|
I know this was mentioned in passing in another thread, but I can't find it now, so I am starting this one to collect ideas.
What about the planes and the planar layout? I read somewhere on this board where James Jacobs or another offical from Paizo saying that the Great Wheel approach was WotC Material but that Pathfinder's world would use something similar. I for one believe the Planes have been begging for a revamp for years but I know that people have different vision for what this may be.
Do people want:
- A "Great Wheel"-like layout, just different enough to keep WotC lawyers at bay (perhaps like FR is "same but different")
- Something like Eberron's planar layout with the other planes "rising" and "falling", influencing things on the prime as they change relationships with one another (Sorry, I'm not an Ebberon guy, so I may have this a bit wrong)
- Something new/radical altogether
- What about their relationship to law/chaos/good/evil? Is this needed anymore?
We need to keep in mind the spells we have (reference to shadow, elemental, astral, ethereal planes) but these "inner and transitive planes" can be envisioned in many ways and the outer planes can be wholly redone. What are your thoughts on the planes? Is a revamp needed and if so, what direction should it go in? Should a Sigil-like place exist for certain, or should the layout allow such a place if DM's want to add it without specifically placing it in the multiverse?
While at first it may seem that planes are not much of an initial concern, the basis for at least some of the monsters we plan on creating will be based on planar relationships and any reasonably high level AP could involve the planes at least obliquely if not more directly. Also, things like the gods and their relationship to one another relies on having at least some sort of planar structure.
My vision would have the outer planes blended far more than they are now. There are too many planes and the planar setup is too fractured. We don't need a Celestia and an Elesium, a Hell and an Abyss. With the planes infinite in size and variety, the distinction is really academic anyway. I really am not fond of the "layer" structure either, feeling that only futher fractures the planes, creating arbitrary distinctions where none are needed. There is no reason why the Deamonweb Pits has to be on a certain layer of the Abyss (yes, yes I know, the Demonweb Pits aren't OGL, but you get the idea). I could even see chaos increasing as one gets "farther/deeper" on any plane until the structure of the multiverse comes completely apart in the Far Realm, which lies at the very edge of all reality. Focusing on the inner planes, I like the idea of elemental planes but i see these blended as well, possibly having para-elemental planes where one planar region contacts its neighbor without there being a distinct boundary between the planes. The transitive planes would be the trickiest to handle since there are numerous spells and items that access these places and while I think they too need work and a "blending", I am not certain how to do this and not break the spells and items that make use of them.
Oh well, just some mad ramblings of a planar traveller...
I'd almost say that Law/Chaos isn't as much of a "big deal" except that demons and devils in D&D are very much separate entities, and I can't picture them living in the same "Evil" plane, at least not unless there is a clear division of some kind between the "Devil" side of the "Hell" and the "Demon" side.
Some of the other "iconic" planar creatures aren't OGL, so its harder to justify a split in the planes. For some reason I can almost picture Eladrin's and Archons in the same plane, with Eledrin's being the more proactive, reactionary celestials.
I do wish we had an OGL "Chaos" planar creature, mainly because I like Slaad . . . Inevitables work as a sort of "cosmic repair crew" that show up to enforce the rules of the multiverse, without opposition, since I think there is enough in the universe to unravel the rules to keep them busy. If they do get an opposing force, a chaotic force that is just interested in unraveling the universe and its laws for the sake of doing it (rather than the Slaad, that seem more obsessed with procreating and basic survival), would be interesting.
I kind of like various pantheon's having a "base" common plane.
I like the idea of outer planes sorted and created by groups of deities (subpantheons and pantheonal alliances and such), rather than purely by alignment. In the Great Wheel, what happens to a LE worshipper of Nerull? Does he go to Carceri or Hell?
I like the idea of blending some planes. I kind of like the idea of having just a "Heaven" to represent the unity of goodness, though this might sit at odds with the aforementioned pantheon-centered approach.
Also, how about this for the Netherworld?
