as known spells due to the low number of known spells that the sorcerer can know but at least their is always the option to do so or go and get a scroll of a desired spell. The psion faces the same opportunity cost but can't simply get the power as a magic item as as one can't take a power if the power does not even exist.
Ok now I'd like to adress the idea that the psion can out omph the arcane classes in the short term. I'll put in a caveat here that I think this is essentially true with the wizard unless the wizard expressly chooses to pick spells aimed at engaging in only a single fight and thats all for the day. Even if the wizard does this the wizard does not really stack up to the sorcerer in this field.
The idea, basically, is that the psion can use all its PSPs out to its manifestor level every round until it runs out. Fine its true they can do that and its really potent. However, since the Spell Compendium and PHB2 came out the Sorcerer can basically do something very similar. Essentially speaking there are a whole whack of excellent swift and immediate action spells in these books - Psion has almost nothing comparable. Only a tiny handful of powers are immediate action types and their almost all defensive (Dampen comes to mind here). So while the Psion starts off using his max manifestor level each round I think you'll find that for the first few rounds the sorcerer actually out powers the Psion. The Sorcerer essentially casts his most powerful spell as normal but also casts one of the many swift or immediate action spells in his repertoire. Since the highest level Sorcerer spells are comparable to a maxed out psion power the sorcerer wins out by virtue of having a second spell (albeit one thats usually a little weak (but fast!) for its level). So, for as long as the sorcerers highest level spells hold out its probably more of a menace then even the most gung ho psion. Furthermore even when the sorcerer is forced back to its second highest level spells augmented by swift or immediate action spells this is at least comparable to what the psion is doing each round with a single maxed out power. Its only when the sorcerer runs out of these spells as well that the psion starts to pull ahead. Catch is that the sorcerer can probably keep this whole charade up for a good 8 rounds. By that point the Psion is usually beginning to run really low on juice anyway. Here again the sorcerer wins out - while the psion is just about tapped out the sorcerer is not - now the sorcerer sure ain't in tip top condition anymore but there are probably still a whole whack of first and some second level spells left - even as the psion is forced to quite the field due to running dry on PSPs the sorcerer can still persevere blasting away with 5d6 orb spells for many rounds yet to come.
Now I choose the orb spells for a reason - this is the final thing that makes the sorcerer superior to the psion. The sorcerer spell list contains spells that beat SR and also has access to a whole whack of battlefield control type spells. The psion is weak in both of these areas. SR is nearly an insurmountable problem for a psion as there are so few powers that ignore it and those that do exist are so obviously weak compared to other power choices. The sorcerer (and wizard) simply don't face this barrier. SR is a major pain in the butt but its perfectly surmountable with the right spell choices.
I guess to sum it up - what the psion does best the sorcerer does better and the sorcerer can also do things the psion can't do.
Jeremy, that was thoughtfully argued, but my response to the OP would be slightly different. I'm playing a few psionic characters now b/c they're fun, I like the flavor, and after close to 30 years playing mage-types, I'm ready for a little change.
I realize psionic-fans are few and far between, but I quite enjoy them. To the OP, check out the Psionics boards--and stickies about "myths" on them--over at WOTC. You might find something you like. Be careful what you post, though. Some of those people--while quite knowledgeable on the subject--are a bit off-putting at times. You'll figure it out...good luck making a choice!
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Hm...well, for what it's worth (and be forewarned, this is meta-gaming at its worst), psions get shafted because they don't have as many options as wizards/sorcerers. Psionics is (and probably always will be) a "fringe"/alternative system that hasn't received a lot of heavy support. Look at everything that's been put out to customize your mage, and all of the uber cool things you can do to customize your mage. Psionics hasn't gotten anywhere near the same level of support.
Jeremy, that was thoughtfully argued, but my response to the OP would be slightly different. I'm playing a few psionic characters now b/c they're fun, I like the flavor, and after close to 30 years playing mage-types, I'm ready for a little change.
Thanks!
In anycase I never said you can't play a psion in fact I'm arguing that the DMs gut instinct to cripple your abilities is really unfair to the class unless the DM also nerfs the sorcerer since the sorcerer is actually the more powerful class.
Also there are a number of types of psions that I like. The Wilder with its unique ability to up its manifestor level is not really a fantastic class but it does have some unique flavour.
For a class that is a pretty damn sweet psion I suggest cerbermancer. Combine your psion with a wizard and get the best of both worlds. These two classes really combine well as a side bonus. Psion can get that max power thing going while the wizard side handles utility spells, battlefield control spells and that damn SR. Of course you pay by not having the highest level spells and powers.
In my campaign I include a class of decedant innatly psionic aristocrats. The class is partiuclarly part of the decedant Empire flavour of my campaign but the class has been taken a number of times and its pretty well balanced. Its essentially a gestault Aristocrat/Wilder with the cool wilder abilities removed so that just teh powers known and PSPs per level remain.
I call the class 'Old Haddathian Aristocrats' but that sort of name obvously should reflect the naming structures and fluff of ones personal campaign.
Abilities: Charisma determines how powerful a power an Old Haddathian Aristocrat can manifest.
