Ok for the past few weeks my role-playing group and I have been discussing a question of demon lords vs archdukes of Hell. Who is the most powerful Demon Lord and the most powerful Archduke? The latter was ansewered fairly quickly, Asmodues THE Archduke and ruler of Baator. We got caught up on the demon lord and finally settled on Orcus. He is the closes of the major demon lords(not counting Lolth she is already a god and I don't want to get into the discussion of 'she could owner all the Demon Lords and Archdukes' already because she is a god) in achieving godhood and his cults are as numerous on the Material Plane as Asmodues'.
So round one Orcus vs. Asmodeus
Condition - Trapped on the Material Plane and they cannot get back to there prospective planes. They can do any other ability that there stat blocks say except teleport off the Material Plane. They can also teleport around the Material Plane if they wish. They encounter each other and the fight is on!
I bet Demogorgon could whup boff em at the same time.
Besides, Azzy would just try to make a deal or something. :D
Would it be germaine to check their Challenge Ratings vs. each other? From the Fiendish Codexes 1 & 2, there's a massive difference beween them. Asmodeus is CR 27, while Orcus is CR 22 (one less than the current Prince of Demons, Demogorgon.)
Of course, even that's not one hundred percent the whole story, because as a seperate example, Dagon's got a CR 22 aspect in the Fiendish Codex, but there's a more powerful version of him published months later in Dragon Magazine 349... CR 30!
So are the CRs of Asmodeus and Orcus relevant, and to what degree?
It seems a bit to me like a lot of the Archdevils lean towards being... better than the Demon Lords in the Fiendish Codexes. I wonder if it's because there are more demons and if they were equal to most devils, they'd steamroll through Hell, or if it's just because Tyrants of the 9 Hells was written after Hordes of the Abyss, so the devil favoring writters could look at FC1 and adjust the archdevils to better then the demons.
On a seperate note... because of his quasi-not-quite-undead-but-embodying-it status, Orcus has a big load of immunities... pretty much all of the immunities undead have, so that may render some of Asmodeus's powers defunct.
I don't know, for a long time Asmodeus has been hinted at as being powerful beyond what any "normal" arch fiend is, and is probably the least likely of any of the arch devil's to be caught on the material plane. In a lot of ways Asmodeus IS hell. If there were some kind of bizzare planar conjunction and Orcus and Asmodeus both had all of their powers that they would have on their native domains, Asmodeus would definately wipe the lower planes with Orcus.
As has been pointed out above, for raw power Demogorgon has always been assumed to be the most powerful known demon prince. Even at that, if you had the same kind of "planar conjunction" fight between Demogorgon and Asmodeus, the King of Hell is still going to come out ahead.
Now Mephistophiles and Demogorgon might be a bit more of an even fight.
Creative Director
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In the original 1st edition Monster Manual, Demogorgon was easily the most powerful demon lord, while Asmodeus was the most powerful arch devil. Between the two, Demogorgon was probably a hair more powerful than Asmodeus. These power levels have more or less remained constant throughout all editions of the game; Demogorgon's still the most powerful demon lord, and Asmodeus is still the most powerful arch devil. Concepts like stat blocks for aspects don't really count in matching power levels, since an aspect can range from CR 10 or so on up to effectively infinitely high, depending on where you, the DM, decide to cut it off and say at what level the aspect is actually the demon prince or arch devil in the flesh. (In my opinion, that level is around CR 26-32).
As to who would win in a fight between Demogorgon and Asmodeus... my money's on Demogorgon. But asking that question is kind of like asking someone: "What's better: cats or dogs?" It mostly depends on if you're asking the guy who prefers devils or prefers demons.
I'm going to say Asmodeus. If you have the Fiendish Codex II it say Asmodeus is injuried from his fall and every drop of his blood turns into an elite pit fiend. I know thats just fluff, but still seems bad ass. Plus he's taken on several Archdukes at one time and no ones has come close to stoping him. I still think Asmodeus, but I like devils better than demons....