When the multiverse was created, darkness was thrown into the farthest regions and sat as void. From this chaotic, formless space came demons. However, when Asmodeus fell (or whatever/whoever in Pathfinder) into the void, he created a land within it. At there very center, their rises a great spire of rock, which simply becomes Asmodeus's own thrown at the very pinnacle. Along the "slopes" of the mountain (a theoretically infinite amount of space with such a low grade it could be flat plains or even have ridges that form "sub mountains") is the domain of his conspirators who fell with him, along with the legions of the devils. Eventually, the land levels out into a flat plain, a gray, blasted land (Gray Wastes of Hades; yugoloths go here), at at the very edge, the land is clawed at by the chaotic void and the demons within. (The volcanic slopes of Gehenna become this area, descending down into the vast, varied landscapes of the Abyss, which truly is an Abyss trailing off towards some theoretical, inifinte void beneath them).
All one plane, but with a very unique structure and containing all of the fiends and even allowing room for the Blood War to continue, as the demons see all other fiends as being worthy of just as much annihilation as everything else in the universe. Worse, they're intruding on the demon's void and trying to bring form to it.
Now, away from the underworld- I like the thought of each Material world as being it's own plane. The "inner planes" would be these various other worlds. Then you have "middle planes" or something like that, which include the transitives and the elemental, as well as energy planes. They stand between the inner and outer planes.
How's that?
I know this was mentioned in passing in another thread, but I can't find it now, so I am starting this one to collect ideas.
What about the planes and the planar layout? I read somewhere on this board where James Jacobs or another offical from Paizo saying that the Great Wheel approach was WotC Material but that Pathfinder's world would use something similar. I for one believe the Planes have been begging for a revamp for years but I know that people have different vision for what this may be.
Very good topic. I'm with you; the old planar structure needs a revamp (and seeing as its WotC's property, it'll have to be anyway.) I personally prefer that the prime material plane be just that - prime. I would like to see the focus of most of the Pathfinder adventures take place in the real, material world. Along with the fortune of adventuring should come fame; what good is kicking a demon lord's behind if no-one in the real world sees you do it? In my campaigns, I like to give my players the sense of being real true world-saving heroes and the fame that comes with it.
That being said, the bad guys have to come from somewhere. My personal opinion is that the fewer the planes, the better. Eberron's setup is rather good; I like the "solar system" approach to their planes, and the rather nasty side effects when planes intersect. I'm not saying ditch all the planes, but pare the numbers down. As for the law/chaos/good/evil thing, I think that we can't necessarily get completely away from it - its one of those iconic things that make the game D&D. I wouldn't mind seeing the planes not so attached to alignment though.
You're right - we don't necessarily need handfuls of Good Planes and Bad Planes; a few will do. Plus the addition of the Really Really REALLY Bad Plane where Paizo's obyrith demons live (I love those guys - they make Orcus look like a girl scout) would be icing on the cake.
The things I don't like about Eberron's planes is that
A) They lump together a lot of creatures that in traditional D&D don't live on the same plane, this change in mindset bugs me. I don't care if there is one "Hell" with Chaotic and lawful territories, because there are still "archdevils" in the lawful part and "demon lords" in the chaotic part. But when you have fire devils and fire demons living in the same plane with fire elementals and efreeti, it just muddies how D&D traditionally works.
B) They feel more like sci fi/comic book "alternate dimensions" than mythological planes of existance, at least to me.
I'd favor a single Hell with the devils ruling the Infernal cities and the demons mostly being in the wilderness. It'd separate them out and make some clear distinctions between them without having to deal with the address, ZIP code and phone number of a zillion different planar locations -- most of which can just be walked to by taking a trip through Sigil, anyway, negating most of the value of "layers," IMO.
I'd favor a single Hell with the devils ruling the Infernal cities and the demons mostly being in the wilderness. It'd separate them out and make some clear distinctions between them without having to deal with the address, ZIP code and phone number of a zillion different planar locations -- most of which can just be walked to by taking a trip through Sigil, anyway, negating most of the value of "layers," IMO.
That's how I do it in my campaign.