Alignment: Old Haddathian Aristocrats may be of any alignment.
Hit Dice: d8
Class Skills: Appraise (int), Auto hypnosis (wis), Balance (dex), Bluff (cha), Climb (str), Concentration (con), Diplomacy (cha), Gather Information (cha), Handle Animal (cha), Jump (str), Intimidate (cha), Knowledge (Psionics) (int), Knowledge (Geography) (int), Knowledge (History) (int), Knowledge (Nobility and Royalty) (int), Knowledge (Religion) (int), Knowledge (The Planes) (int), Knowledge (Local) (int), Listen (wis), Psicraft (int), Sense Motive (wis), Ride (dex), Spot (wis), Swim (str), Tumble(dex)
Skill points at 1st level: (4 +intelligence modifier)*4
Skill points at each additional level: 4+ intelligence modifiers.
Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: The Old Haddathian Aristocrat is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armour and shields (except the Tower Shield).
Power Points: The Old Haddathian Aristocrat is limited by the amount of Power Points he can expend per day as given on the table below. Old Haddathian Aristocrats receive bonus power points from Charisma.
Powers Known: Old Haddathian Aristocrats start off knowing one power chosen from the Wilder List. They gain new powers as they progress in level.
Starting Money: Aristocrats start with a 250 gp stipend from their Noble House and receive an allowance of 100 gp per month.
Multi-classing restrictions: While Old Haddathian Aristocrats can, in general, multi-class fairly easily they are limited in on very important respect. If they ever have a class that is equal or greater then their Old Haddathian Aristocrat class they suffer a 20% experience point penalty.
Level - BAB - Fort - Ref - Will - PSPs/Day - # Powers - Max Level
1st - +0 - +0 - +0 - +2 - 2 - 1 - 1st
2nd - +1 - +0 - +0 - +3 - 6 - 2 - 1st
3rd - +2 - +1 - +1 - +3 - 11 - 2 - 1st
4th - +3 - +1 - +1 - +4 - 17 - 3 - 2nd
5th - +3 - +1 - +1 - +4 - 25 - 3 - 2nd
6th - +4 - +2 - +2 - +5 - 35 - 4 - 3rd
7th - +5 - +2 - +2 - +5 - 46 - 4 - 3rd
8th -+6/+1- +2 - +2 - +6 - 58 - 5 - 4th
9th -+6/+1- +3 - +3 - +6 - 72 - 5 - 4th
10th -+7/+2- +3 - +3 - +7 - 88 - 6 - 5th
I choose to only allow 10 levels of the class forcing the players to multi-class but one could easily extend the table to 20th level.
This is a kind of 'jack of all trades' type class. Lots of skill points in a lot of general knowledge skills makes knowing things a strength of this class. Its otherwise something of a combo back up fighter and back up mage. It differs from the psychic warrior in its access to the psion/wilder power list. Psychic Warriors tend to concentrate on powers that enhance their fighting while a Old Haddathian Aristocrat will tend toward more range and utility type powers. One big weak point is no dump stat. Wisdom is the only stat that is not really needed for the class.
Jeremy, that was thoughtfully argued, but my response to the OP would be slightly different. I'm playing a few psionic characters now b/c they're fun, I like the flavor, and after close to 30 years playing mage-types, I'm ready for a little change.
I realize psionic-fans are few and far between, but I quite enjoy them. To the OP, check out the Psionics boards--and stickies about "myths" on them--over at WOTC. You might find something you like. Be careful what you post, though. Some of those people--while quite knowledgeable on the subject--are a bit off-putting at times. You'll figure it out...good luck making a choice!
I also agree that what Jeremy wrote was thoughtfully argued. I did my research before starting this post. First checking past Paizo articles. I found two Pathfinder contributes who felt psionics were potent and only fit if the entire party was composed of psionic characters. They were Nicolas Logue and James Jacobs. Now this could be for two reasons, I believe, psionics are slightly better and willl outshine other classes or the psionicist will blow his PP then the party will have to wait and rest, slowing the game down. Most likely a bit of both. I also saw a link by Amaril to the psionic forums and the myth debunking. I found this to be half thought provoking and half BS. When I was in college my english class was at night and was taught by a journalist from the local newspaper. She said when presenting an editorial your need to present cases from both sides, even if you favor one over the other. This has stuck with me.
I do want to add to Jeremy's comments. There are less area effect powers, but there are also less total powers. This leads me to believe players will chose these when available. They are not known as staples of DnD like magic missle and fireball but will often be chosen by most psions. There are quite a few powers which can be augmented to give results needed for multiple spells. Examples of these would be daze and dominate. A mage would need two spells or just use the more powerful one to encompass both. The psion has the choice to use less PP. There are also augmentations that can encompass what one would need from multiple spells. A good example of this is animal affinity. A psion can augment to boost multiple abilities, where a mage would need to quicken a second casting. In no way do these mitigating factors offset the better flexibility of the mage but they make it less extreme.
The comparison of the psychic warrior to the figher on the psionics forum and the recent posts here on Paizo about wizards has me thinking. If the fighter who can fight at the same capability all day long is compared to the mage who will expend his higher level spells and then need to rest is at another end, well the psion would be even further removed still. Looking like this...