Fizz
Am thinking Asmodeus; he is such a powerful entities with layers of power that we cannot really be certain how he would fight; I think he is much smarter and much more deceptive than Orcus who is a much more in your face type fighter; in a tooth and claw match, Orcus would have a slight edge; in any other type of fight, I think Asmodeus would win. Consider that Asmodeus can take on all the other Dukes of Hell all at once and come out on top in fighting prowess, magic, deception, power brokering, and just plain dirty pool per the latest shake up per all the published D&D gaming works, there is whispered that their may be only one devil more powerful or older; Asmodeus is old beyond comprehension, even the full dieties that live in the nine hells give him respect as is his due. Orcus is certainly powerful, but I just dont think he is as powerful on all the differing levels of power that the Big A is attributed. Of course, just the armies each of them can summon would destroy the material plane; every creature in Hell is subject to the call of Big A; so he can get a big army faster and I am not sure that Orcus could maintain control of the undead he summons from the devils; would be interesting, and orcus can only summon a few creatures by name or gating.
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Are you kidding, James?!
I know you like Demogorgon cause he had a whopping ONE more hit point than Asmodeus back in the day but there is no way dog boy could handle him! One smack of the Ruby Rod and Demowhatsimagorgon is toast! Heck, Ygorl and his Reaper could cut down Demoshmorgon.
My money would be on any of the Arch Devils (except Tiamat, the dumb beast) over any Demon lords and not just because I signed that Faustian pact that'll send mom and dad to Glasya when they, uh, accidently pass on.
BTW, Lolth only has 66 hit points -- check out the real Fiend Folio or Dieties and Demigods if you don't believe me. The drow lovers of Faerun may consider her tuff stuff but come on, Laveth almost took her out back in Dungeon 84, right?
With smiles,
W. E. Ray
Oh come on folks, Sehan wins fleshy pseudopods down.
It could take all the demons in the Abyss and all the devils in Hell sit them down and make them play nice (parts of it).
Far Realms "gods" rule! And will do so again when the stars come right.
ia, ia,
GGG
PS Though if it came down to it between these two I gotta go Azzy, he's the outsider with the plan, and even the local gods give him props.
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Oh come on folks, Sehan wins fleshy pseudopods down.
It could take all the demons in the Abyss and all the devils in Hell sit them down and make them play nice (parts of it).
Far Realms "gods" rule! And will do so again when the stars come right.
ia, ia,
GGGPS Though if it came down to it between these two I gotta go Azzy, he's the outsider with the plan, and even the local gods give him props.
The question is, would Sehan care if Asmodeus and Orcus were feuding?
The question is, would Sehan care if Asmodeus and Orcus were feuding?Oh come on folks, Sehan wins fleshy pseudopods down.
It could take all the demons in the Abyss and all the devils in Hell sit them down and make them play nice (parts of it).
Far Realms "gods" rule! And will do so again when the stars come right.
ia, ia,
GGGPS Though if it came down to it between these two I gotta go Azzy, he's the outsider with the plan, and even the local gods give him props.
What is this thing - care, that you type of?
;)
GGG
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Pure stats do not matter........
You cannot think of Asmodeus as a simple being to be thrown into a single combat situation....
Asmoedeus is the ruler ......of the the Nine Hells. He has vassals to do his bidding and they are themselves Arch-Devils..though many may hate him and despise his rulership they cannot come to defying his will. Even the most powerful such as Mephistopholes or Beezlebub bow at his feet...this is respect. Why? Why does not just 2 or 3 of the vassals just take him out in single combat? It is simple...it's Asmodeus's retinue.
Asmosdeus's personal bodyguard consists of 66 Companies of Elite Pit Fiends.....I didn't say 66, I said 66 companies....comprising a number of somewhere between 6 to 7 thousand of some of the most feared creatures to exist in the nether planes....demon or devil. Not to mention that if he bleeds, a drop of his blood will produce another Pit Fiend.
The poll is folly.....Asmosdeus would never travel without his bodyguard.....and I do not see any situation where he would ever have to face a demon lord in single combat...though it is fun to consider.