GGG
I want to see option 1: "A "Great Wheel"-like layout, just different enough to keep WotC lawyers at bay (perhaps like FR is "same but different").
I've come to realize over time that the Great Wheel is my campaign setting of choice, and the Material Plane worlds can be shoehorned into it. That's one of the main reasons I dislike Eberron, and the retconned FR cosmology has turned me off the setting.
Personaly I like the idea of the diety grouped planes, but then again that is just my personal opinon.
|
|
Demons and Devils (and their associated planes, the Bloodwar et. al.) are deeply entrenched in the D&D psyche, and so I understand the desire to keep the concepts of Hell and the Abyss. But let me explain to you one way I see this "blending" working in a new planar cosmology to better illustrate my point that the planes need not be alignment based or as fractured as they are currently represented.
There is a place of unmitigated evil. It is known alternatively as Hades, Hell, The Abyss, The Underworld and by other names depending on culture. One region of this place is regimented and held under strict control by the Devils. Here the various arch devils plot from their thrones. Some of these beings have established strongholds in the bottoms of vast chasms, others atop forested mountains, and others on smoking volcanic plains. These arch devils all work toward the common goal of destroying their enemies, the demons, even as they maneuver to better their own positions in the hierarchy. The Demons are analogous to the barbarians of ancient Rome. Led by charismatic, powerful demon lords, they wage an unending war on the organized society of devils, conquring and enslaving their own if it suits their purposes. They strike from their hidden fortresses in slime-filled pits, the hearts of volcanoes, islands in acidic seas and from the frozen wastelands. The vast armies of these two cultures, both augmented by other fiends (the yugalthos among others) that care for nothing but slaughter, war ceaselessly over a vast area in which neither side controls for long, vast plains of dust and shattered mountains filled with the detrius of war. All of this serves as a backdrop for the more isolated areas: the cave at the heart of a diseased jungle where the queen of all spiders lives, the frozen ice palace where a lord of slaughter destroys all that enter, and stinking plains that writhe with larval souls of primes that have lived corrupted lives. And far beyond the regimented fortresses of the devils' armies, beyond the encampments of the demon hordes, at the edge of the place where even demons will not willingly go is the Far Realm, undulating and pulsing like a rotted corpse infested with maggots, the vast tentacles of Those That Wait Beyond thumping incessantly at the barrier between worlds.
This is the kind of thing I would like to see. Primal, flexible, unconcerned with alignment per se, especially the alignments of the souls of primes that make their way there.
I tend to dislike alignment-based planes. Not to the extent that I want all the demons split up among multiple other planes, Eberron-style. One thing I do like is the Manifest Zones in Eberron, and something that lets certain areas have bleed-through from alternate planes would be really nice.
What I'd like to see is alternate planes that fit into three categories.
1: Places that have always existed and that will always exist (elemental planes fit this, but so might other "concept"-based planes, or even an alignment-based plane like a place of pure evil).
2: Planes that fragmented off the Prime Material plane and became their own entities. This could be from a "alternate histories" perspective, or because of a drastic phenomenon (for example, a devil managed to claim an entire kingdom and it shifted out of the material plane, leaving blasted ground behind that eventually recovered and became something else, but the lost kingdom continues to exist in its own plane of existence). Tilagos Island is another good example, come to think of it.
3: True Pocket-planes such as can be created by certain spells within the game (well, there used to be a 9th level spell that did this, but you could even consider the Rope Trick spell to create a temporary pocket plane of this sort). Powerful wizards who create multi-dimensional interiors to their cottages would be creating this sort of plane, but larger ones, and very old ones, could have some unusual features. The main difference between these and the planes from Category 2 is that these pocket planes would usually have been designed from the ground up (at least initially), and because of this, sometimes the "rules" (physics, etc.) can be very strange in these places.
Personaly I like the idea of the diety grouped planes, but then again that is just my personal opinon.
Actually the more I think about it, the more I like this idea too. Planes grouped per deity; hey makes sense with the "Domain" aspect of the game. Therefore, you could gain the overlap aspect as well and with overlap, their is tension and confrontation.