(fighter, ..., ..., ..., wizard, psion)
fight all day----------------------only good for a few encounters
How do psionics feats compare to wizard feats? Do psions have an advantage?
oh my dear sweet lord. Psions are incredibly unbalanced. They can essentally empower and heighten any spell any time, have no spell slots to force them to think about how they use their powers, and at 7th level onward can essentally just forget about their power points. When the mage can run at max power for any number of encounters you know somethings wrong. Psions are like wizards... if wizards could prepare all of their spells at the highst level they can cast and had about 3 free metamagic feats. Oh, and spontanous casting.
Hmm. Psionic powers are less powerful than spells in my view. The power point system gives the psion some flexability to balance this out, but I personally prefer that my players have few levels in psion or take levels in the less psionically powered class psychic warrior. I really couldn't argue well for either side because I generally like both wizard and psion. Balance isn't as much of an issue for me as conception, but I can see where psions might be a bit overpowered.
oh my dear sweet lord. Psions are incredibly unbalanced. They can essentally empower and heighten any spell any time, have no spell slots to force them to think about how they use their powers, and at 7th level onward can essentally just forget about their power points.
Not quite that good. With an 18 intelligence at 7th they have about 60 PSPs. Thats good for 8 rounds on the 9th round they can use their remaining 6 PSPs for a slightly diminished power. That said I think that the Psion is probably a little better then the Sorcerer up until 8th level or so. Its around 9th that I'd say the Sorcerer starts to really pull away from the Psion.
Not too much more to say on my part. I've been lurking for literally years on (mainly) the WOTC boards, Psionics and otherwise. Take my word for this: no matter what you say, or how well you argue your points, there will always be people who polarize the psionics issue in 2 ways:
(1) "overpowered" and "underpowered";
(2) "love them!" and "hate them!".
To reiterate what I was trying to get across in my 1st post, I chose a few psionic characters to play for 2 reasons: I wanted to try something new after decades of playing mages; and the flavor fit my campaign world perfectly. I'm not a min-maxer--except in video RPGs :)--so the over- or underpowered debate isn't my cup of tea.
I do think that we'd have seen more official support for psionics had not "Complete Psionics" not drawn such withering criticism from the small-but-vocal psionics fans. I think we can agree that w/ all the splat books WOTC has been producing, there's a "power creep" going on. So of course psions can't really compete w/ the latest tricks of the arcane magic-using classes; they haven't had the updating their competitors have had. But I'm ok w/ that.
Btw Jeremy, I loved the flavor of your decadent psionic aristocrats.
*grumble grumble*
What's all this reasoned and cool-headed discussion of psionics? Where's the blind prejudice?!
I dun't like it, I tells, ya.... (wanders off to check the rant thread)
I also agree that what Jeremy wrote was thoughtfully argued. I did my research before starting this post. First checking past Paizo articles. I found two Pathfinder contributes who felt psionics were potent and only fit if the entire party was composed of psionic characters. They were Nicolas Logue and James Jacobs.
Smart guys, both of them, but not infallible. I mean Nicolas does not even believe in playing this game on a table top. He's such a heathen its a wonder he has not been lynched yet. My point of course is that just because Nicolas is of the opinion that miniatures is not the best way to play that does not mean that those that like playing the game with more then pure imagination are wrong. Likewise if these two are of the opinion that Psionics is over powered or ruins the game - well it could be true but I'd not take it as gospel.
Now this could be for two reasons, I believe, psionics are slightly better and willl outshine other classes or the psionicist will blow his PP then the party will have to wait and rest, slowing the game down. Most likely a bit of both.
There was a whole sub debate regarding this topic on the 'Fixing the Wizard' thread. Essentially one faces this problem with wizards (and sorcerers and in fact every class that has abilities or magic items with X uses per day) as well. The wizard player blasts with its two highest level spells and maybe a few of its next to highest level spells in the first combat. Brings the house down on the bad guys but then would like to rest and will work at convincing the rest of the party that its best if everyone stops because who knows what the next encounter will bring and would it not be better if their wizard was in top form for that?
Essentially this is an adventure design issue in which DMs have to convince the players of all of these types of classes that its not viable to always use ones best abilities at the first opportunity. Hence adventures must force the psion to be selective and conservative with their PSPs in the same way as they have to force mages and sorcerers not to cast their most powerful spells exclusively until those run out.
I also saw a link by Amaril to the psionic forums and the myth debunking. I found this to be half thought provoking and half BS. When I was in college my english class was at night and was taught by a journalist from the local newspaper. She said when presenting an editorial your need to present cases from both sides, even if you favor one over the other. This has stuck with me.I do want to add to Jeremy's comments. There are less area effect powers, but there are also less total powers. This leads me to believe players will chose these when available. They are not known as staples of DnD like magic missle and fireball but will often be chosen by most psions.