I would definitely put Demogorgon as the chief demon....he is awesome. Orcus is a sniveling liar and deceiver and would rather look for the backdoor to cut and run rather than fight.
There's my 2 coppers.....
Scorba
Interesting also, is that Big A rules the 9 hells even though dieties who are much more powerful than him stat-wise live in the hells. Why do them submit to his will? I have my own ideas, but Goat face the demon cannot even rule more than a few layers of the abyss; hehe what I love is the hints that their is a demon even older than Big A that possibly has been pulling his strings and giving him marching orders for eons as hinted in the D&D book of evil.
I've always though of demons as more primal, beast-like creatures, while devils are more quiet, cunning, and intelligent. So, thinking along those lines, the arch demons (in general) may be more powerful physically than their arch devil counterparts, and would probably win in a pure hand-to-hand combat type of fight, but the devils would always win in any fight that involved any amount of planning, stategy, tactics, etc.
Oh come on folks, Sehan wins fleshy pseudopods down.
It could take all the demons in the Abyss and all the devils in Hell sit them down and make them play nice (parts of it).
Far Realms "gods" rule! And will do so again when the stars come right.
ia, ia,
GGG
And even then... in the depths, Father Dagon would watch... and wait.... knowing that even this would pass. The stars have come right and wrong many times in Father Dagon's eyes, and it has patience such as to outwait timelessness.
Drakli
P.S. If you're gonna play the Cthulhu-esque card, so am I. ^.~
Ohhh
It looks like Orcus got the crap kick out of him by Big Red summoning the aspects of two other Archdukes instead of dealing with the Lord of the Undead himself. But wait.... what is this..... Demogorgan has come in with the tag team relief that the Lord of Undead needs. Ohhhhh....never mine that was just a coup de grace and Demo takes up the mantle of the Lord of Demons and Undead.
So here we are....
Round two Demogorgan vs. Asmodues
Ohhh
Round two Demogorgan vs. Asmodues
Round two over Asmodeus still wins bring law to the abyss
Fizz
Asmodeus win by pitting the two intellects that comprise Demogorgon against each other but not before getting smacked around like never before in his eons of existence.
You've got to be kidding. There's even a question?
First, Orcus is far cooler than some two-headed, scaly, tentacled, ape-shit thing (i.e., Demogorgon), and could easily wipe baboon-butt with the Rod of Orcus... unless Dagon decided to intervene on the side of his "pupil." Then Orcus would likely go down. I personally believe Dagon is probably truly the most powerful demon out there, and even Demogorgon is merely riding on his slimy coat-tails.
But, all that said, they can not even dare to compete with Asmodeus, and I'm a demon lover! Asmodeus is power. I mean, look at the saves you have to make just not to bow down and serve this guy! How freaking awesome is that?
Anyone with any ranks in Knowledge (the Planes) knows that Asmo was once a greater deity, perhaps even something more, like an Overgod, before he fell. Even now, he is the very manifestation of Lawful Evil. No demon is smarter, or stronger, or more patient, or has more resources than the Prince of Darkness.
Even if the Ebon Triad managed to pull off their crazed dreams and create a fusion of three dread gods, Asmodeus would still reign supreme over it.
None can claim any hope to defeat Asmodeus!
Oh, and leave that Cthulhu-crap out of here. When the insane giant squids decide to care and conform to our laws of realty, they can play in the sandbox! Until then, no cosmic power for you!
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A-MEN!
Preach it Brother Saern.
Orcus may be cooler than Demoshmorgon but I have to admit that dog/octo-boy would whoop up on 'im.
None come close to Asmodeus, though. I may have an intrinsic fear of Cthulu and Hastur but they're just not D&D. In my home-brew, admitedly, the Ninth Circle is modeled after the Far Realms -- architecture wise.
-W. E. Ray
I gotta admit, between the two books, I adored FC1 above and beyond FC2. But to remain brief, I have no love for the archdevils. They seem like what James Jacobs described in Dungeon #147's editorial as "all just guys with horns and goatees." Most of the demon lords hardly look human, if identifiable at all, especially the obyriths. That level of original design and how that design in reflected in their distinct personalities and individual layers of the Abyss makes them far more fascinating creatures.