But, I want to make it clear that I do believe in the alignment mechanic as present in the OGL. The cosmology is deity based, but the deities still have their particular alignments.
Pretty cool concept to have an Evil based deity whose cosmology overlaps/shares one with a good aligned deity. Mwhahahaha...the possibilities. Or a chaotic deity sharing his/her cosmology with a lawfully aligned deity.
Demons and Devils (and their associated planes, the Bloodwar et. al.) are deeply entrenched in the D&D psyche, and so I understand the desire to keep the concepts of Hell and the Abyss. But let me explain to you one way I see this "blending" working in a new planar cosmology to better illustrate my point that the planes need not be alignment based or as fractured as they are currently represented.
There is a place of unmitigated evil. It is known alternatively as Hades, Hell, The Abyss, The Underworld and by other names depending on culture. One region of this place is regimented and held under strict control by the Devils. Here the various arch devils plot from their thrones. Some of these beings have established strongholds in the bottoms of vast chasms, others atop forested mountains, and others on smoking volcanic plains. These arch devils all work toward the common goal of destroying their enemies, the demons, even as they maneuver to better their own positions in the hierarchy. The Demons are analogous to the barbarians of ancient Rome. Led by charismatic, powerful demon lords, they wage an unending war on the organized society of devils, conquring and enslaving their own if it suits their purposes. They strike from their hidden fortresses in slime-filled pits, the hearts of volcanoes, islands in acidic seas and from the frozen wastelands. The vast armies of these two cultures, both augmented by other fiends (the yugalthos among others) that care for nothing but slaughter, war ceaselessly over a vast area in which neither side controls for long, vast plains of dust and shattered mountains filled with the detrius of war. All of this serves as a backdrop for the more isolated areas: the cave at the heart of a diseased jungle where the queen of all spiders lives, the frozen ice palace where a lord of slaughter destroys all that enter, and stinking plains that writhe with larval souls of primes that have lived corrupted lives. And far beyond the regimented fortresses of the devils' armies, beyond the...
Yeah, I can appreciate that. And it still leaves plenty of room for the Blood War should a DM (like me) want to continue with that bit of lore. Also, this plane could either be devoid of deities, or the demon/devil thing could just be a backdrop to what goes on between deific realms. In either case, an attempt to avoid the Great Wheel's situation (why don't CE and LE gods rule the Abyss and Hell, respectively?) should be made.
The only thing I kinda don't like about this particular incarnation is the Far Realm. I'm not a huge fan of it to begin with, and I don't think Pathfinder will be able to use it. I would rather see what Eberron did and make a whole plane of madness, dreams, and nightmares.
Personaly I like the idea of the diety grouped planes, but then again that is just my personal opinon.
It really depends on how you define gods, because if they require mortal worship, if they value that currency of soul-stuff in any tangible way, then it becomes an issue in their relationship to their worshippers and their relationship to the planes themselves. Do the planes vastly predate gods (like they do in D&D)? Are the gods a homogenous group, or do they share multiple origins and can varying groups of them be almost defined as entirely different creatures unified under a very mortal, very incorrect definition?
I would also point out that having planes that center around gods rather than alignments (and you can have both mind you...) does in my opinion cheapen alignments and cheapen mortality. It lowers the ability of mortals to change the status quo, and it throws the fiends, celestials, etc into secondary positions that makes a good number of long-standing D&D planar conventions awkward or untenable. I'd really, really prefer that Pathfinder avoid the cosmological awkwardness and handwaving that FR has endured in its current god-centric planar structure.
What I like about the alignment based planes is that they allow for clashes of ideology, different shades of the same ideology made flesh, and the existance of true alignment qualia immersed within a sea of shades of gray.
It'd be a cool exercise if Pathfinder incorporated both alignment based and deific based planes, with a murky enough prehistory and conflicting/clashing mythologies to make it an open question as to which is more important, who begat what and when, etc.