I agree with this but my point was that the wizard/sorcerer list includes a greater number of such spells. In particular I was emphasizing battlefield control spells by which I meant non-damage dealing spells that heavily impede the opposition usually by making everyone in an area fight much more poorly due to suffering penalties. colour spray is a good example of a low level spell that does this while solid fog is a good example of a medium level spell. I emphasize the non-damage dealing nature of these spells because its their ability to incapacitate or severely limit the enemies ability to continue to fight that makes them widely regarded (on these boards at least) as the most powerful form of arcane support one can get.
My point in all of this is that psions don't have many area effect powers but that's not really the big limitation compared to the dearth of ability to hinder or incapacitate a large group. They're stuck doing with the far less effective method of blasting large groups of enemies with hp damage with only a handful of exceptions (like demoralize).
There are quite a few powers which can be augmented to give results needed for multiple spells. Examples of these would be daze and dominate. A mage would need two spells or just use the more powerful one to encompass both.
True but its not as effective as one would like because the psion needs to be higher level to be able to augument these. So while the wizard can't use daze augmented by the time the psion can do this the wizard has access to a higher level spell that potentially could be used to incapacitate multiple opponents. The psion has a higher level power as well of course but now faces an opportunity cost – use the lower level power augmented or the higher level power? Obviously choice between using a power augmented or another power is a benefit but its not as big a one as it sometimes appears when looking over the powers.
The psion has the choice to use less PP. There are also augmentations that can encompass what one would need from multiple spells. A good example of this is animal affinity. A psion can augment to boost multiple abilities, where a mage would need to quicken a second casting.
Actually here I would say the spell and the power are essentially balanced against each other. For one thing most psions don't even have access to this power - you have to be an egotist. Furthermore the power works on the psion and the psion alone but its a little better at doing that. With the various ability augmenting spells that the arcane caster has access to the spell can be cast on themselves or can be used as a buff to help anyone else depending on the circumstance.
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The one thing that rarely gets picked up by the psionics haters is that to get an enhanced level effect, a psion needs to expend extra PP whereas an arcane caster doesn't. Consider two wizards casting fireball - this spell (and most other damage-type evocations and suchlike) takes up a 3rd level slot and does 5d6 if cast by the 5th level wizard and 10d6 if cast by the 10th level wizard. I.e., it scales up to 10th level without the 10th level wizard doing anything other than going up a few levels. A 5th psion using a similar power (energy burst or something like that) uses 5pp to do 5d6, but a 10th level psion must burn 10pp to do 10d6. If the 10th level manifester cast it as a normal 3rd level power and it will take only 5pp but only do 5d6 damage. So, in this instance, the psion must use twice as many pp to get the same effect as an arcane caster of the same level.
The notion that a psion can simply "burn" his pp and get an advantage doesn't really make a whole lot of sense. I don't have my books, but how many spell slots of level 3 to 5 does a 10th level wizard have? Without my books I can't be definitive, but with a decent INT I would hazard about 10 to 12. So said wizard can cast out his evocations of fireball (or more powerful spells, with the 4th and 5th level slots) for a minute or more, assuming he wanted to use his slots that way, and do his maximum damage on each one. The sorcerer can probably outperform the wizard in this respect and sacrifice less since he doesn't really get the spell versatility anyway. Since most combats don't last that long, the arcane casters seem to be perfectly capable of blasting their foes as much as the psions.
In my experience, using psionics in the Eberron context, is that they are surprisingly nuanced and complex, given the sort of variations which can arise from enhancing powers with pp (which, as pointed out above, means that fewer powers are actually necessary to give a psion access to the "full suite" of the equivalent arcane spells). They are very good for confusing PCs in combat (especially power-gamers with a good grasp of the rules). I personally think they are fairly balanced, possibly a little (but only a smidge) under-powered, mainly because (as Jeremy rightly points out) very few psions get access to the "blasting-type" evocation-style powers which are the staple of wizards and sorcerers everywhere (since you need to specialise as a kineticist in order to do that).
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The one thing that rarely gets picked up by the psionics haters is that to get an enhanced level effect, a psion needs to expend extra PP whereas an arcane caster doesn't. Consider two wizards casting fireball - this spell (and most other damage-type evocations and suchlike) takes up a 3rd level slot and does 5d6 if cast by the 5th level wizard and 10d6 if cast by the 10th level wizard. I.e., it scales up to 10th level without the 10th level wizard doing anything other than going up a few levels. A 5th psion using a similar power (energy burst or something like that) uses 5pp to do 5d6, but a 10th level psion must burn 10pp to do 10d6. If the 10th level manifester cast it as a normal 3rd level power and it will take only 5pp but only do 5d6 damage. So, in this instance, the psion must use twice as many pp to get the same effect as an arcane caster of the same level.
This is true, but one of the things that I really like about psionics is that the psion's 10d6 has a save of a 5th level (6th level?) spell. So, yes the damage is the same, but the save is more difficult with the psion's power. It's minor, but I feel a significant difference.
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I think it is debatable whether psionics really "add" anything - you are quite right that it is a different system, so why bother if there already is one? I personally find it quite elegant, and it has a nice exotic feel to it. But I think the like/dislike aspect is more of an aesthetic one than anything else.