Furthermore, upon looking at the "stats" for the archdevils, I was not only surprised to see that they were merely for "aspects"--weaker versions, by and large--but that they were of CR 26-30 range. I tried to look at this as a benefit for epic-level players, but for most non-epic games, this seems like too steep a challenge, without some allowances being made. (Seems like "one-upsmanship" from ol' Asmodeus, eh?)
Personally, I like the demon lords, but find Fraz-Urb'luu to be my favorite. His Deception ability seems like such a "jerk move", that he is likely to be hated by PCs for all kinds of different reasons, namely forcing a fight with another demon lord. If he were fighting an archdevil, this strategy might give him the edge he needed...if the demon lords didn't annihilate him themselves for his practice of doing this.
Book of Vile Darkness Asmodeus CR32 Orcus CR28
Fiendish Codex I & II Asmodeus CR27 Orcus CR22
I know CR's only tell so much, but I think the general WotC opinion is that the Big-A the the man however Orcus would still make me wet myself.
Fizz
And round two is over.....
The broken body of Orcus lays in ruins after the coup de grace from the Princes of Demons. And even Demogorgan appears to not to be able to defeat the Ruler of Hell himself....is there anyone that can defeat the all powerful Asmodues?....I think not.
Now moving on from the fight. The possbile of Asmodeus being an overdeity has be a hotty argue topic on this forum. IS it possible that Asmodues was perharps....gasp...an elder evil that was able to manifest himself in a form of an angleic crusader for the forces of good all along schemeing to take his our corner of the multiverse. And remember my devil loving friends that no demon lords controls more than three layers of the Abyss, I believe that would be Graz'zt, and Asmodues controls ALL nine layers of Hell no matter who he puts in charge as a de facto leader.
So in retrospect
Asmodues 2 : The other forces of Evil 0
Asmodues 1 : The forces of Good 0
And as for the 'Far Realm' "dieties" Asmodues has plans for you when demon and celestial problems have been dealt with
There's not a hope in Hell (pun intended) that Orcus would beat Asmodeus. No bias here, demons and devils are friggin' cool. But this is a no brainer.
Besides their stats, just look at their toys. The Wand of Orcus wont do squat to Asmodeus and the Ruby Rod has the Reverie of Nessus power, which means you basically got fight Asmodeus twice. Its like Asmodeus has a Transformer while Orcus had to settle for a Go-Bot.
Now if Fraz-Urb'Luu had his Staff (Dragon #333), that would be an interesting battle.
James, you've, ah, been awful quiet since you posted your vote for Demowhatsimagorgon.
Have we changed your mind?
-W. E. Ray
Lol. Y'know Molech, that avatar of yours suits what you say here perfectly.
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Ya know, I've actually thought about starting a thread begging for them to add a few more Avatar choices. I REALLY want the original MM pic of Asmodeus as my Avatar. His eyes, even in black and white, eeeeeeiiiiooouuuu, they're freaky.
Besides, what with the cancellation of the beloved mags the folks at Paizo have nothing better to do, right?
-W. E. Ray
Oh, and leave that Cthulhu-crap out of here. When the insane giant squids decide to care and conform to our laws of realty, they can play in the sandbox! Until then, no cosmic power for you!
That's okay little infernalings. You can keep your sandbox, and kiddy table, were you play at having cosmic powers, amidst your Happy Meal toys like so many clinically obese toddlers. Everything so black and white, so law and chaos. One day you'll grow up enough to see what life really looks like and go screaming back to childhood ignorance or perhaps sweet oblivion sucking your thumb. We know what the true reality looks like. You can't handle the truth....
Breakin' the Law! Breakin' the Law!
The Great Green (Outer) God
Or for another horrific take on the same argument, we've got diplomatic immunity from your so-called "laws." The Great Old Ones are kinda like Halliburtun in that respect. They bought their own country (Dubai) and then moved their company and part of their mercenary army (Blackwater) there just like some Shadowrun megacorp.