I love planar stuff. I adore it. *eats it up with a side of roast larvae*
|
I am big fan grouping planes in anyway but alignment.
I like the idea of planes grouped by some philosophical concept such as the seven deadly sins and seven saintly virtues. The lords of each plane can epitomize the nature of that plane. For illustration sake, Demogorgon would be a good choice for Wrath while Malcanthet can rule Lust. Asmodeus would make a good lord of Pride. Of course, new fiendish/celestial lords could/should be created to fill those roles. Alignment between creatures really doesn't matter at that point, "philosophical alignment" would be much more important.
This doesn't have to be limited to religious philosophy. The planes could based on some alteration to Plato's Theory of Forms where the real world is but a shadow of nearby or coexistent planes that overlap the material. These planes could be seen as the "True World" by material world residents.
I also favor a cosmology of remarkable simplicity, perhaps a simple dualist model. There are only two planes, the material and the spiritual. Outsiders live in the spiritual while all other creatures call the material home. This is a little difficult to pull off using standard D&D traditions since outsiders would most likely have to live in "territories" or "pockets" within the spiritual. But it might make for an interesting take on how the planes work.
While I enjoy the Great Wheel I think I firmly fall into the "something different" camp.
|
|
Personaly I like the idea of the diety grouped planes, but then again that is just my personal opinon.What I like about the alignment based planes is that they allow for clashes of ideology, different shades of the same ideology made flesh, and the existance of true alignment qualia immersed within a sea of shades of gray.
When considering deific versus alignment based planes, I too would lean toward alignment based over deific for the same reasons you do, but I would not want the "edges" to be so distinct. Must we really have an entire plane dedicated to the neutral view of evil as opposed to the chaotic or lawful views? Does it really matter if those with a more lawful version of goodness share the same realm with those of a more chaotic bent?
If possible I would like the planar boundaries to be laid out along good and evil lines because I see those as more important than law or chaos. If each plane were circular, then then central portion could be the highly regulated form of good/evil and as you went farther toward the edges, the plane became less and less structured as order broke down. Using this approach, we could have a plane for all that is good, one that is nothing but evil, and a third that represented true neutrality. These three disk-planes could be stacked atop on another (good on top, neutral then evil) like hotcakes.
At the centers of each the planes is where one would find the greatest order (law) and at the edges the greatest disorder (chaos). Places like WotC's Limbo could then exist around the edge of the neutral plane and WotC's Mechanus at its center without having seperate and distinct planes, layers and whatnot. The same would be true with the evil planes (per the example I gave above) and one could see how the good planes might also work in a similar fashion. And of course the Far Realm is out there at the edges of all planes, beyond Chaos, beyond good and evil, looking for weak points in the fabric of the multiverse.
I love planar stuff. I adore it. *eats it up with a side of roast larvae*
I am definitely with you on that - without so much roast larvae.
I am big fan grouping planes in anyway but alignment.
I like the idea of planes grouped by some philosophical concept such as the seven deadly sins and seven saintly virtues. The lords of each plane can epitomize the nature of that plane. For illustration sake, Demogorgon would be a good choice for Wrath while Malcanthet can rule Lust. Asmodeus would make a good lord of Pride. Of course, new fiendish/celestial lords could/should be created to fill those roles. Alignment between creatures really doesn't matter at that point, "philosophical alignment" would be much more important.
May I be the first to suggest Orcus for Gluttony/Necromancy.
|
|
Before time was time, and before places were places there was only the void. A purely lawful structure, with the principles of organization being nothing here, nothing there, nothing everywhere.
Into this void sprang the elemental force of magic. The stuff of pure chaose, not magic as in first level spells, but the fundamental concept of creation.
Everything coalesed in a single point, where magic first sprang into the void. In an eternal instant a reality was created, spreading from that point like an explosion, leaving in its wake the first of the sentient beings. So purely distiled was the magic in their "souls" they were the first gods.
The gods harnessed this force of magic, and began taming their new world. They created sculptures (read mountains trees rivers etc) and they bent magic to create yet more creatures. This generation would be the sub-divine powers. And the cycle repeated for a while.