*Though this thread isn't particularly intended as a "I hate/love psionics" forum.
Here is a list of the number of spells/powers available over the course of 20 levels
-----wizard-sorcerer--psion
1st-----4-------5-------5
2nd-----4-------5-------4
3rd-----4-------4-------4
4th-----4-------4-------4
5th-----4-------4-------4
6th-----4-------3-------3
7th-----4-------3-------3
8th-----4-------3-------3
9th-----4-------3-------6
Total---36-----34------36
This list does not include 0 level spells. Bonus spells for high ability scores are not included. Also it takes for granted that a psion will take the highest level power when they become available. This is a reasonable assumption, few sorcerers cast lower level spells in higher slots.
By converting spell levels to PP this is how they compare-
character
level--wizard-sorcerer-psion
5th------14-----18------25
10th-----70----116------88
15th----174----268-----195
20th----324----486-----343
Again bonus spells and PP for high ability scores are not included. I am presenting this listing so GMs and players can compare on their own the differences between these classes. The sorcerer benefits from more spells per day than spells known.
Interesting tables.
I especially find your spell levels converted to PSPs interesting. Look at 5th level on that line. While the chart will later expand out to be pretty comparable it seems that at 5th level the Psion is really ahead of the Sorcerer and especially the Wizard. I wonder if this does not partly explain why many people feel the Psion is too powerful. It would seem that it is a bit overpowered at the lowest levels.
That said I think these tables might be of more use to use if they did in fact presume some prime stat. Say 16 to start with and going up by 1 every 3 levels. I think those bonus spells across the board are important in that they expand out the low end of the list. Essentially if everyone gets 1 more spell per spell level that benifits the wizard more then the sorcerer.
I do think that we'd have seen more official support for psionics had not "Complete Psionics" not drawn such withering criticism from the small-but-vocal psionics fans.
Huh? I didn't see that on these boards. I think the book is pretty good.
That said I think that the whole mantles thing seemed to suddenly be trumped by the Dragon Shaman Auras. Auras are pretty cool but I'm not exactly sure we needed two seperate systems that more or less do the same thing.
Also I kind of find the Lurk confusing but it might make mroe sense if I actually bother to stat one up.
Any way what was the problem? Why was the book badly recieved?
First off, my experience with psionics is pretty limited. I've just skimmed through the Expanded and started making a character with basic backround knowledge from 1st and 2nd edition. My limited opinion from that is that the psion had a very limited arsenal of powers in the combat area (which was stated earlier) and the psion seemed to play more of a "filler" role like a bard, or druid and less of a support class like the cleric or wizard.
Choices for powers seemed to lean towards physical augmentation, divinition, minor healing (is it only personal healing???), small selection of nukem (disintingrate, but single target), and a couple utility powers like levitate and fly. The wizards spell choices tend to be more open ended and party inclusive or helpful for the entire group. A psion's, on the other hand, are limited to a specific flavor (like the bard's or druid's). If the designer's could have fathomed a fireball, lightning strike, or detect magic being generated from someone's mind, I'm sure they would have included it in the list of powers.
With that said, if you're going straight combat, the sorcerer is the obvious choice because the wizard's utility is no longer needed, but that depends on the campaign. A series of games in which a psion's divinity helps with captured villains or there is a possibility of fighting monsters toe to toe with augmentation, I would love to play the psion, but I imagine filling the utility role of a wizard would difficult and stressful for the player and the party. Same goes for a druid, though, poor choice over a cleric or the main spellcaster, especially in a dungeon.
Other points I'm not sure on... do psion's get abilities to use scrolls or similar items? Do they need to pick up Use Magic Items to use wands and such?
In the end, I don't believe the psion and the wizard really compare on the same level unless the psion's spell repetiore were to increase. Unfortunately people are afraid of 'learning a new system' (powers = spells, it's not that difficult to understand) and game/adventure designers don't want to take on psionics, dnd's bastard child.
As a side note to "Fixing the Wizard," having a psion in the party as a support caster alongside the wizard would be fun, maybe replace the cleric if they can heal the party (I still don't know :P). This might prevent the wizard from having to blow all of his top tier spells and needing to rest after each fight, especially if these 2 casters work together... just a thought.
Jeremy I did as you suggested and worked out tables for ability scores the results favored the psion, wizard, and lastly the sorcerer. When I say this I am basing this theory on the fact that players will rest when the spellcasters are out of there 3 highest level spells. A fair assessment.
-5th level 19int(int 16+ 1 at 4th, +2 ability enhancing item
10th level 22int(int 16+ 2 at 8th, +4 ability enhancing item
15th level 25int(int 16+ 3 at 12th,+6 ability enhancing item
20th level 29int(int 16+ 5 at 16th and 20th,+6 ability item & +2 manual
bonus spells and PP-
level---wizard----------------sorcerer----------psion
5th-----1,2,3(9PP)------------1,2(4PP)--------10PP (2)3 or 1,1,2,3
10th---1,1,2,2,3,4,5(29PP)--same as wizard--30PP (3)5,2 or (3)1,(2)2,3,4,5
15th--(2)1-3,4-7 (58PP)-----same as wizard--52PP (4)7 or (2)1,(2)3,4-7
20th-(3)1,(2)2-5,6-9 (107PP)-same/wizard----90PP (5)9,3 or 3,(2)5,6-9
As you can see from the 5th level table the sorcerer does not have access to 3rd level spells at 5th level, lagging behind the wizard slightly. The psion benefits from high ability scores at any level. A grey elf who starts with a 17 int(before racial mod) can have a 20 int by 4th level this results in +10PP equal to two 3rd level powers.