To misquote a senior corporate representative: "You can take your tax codes, regulatory laws and so-called ethics and bite me. Bite me hard! Heck, I could shot you in the face and no one would blink twice about it over here." - BlingMaster Dickey C.
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Who knew Hastur....
-W. E. Ray
Dude! don't say his name!!
::Pulls out 1st edition Deities and Demigods flips to page 45, scans texts, rolls percentiles. Whew! Close one.::
;)
GGG
I never liked the idea of Asmodeus being a greater power and opposite to the greater power of the Heavens. Here are a few reasons why in no specific order..
1) Being more powerful than the demon princes is one thing being an overpower is quite another. It places any noteworthy actions in the Nine Hells out of the question. Asmodeus is only going to allow so much carnage. Yes I know that he could test his archdevils but in the end he would only be toying with the PCs and that is not fun for everyone.
2) Demon lords and the archdevils make excellent final BBEG. Just look at some adventure paths or FC 1 and FC 2. Demigods also fill this role making any fiend lord higher takes them out of the equation.
3) If you want a ultimate evil you have Tharizdun. Whom this idea of Asmodeus seems to be very similar to; having great power but unable to bring it all to bear.
4) If the greatest beings in existence are on the lawful side where does that leave the chaotic powers. Are the eladrin weaker than archon? The gods certainly are spread throughout. Zeus and Odin are two of the most powerful. If solars were only lawful then this could have some clout but angels range throughout all good alignments. In the end this sounds like Lawful propoganda.
Asmodeus is power. I mean, look at the saves you have to make just not to bow down and serve this guy! How freaking awesome is that?
Which, incidentally, neither Orcus, nor Dagon would need to make, seeing as they're both immune to mind affecting effects.
Interestingly... neither Orcus nor Asmodeus would be immune to Dagon's doomsong. You have to be both immune to mind affecting and sonic effects to ignore the lure of the doomsong.
Of course, I dunno if Dagon should even be brought into this. He's possibly as old as the Abyss itself, and would probably just as soon wait for entropy to crumble the thrones of Law (now /that's/ patience... or sloth,) as bother getting into a pointless toussle with Azzy. Of course... it's also worth noting he's one of the only Obyrinths that the Queen of Chaos didn't dare to try and press-gang into service... and I have a feeling the Queen of Chaos was nothing to sneeze at.
Ya know, I've actually thought about starting a thread begging for them to add a few more Avatar choices. I REALLY want the original MM pic of Asmodeus as my Avatar. His eyes, even in black and white, eeeeeeiiiiooouuuu, they're freaky.
Besides, what with the cancellation of the beloved mags the folks at Paizo have nothing better to do, right?
-W. E. Ray
Yeah, there is something very disturbing about those eyes in th ol' 1E MM. Unlike the pic of Orcus, who just looks like a pig with wings. And since we're on the topic, what's up with Demogorgon anyways? The most powerful and terrifying prince of demons is a giant, 2-headed....baboon. Even the more recent good pictures of him don't really strike fear or awe, he's just a big monkey.
Yeah, there is something very disturbing about those eyes in th ol' 1E MM. Unlike the pic of Orcus, who just looks like a pig with wings. And since we're on the topic, what's up with Demogorgon anyways? The most powerful and terrifying prince of demons is a giant, 2-headed....baboon. Even the more recent good pictures of him don't really strike fear or awe, he's just a big monkey.
You, sir, have obviously never tangled with an angry baboon. To be honest, neither have I, but even lions are careful around those guys. Non-human primates get a bad rap because when people think monkeys or apes, they think comical, but pound for pound, those guys are stronger than humans and some (chimps and baboons) are nearly as crazy.
I'm good with fearing Demogorgon as a baboon-headed demon prince, thank you. *grumbles curmudgeonly-like at the hyena-head make-over in BoVD*
You, sir, have obviously never tangled with an angry baboon. To be honest, neither have I, but even lions are careful around those guys. Non-human primates get a bad rap because when people think monkeys or apes, they think comical, but pound for pound, those guys are stronger than humans and some (chimps and baboons) are nearly as crazy.I'm good with fearing Demogorgon as a baboon-headed demon prince, thank you. *grumbles curmudgeonly-like at the hyena-head make-over in BoVD*
You're right about monkeys being stereotyped and yes, an angry babbon in real life would be down right scary. Even my pet cat can be scary when she's pissed. But for me, when something carries the title of Prince of Demons it just doesn't conjure up images of baboons. Its just too hard for me to take seriously.