Before the truly mortal races (humans, elves, dwarves, etc) came into being, their was a war among the gods. Que into of good and evil. The war was so intense, that in time, the very foundations of the universe were sundered. As a result, the one reality became dozens. The energy of the first gods was forcibly drawn from them, and each lead to a seperate stable reality, read plane.
The followers of each of the original divine were shunted to the new reality appropriate to them, and the sub-divine mentioned above got a promotion.
So each reality started with the same geography, but has been changing since. They are also each in exactly the same place, just transcendental to each other. Go read wikipedia articles about tesseracts and the TARDIS for a better explanation.
In certain places, the different realities can impinge on each other. It requires a geographically and philosophically similar location. So a fire on the plane of battle, and a battle on the plane of fire both occuring in the same location at the same time would thin the boundry between them. An unlikly event, almost as unlikly as a guy in a dark cloak going to a local tavern to hire a bunch of no name would-be adventurers.
The Prime plane could be a consequence of the shattered reality. A place where all the seventh dimensional corners of all the seperate realities touch each other, or the dumping ground where a lettle of all the other realms spills through. Or it could be the reality created by the fall of the divine "Prime" a neutral place where everything is welcome.
No matter how it is explained, prime would end up being the final battleground, where each of the ancient enemies tries to shift the balance and reunify the universe.
Which makes for a cool end-time mythology rather than a tearing down of eveything, the end of the world happens when some cosmic power puts the pieces back together.
I've never been comfortable with the "it's-all-connected" great wheel idea. I've also never liked the idea of the Blood War. It seems almost purposeless, in my experience. Additionally, I've always had difficulty trying to fit all the disparate ideas and pantheons into the great wheel system the way they're "supposed" to go. Doing so makes it very hard to tailor a campaign. If the players reason out that Thor lives next door to their favorite deity, what's to keep them from visiting him and possibly messing up your carefully designed cosmology?
IMO, I think the best idea would be to have deity-based planes that exist independently from each other. Perhaps individual planes might have a portal to a few other planes, but they wouldn't all be connected. I'd also allow for a plethora of independent planes. I would combine the astral and ethereal planes into a single "void" plane that is technically "nowhere" but exists in the same "space" as the prime material plane. I would also allow the inner planes to exist in the same "space" as the prime material plane. For those who like to travel between alternate prime material planes, I'd allow for possible (rare) portals to be found in the astral/ethereal/void plane or via powerful magic. I'd keep the Abyss, the Nine Hells, the Inner Planes, the Far Realm, and certain select other planes, but most of those on the great wheel could use a serious rework.
Of course, instituting these ideas could seriously mess up any OGL rules for the planes, if there are any. I think, though, that a wholly new cosmology is long overdue. And the folks at Paizo would be my first choice to do it.
|
|
Of course, instituting these ideas could seriously mess up any OGL rules for the planes, if there are any.
The SRD lists only the material, astral, ethereal, shadow, energy (positive and negative) and the four "core" elemental planes. The outer planes and all other planes, demiplanes and optional planes are not OGL'd.
I think, though, that a wholly new cosmology is long overdue. And the folks at Paizo would be my first choice to do it.
This is my main point. Given that the inner planes are somewhat fixed via the OGL (and I can live with them if I must despite my desire to crush them together, which I can always do IMC), the real point of this is that the outer planes really, really need some attention and since we can't use the Great Wheel something new has to be put in its place. It won't be possible to please everyone and perhaps something radical (ala Eberron) will not work, but the Great Wheel has outlived its time.
Oh Mighty Paizo Design Lords, hear our plea!
Exactly. There isn't going to be an Abyss. There will be no more Nine Hells (or Lords of the Nine or Dark Eight). No more Mount Celestia, no more Mechanus and no more Limbo. No more Far Realm (thank god). No more yugoloths. No more Blood War (*cries*). At least, not in official Pathfinder lore. What bastardized worlds each of us DMs create on our onw... that's a different matter entirely.