The downside of the complete psionic was the inclusion of the too many pages on mantles and the lurk (who has his own power list). I think most of us wanted more powers. The ones presented are fine. (Many brought back memories of movies or comics.) They could have converted many of the Dark Sun 2nd edition powers and it would have been better received. The complete mage does the same thing with the warlock. Ironically, WoTC does not want to print world material specific=less sales, yet this is essentially what they did with these two books.
Body adjustment (healing) is a 3rd level psion power and a 2nd level psychic warrior power. It is not as good as the cleric.
spell level----psion----cleric
1st------------NA-------1d8+level(max+5)
2nd------------NA-------2d8+level(max+10)
3rd------------1d12-----3d8+level(max+15)
4th------------2d12-----4d8+level(max+20)
5th------------3d12-----use 4th
6th------------4d12-----heal 10pt/level
Empowering and maximizing work better(equal to one level less of an adjustment) for a psion but they still cannot equal a cleric
... I'm not exactly sure we needed two seperate systems that more or less do the same thing...
Ding! There's one of my big issues with all of psionics (as opposed to "normal" magic). I'll also throw out in general (and then be quiet about my feelings towards psionics in this thread) that my issues (which I will no repeat here) have absolutely nothing to do with their power or balance in game. It has everything to do with aesthetics, redundancy, traditions, and the expenditures of time, effort, and money necessary to involve psionics in a game. They could be the most balanced, elegantly written part of 3.x D&D, and I still would cringe everytime they are mentioned.
I'll be quiet now....
I do think that we'd have seen more official support for psionics had not "Complete Psionics" not drawn such withering criticism from the small-but-vocal psionics fans.Huh? I didn't see that on these boards. I think the book is pretty good.
That said I think that the whole mantles thing seemed to suddenly be trumped by the Dragon Shaman Auras. Auras are pretty cool but I'm not exactly sure we needed two seperate systems that more or less do the same thing.
Also I kind of find the Lurk confusing but it might make mroe sense if I actually bother to stat one up.
Any way what was the problem? Why was the book badly recieved?
Jeremy, sorry, I didn't mean poorly received on the Paizo boards :) It did get lambasted severely on the WOTC boards, though. That said, I don't think it's nearly as bad as that crowd. An honest assessment would be that it contains LESS usable stuff than the very excellent Expanded Psionics Handbook, that's all. I'll direct you over to the Psionics boards at WOTC for more, um, detailed criticism of the book. If you decide to post, beware the flamers :)
An interesting and good 3rd party take on Psionics is "Hyperconscious". Of course, it's written by Bruce Cordell, who's responsible for 3rd edition psionics (and a good friend of Monte Cook; which is why it's published by Malhavoc Press). Not necessarily for the novice, though.
NPC Guy you asked about magic items and here is the lowdown-
psions have their own items for power
dorje=wand
psicrown=staff
cognizance crystal=pearl of power
psionic tattoo=potion
power stone=scroll
All of these are the same, ie. same AoO, same cost etc with one exception. The dorje is capable of going to 9th level where wands are limited to 4th. Also the dorje can be augmented by increasing the manifester level. The manifester level may be increased 5 level above the minimum. So a 1st level can go to 6th and 5th can go to 10th. What is interesting is that the cost is not any different from a wand. The augmentation usually increases the DC. So where augmenting a power can cost more vs a spell, dorjes have a distinct advantage. Crystal shard is a 1st level power that is a ranged touch. It does 1d6 points of physical damage. It can be augmented to 6th level and would do 6d6 points of damage. There is not a save or SR/PR check. It costs 2250 gp to make and cost 180xp. This breaks down to 45 gp and 3.6xp per use.
Crafting dorjes to use when PP are low offers a distinct advantage to the psion. Enough to overcome not finding them as part of treasure.
I would like to compare psionic feats to feats mages should take. Also looking at individual powers and spells themselves. The orb spells have been mentioned already. What other spells would be good to compare to powers?
The dorje is capable of going to 9th level where wands are limited to 4th. Also the dorje can be augmented by increasing the manifester level. The manifester level may be increased 5 level above the minimum. So a 1st level can go to 6th and 5th can go to 10th. What is interesting is that the cost is not any different from a wand. The augmentation usually increases the DC. So where augmenting a power can cost more vs a spell, dorjes have a distinct advantage. Crystal shard is a 1st level power that is a ranged touch. It does 1d6 points of physical damage. It can be augmented to 6th level and would do 6d6 points of damage. There is not a save or SR/PR check. It costs 2250 gp to make and cost 180xp. This breaks down to 45 gp and 3.6xp per use.