Oh yeah, that hyena make-over was lame!
While I am a sole support for Big A and all his mechanism and schemes...I will have to say that I like the new make of Demogorgan with the hyena heads out of the Book of Vile Darkness. When I found out that he originally was a baboon headed schizo it just didn't seem right. But this is all possible because I am a new gamer in terms having never play 2.0.
agreed
Baboons are creepy, nasty, evil looking things when angry. I think we tend to think of primates in their "peaceful" state, especially if most of the time we see them picking nits off one another at the zoo. There was a reason that all of those "gorilla monsters" in Robert E Howard stories were scarry . . . no matter how strong Conan was, an angry ape is going to snap him in half if he gets his paws on the Cimmerian.
Being a demon prince I'm sure that Demogorgon can change the appearance of his heads at a whim. The baboon headed Demogorgon is the original though (as far as heads go). Perhaps he briefly made his heads into hyeena heads after trying to steal some of Yeenoghu's followers.
Of course Asmodeus has never had to stoop to such tactics!
I never liked the idea of Asmodeus being a greater power and opposite to the greater power of the Heavens...
4) If the greatest beings in existence are on the lawful side where does that leave the chaotic powers...
Elementary, my dear Baramay . . . the powers of Chaos . . . are legion.
Being a demon prince I'm sure that Demogorgon can change the appearance of his heads at a whim. The baboon headed Demogorgon is the original though (as far as heads go). Perhaps he briefly made his heads into hyeena heads after trying to steal some of Yeenoghu's followers.
Of course Asmodeus has never had to stoop to such tactics!
I agree with this. Demogorgan would do anything to gain more followers seen as how demon worshippers have the tendace to change if bribe or bullied enough.
Big A's apperance has not changed from the material that I am be gathering from 2.0. My fav pic of him is in the Book of Vile Darkness just standing there. It almost looks like he was posing for someone to paint him in all his infernal glory.
Elementary, my dear Baramay . . . the powers of Chaos . . . are legion.I never liked the idea of Asmodeus being a greater power and opposite to the greater power of the Heavens...
4) If the greatest beings in existence are on the lawful side where does that leave the chaotic powers...
This thread was not orginally about law vs. chaos, but I have come to see that those two things are at the very core of the Blood War and the reasons why the Demon Lords and Archdukes fight each and themselves. However it also shows that the powers of evil will always be divided weather lawful, chaotic, or neutral.
The powers of good the angels, eldarins, archons, and etc... are powerful. They get along and cooperate willing with each other. They have there arguements and disagreements here and their, but they work to common of good of the destruction of evil. Asmodues knows this having been in that camp. And while everyone is fighting each other he slowly plans, manipulates, and assasinates his way to godhood.
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Being a demon prince I'm sure that Demogorgon can change the appearance of his heads at a whim. The baboon headed Demogorgon is the original though (as far as heads go). Perhaps he briefly made his heads into hyeena heads after trying to steal some of Yeenoghu's followers.
Of course Asmodeus has never had to stoop to such tactics!
Man, if he changed them to look like Paris Hilton and Nicole Richie, that'd be cuh-razy.
My fav pic of him is in the Book of Vile Darkness just standing there. It almost looks like he was posing for someone to paint him in all his infernal glory.
I want whatever edition of Vile Darkness you got then, because the picture of Asmodeus in mine looks like a Joke! His hair (or at least I hope its his hair) seems to outstretch itself like wings! Or more likely it's trying to be a bigger set of horns than the dinghy little nubs sticking out of his forehead. And the expression on his face looks even poncier (foppish) than all the flumphs in Flumphland!
Seriously, regardless of stats or crunch, Asmodeus looks like a joke.