However, talking about it as if this is D&D II where we can use the same names and lore and so and so forth isn't worth a thing. It's going to be different. It's not going to be the Great Wheel.
To me, making purely alignment based planes will border on that Wheel too much. However, I like deifically-themed planes, which doesn't preclude alignments. Think of the Norse world tree. Now, take out Midgard because that's the Prime Material, but you're left with Valhalla and Niflhiem (sp?). These could be two separate planes, or two layers in the same plane.
Perhaps there's some central repository of ultimate goodness, and some pit of ultimate evil, and these have existed for eternity. When the gods came around, they created their own planes that span between good and evil like bridges, with the darker members of the pantheon creating segments stemming from hell and the altruistic gods creating realms branching from heaven, and joined in the middle by the fact that they're all from on pantheon.
I could see a planar "sphere," actually, where there is the pole of good and pole of evil, and all these round "bars" reach between them to form a globe-like structure. Each bar is a plane. In the center are the Material Planes and Elemental Planes and the space between it all, reaching to the very boundary of the ball, is the Astral. The Plane of Shadow could be like an axis that the whole thing sits and rotates on, striking through the heart of the Material Plane(s) and on out towards both ultimate evil and ultimate good, and twisted, half-seen versions of anywhere in the multiverse can be found on that "shaft" of shadows, and even access between other worlds and mutliverses.
This also allows for outsiders to have originated before gods, if so desired, in the ultimate good and evil poles. Gods could have arisen from them or another source. Or maybe the gods came first from these concentrated philosophical planes, and outsiders are their descendants. Or maybe there are stories both ways and it's up to us to choose which is true. Moreover, it allows for planes to be ruled purely by outsiders at the concentration points, and avoids the Great Wheel's paradox of LE deities not ruling Hell (and the chaotic inverse of this for the Abyss).
Maybe the "concentrated" planes of good and evil have no concern for law and chaos, but the heart of the good and evil regions of the "bridge" planes are more lawful and it moves towards chaos at the center where you transition philosophies from good to evil, like in the aforementioned disk planes but slightly altered.
I do like the thought that devils originated in some kind of Fall, so that could still be the case in this structure. They can still be at war with the demons; as has been said before, they're deeply opposed on philosophical grounds, and demons could see them as intruders and outsiders and beings just as worthy of destruction as everyone else. At the same time, without having the fact of the Blood War to overcome, deities themselves, or powerful planner beings, could sometimes "force" demons and devils to work together, either by intimidating them or appealing to their mutual greed, for united fronts of evil (which is almost unfathomable with the Great Wheel).
If Pathfinder's Asomdeus also fell from grace (again, I like this), I can see him being the Prince of Darkness, since he's trying to gain ultimate dominion over Hell, but the demons refuse to submit, preventing him from becoming the actual King of Darkness.
As for the gods themselves, I'm a big fan of assorted pantheons with their own origins and histories, who can almost be lumped together into "races" like the tanar'ri, batezu, eladrins, etc. Think Aesir and Vanir; Titans and Olympians.
Well, there's my general ramblings on what Pahtfinder could do with the planes. Obviously I'll give what they develop a good looking over, but I think I've just stumbled on the cosmology for my own homebrew, at least!
The Nine Hells and the Abyss can be used. James clarified as much. Sure, they can't have the exact same layers and whatnot, but I don't think we'll be seeing the demons and devils relocating in Pathfinder's world. Plus, James and Erik are such big fans of the D&D fiendish canon that I doubt they'd want to relocate them.
And for that, I'm very thankful.
What... no... why...? How could you, Paizo?!
I posted a massively long idea about the planes, and it registered as showing up! I thought that I was likely to get logged out because it took so long to type, so I hit "copy" and prepared to paste, but it showed up! Now it's gone... and I've hit "copy" in another thread and it's gone... gone into the void of cyberspace forever....
*wanders off wimpering*
|
|
B) They feel more like sci fi/comic book "alternate dimensions" than mythological planes of existance, at least to me.