I think your mistaken on the cost here.
From the hypertext SRD
To create a dorje, a character needs a small supply of materials, the most obvious being a chunk of crystal or the crystal shards of the dorje to be carved from or assembled. The cost of the materials is subsumed in the cost of creating the dorje—375 gp × the level of the power × the level of the manifester. Dorjes are always fully charged (50 charges) when created.
If an augmentable power is incorporated into a dorje at a higher manifester level than the minimum level required to manifest the power, each discharge of the power from the dorje is augmented to the limit of that higher manifester level. Alternatively, if you want to have a higher manifester level in the dorje, you must pay for the dorje as if the power was one level higher for each additional two manifester levels you want. For example, energy missile is a 2nd-level kineticist power with a minimum manifester level of 3rd. If you wanted to make a dorje of energy missile with a manifester level of 8th (five higher than the minimum), you would pay for the creation of the dorje as if energy missile was a 5th-level power.
The tricky part is working out what level of a power an augumented power is. It would appear tha the level rises by 1 for every two levels its augumented - this is actually a complex way of saying it is the same as the highest power level that a manifestor can use at the level created, so if you augument a 1st level power to what it would do at best in the hands of a 3rd level manifestor then it counts as a 2nd level power, augument it to what a 5th level psion can do and now its a 3rd level power. Big exeption - strangly enough it seems from the example that this is all rounded up. So a 1st level power augumented for 6th level use would count as a 4th level power (augumenting it for 7th level use would also make it a 4th level power).
By my calculations we have this dorjes cost breakdown as follows
375 * Level of the Power * Level of the Manifestor
= 375 * 4 * 6
= 375 * 24
= 9000 gp and 360 xp
This is to make it - if you want to go out and purchase this dorje it will put you back a cool 18,000 gp.
Jeremy is there somewhere that says an augmented power is treated as a higher level power or that the cost is higher? From my perspective, the SRD reference did not clearly say this.
Jeremy is there somewhere that says an augmented power is treated as a higher level power or that the cost is higher? From my perspective, the SRD reference did not clearly say this.
The stuff I have in bold is a copy+paste from the hypertext SRD and that is where it states this (I should have put it in a quote box or at least in quotes to make it clear these are not my words).
I'll concede that the way they have worded it leaves much to be desired and I had to reread that paragraph a couple of times to make sure I got what was being said but essentially speaking they say in the 2nd paragraph I quoted that these things cost more and cement it with their energy missle example.
For the hard copy version see EPH, p. 181, first column, 3rd paragraph. As a bonus the example is a little different.
You can see what their trying to do with that paragraph which makes it a little easier to understand. The mechanic is basically if you augument a power so that only a 3rd level manifestor could use it then it counts as a 2nd level power, which makes since because a power augumented to to the 3rd manifestor level is on par with 2nd level spells and powers. One augumented to the 5th manifestor level is on par with 3rd level spells and powers etc.
OK then that is good enough for me. Sorry to have misinformed anyone but I did not see this in ExPHB.
Body adjustment (healing) is a 3rd level psion power and a 2nd level psychic warrior power. It is not as good as the cleric.
While I agree that a psionics can't compete with a divine caster for healing the ardent or divine mind from the Complete Psionic make a good backup if they take the life mantle. Two powers Touch of health (1st), and Mend wounds (6th) both have a range of touch even though they're less powerfull.
Touch of health 2 hp +2hp/pp
Mend wounds 55 hp +5hp/pp
The power From the Brink* (2nd)even lets you stabalize a target as an immediate action and has a short range 25+5/2lvls. If you augment it you can even keep them from falling unconcious.
Example: Thok the fighter takes a hit bringing him to -3 hp. 40 ft away Kern, a 7th level ardent, manifests From the Brink stabalizing him. If Kern spends an extra 4pp he keeps Thok at 1hp, possibly allowing Thok to finish off his opponent.
*(I honestly don't know if there even is a divine equivalent)
Another advantage a Psion has is he has the option of four energy descriptors when manifesting some powers. I'll use Energy ball as an example.
7th level kineticist Psion with energy sphere. long range 7d6 fire, cold, elecric, OR Sonic damage to a 20ft radius spread 1 standard action. (I don't know why the acid descriptor is limited to select powers only.)
To have the same versatility a 7th level Mage would have to have Fire ball and take Energy substitution as his 3rd, 5th, and 6th level Feats.
If he wanted cast them as a Standard action he would have to prepare each one, which would require him to be a specialist with at least a 16 int. Or he could prepare fireball twice and cast the spell as a full round action.
A sorceror would have to be 9th level just to have access to the three feats and would HAVE to cast the spells as a full round action.
By converting spell levels to PP this is how they compare-
character
level--wizard-sorcerer-psion
5th------14-----18------25
10th-----70----116------88
15th----174----268-----195
20th----324----486-----343Again bonus spells and PP for high ability scores are not included. I am presenting this listing so GMs and players can compare on their own the differences between these classes. The sorcerer benefits from more spells per day than spells known.
and
-5th level 19int(int 16+ 1 at 4th, +2 ability enhancing item
10th level 22int(int 16+ 2 at 8th, +4 ability enhancing item
15th level 25int(int 16+ 3 at 12th,+6 ability enhancing item
20th level 29int(int 16+ 5 at 16th and 20th,+6 ability item & +2 manualbonus spells and PP-
level---wizard----------------sorcerer----------psion
5th-----1,2,3(9PP)------------1,2(4PP)--------10PP (2)3 or 1,1,2,3
10th---1,1,2,2,3,4,5(29PP)--same as wizard--30PP (3)5,2 or (3)1,(2)2,3,4,5
15th--(2)1-3,4-7 (58PP)-----same as wizard--52PP (4)7 or (2)1,(2)3,4-7
20th-(3)1,(2)2-5,6-9 (107PP)-same/wizard----90PP (5)9,3 or 3,(2)5,6-9
I'm going to combine these two tables as I think their very interesting.
level--wizard-sorcerer-psion
5th------23-----22------35
10th-----99----145------118
15th----232----326-----247
20th----431----593-----433
I want to address a couple of issues that involve the psion and also the new class out of complete psionic.
First off I enjoy the ability that the psion character has when it comes to the freedom to raise the DC of his/her powers by adding as many power points as allowed up to its level. This can be done by neither the Wizard nor Sorcerer unless you have taken certain feats and that will raise their DC only to a certain extent.
Next thing that I like about the Psion is that they don’t need any spell components which can be huge if you’re strict with the use of components.
Then there is the Psicrystal which I find to be far superior to any familiar not to mention your enemy could pick up this gem mistaking it for treasure and you have a large advantage with your enemy holing on to your ally without even knowing.
There is also a lot of talk about versatility or lack of when it comes to the Psion. Well fear not for there is a new class in Complete Psionic called the Erudite which like the wizard has the freedom to choose from a large array of powers.
Well that’s my take on psionics and some of the benefits that come with these classes. I understand that some can’t get past the use of non-traditional classes within there game but for someone that’s played this wonderful came since the late 70’s I revel in the use of psionic characters. For just like life itself you sometimes have to think outside the proverbial box to get things done.
Body adjustment (healing) is a 3rd level psion power and a 2nd level psychic warrior power. It is not as good as the cleric.
Another advantage a Psion has is he has the option of four energy descriptors when manifesting some powers. I'll use Energy ball as an example.
7th level kineticist Psion with energy sphere. long range 7d6 fire, cold, elecric, OR Sonic damage to a 20ft radius spread 1 standard action. (I don't know why the acid descriptor is limited to select powers only.)
To have the same versatility a 7th level Mage would have to have Fire ball and take Energy substitution as his 3rd, 5th, and 6th level Feats.
If he wanted cast them as a Standard action he would have to prepare each one, which would require him to be a specialist with at least a 16 int. Or he could prepare fireball twice and cast the spell as a full round action.
A sorceror would have to be 9th level just to have access to the three feats and would HAVE to cast the spells as a full round action.
Here I think your comparing apples and oranges and deciding that apples are better. A Sorcerer simply would not deal with this issue by picking up all these energy feats. Its an obvious waste. Maybe he'd pick up one feat - maybe (I wouldn't). I'd overcome the problem, presuming I'm a blaster (not the optimum sorcerer in my opinion in any case - don't damage your opponents - incapacitate them) through spell selection. Essentially thats magic missile as one of my first level spells, scorching ray as one of my second level spells, lightning bolt as a third level spell and ice storm as a 4th level spell. In this case I have access to a wide array of different energy types and the spells themselves operate differently with different spells being the preferred choice depending on the circumstance. scorching ray can hit different targets far apart or can be used with pin point accuracy into the middle of my friends. lightning bolt is a line and can mow down tons of enemies coming down a corridor while ice storm will do nicely for that clumped up group of enemies and slow them down to boot.
Then there is the Psicrystal which I find to be far superior to any familiar not to mention your enemy could pick up this gem mistaking it for treasure and you have a large advantage with your enemy holing on to your ally without even knowing.
Careful with this thing. Its great at low levels when its really hard to spot - but that Dragon has a +22 to spot. The tiny modifier of -6 won't mean jack at the higher levels and it will definitely get squashed. Generally unless its bonus is really integral to your character build I'd ditch the Psicrystal. At mid to high levels its going to start dieing all the friggen time. Familiars tend to have this problem too - either go with an improved familiar (dragon wyrmlings are a neat and suprisingly effective choice) or use the PHB2 rules to ditch the familiar for a different ability.
Jeremy I fully agree with you about the psicrystals & familiars when you move up to the higher levels, but as you point out it's universal for all types of allies at higher levels that don't have the parties levels and skills. I just was pointing out that in my mind when you take hardness and the construct traits along with all the other bonuses that come along with the psicrystals I think your better off with them as your ally.
We also play with the psionics are different (diminished effect) rules which adds a little twist to the game and we enjoy that alot.
I'm also just defending my favorite classes in the game for some fellow gamers are very hard on the psionic classes (Psion, Psychic Warrior etc..)and I believe there is room for them in the game.