Actually, that's how I feel about the Great Wheel setup. It's too artificial, you'd never see that sort of thing in any real world culture. I would really love to see a much more organic cosmology in a published setting.
Also, how about this for the Netherworld?When the multiverse was created, darkness was thrown into the farthest regions and sat as void. From this chaotic, formless space came demons. However, when Asmodeus fell (or whatever/whoever in Pathfinder) into the void, he created a land within it. At there very center, their rises a great spire of rock, which simply becomes Asmodeus's own thrown at the very pinnacle. Along the "slopes" of the mountain (a theoretically infinite amount of space with such a low grade it could be flat plains or even have ridges that form "sub mountains") is the domain of his conspirators who fell with him, along with the legions of the devils. Eventually, the land levels out into a flat plain, a gray, blasted land (Gray Wastes of Hades; yugoloths go here), at at the very edge, the land is clawed at by the chaotic void and the demons within. (The volcanic slopes of Gehenna become this area, descending down into the vast, varied landscapes of the Abyss, which truly is an Abyss trailing off towards some theoretical, inifinte void beneath them).
I like this idea. I think I would like to use this in my campaign.
|
The "Great" Wheel sucks. It is far too overthought and artificial.
Material Plane works, keep it. It is, essentially our universe. Millions of galaxies and star systems, allowing an infinite number of game worlds all in the Material Plane.
Elemental Planes are ok. I rather like them for some reason. Fire, Water, Earth, Air. I like the Negative Energy (Shadow) and Positive Energy (Light) Planes, the source of life (souls) and unlife (unsouls?). They make a great source for before life and after life.
The outer planes can be limited to one or two. The deities do not need seperate planes to organize them or whatever. The Greeks essentially had two planes, Hades (afterlife) and Olympus (most of the gods, regardless of alignment, lived there). I would restrict the outer planes to two. The angels, etc are from the "Good Plane" and the demons and devils etc from the "Evil Plane." Neutrals like the guardinals and such can exist in all of the planes.
It is far simpler. This way. Two transitve planes can be used if wanted, but not necessary. Are they necessary for existing spells? No, not really. A spell that says you go through the ethereal plane can ignore that descriptor and substitute another concept or idea across the board. I think we are all smart enough to deal with it.
Also I would make things a little more dynamic. The gods are the most powerful beings, but angels, demons, devils, inevitables, etc., do not work for them. They are their own beings and work toward their own agendas. They may ally with some and oppose others, but they are not servants. The titans could also be better utilized that way.
In my own game I use this exact premise. Material Plane, Elemental Planes, Energy Planes, Ethereal and Astral Planes, Celestia and Inferna. That is it. You die and go to the Shadow Plane. The death god once lived in Celestia, then Inferna and eventially settled upon the Shadow once he committed to his portfolio. The portfolios are not set in stone and have been changed over the millenia. The deities are "recent" arrivals, supplanting the Titans and Angels, Demons and Devils as the most powerful beings.
Now it's gone... and I've hit "copy" in another thread and it's gone... gone into the void of cyberspace forever....Well, *I* see it. Unless you've made ANOTHER long post since the "Exactly. There's isn't going to be an Abyss..." post?
No, that's it. You came back, my post! Oh, I'm so glad. It disappeared for a while, at least on my system.
I think there's a few slaad still hanging around in the system that WotC forgot to take with them.
You can always crib from the actual myth-sources themselves like D&D does, like Heaven and Hell, or as my Mythic Viking campaign goes, borrow from other mythologies like the Norse realms of the Yggdrassil (Niffelheim, Muspelheim, etc.). Forget the Astral, you can literally walk from one plane to the next (though you may need the right magic or rainbow bridge). And that deep, deep cave? Better know how to get back, because it could lead you to Hel's realm...
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
Well this little Vrock would love to wing his way across all the Heavens and Hells, but to some extent their needs to be some amount of seperation by alignment. Much as people rail against the arbitrary alignment system I can't envision D&D without it. Like Todd I'm a huge fan of the Planes and most of my campaigns involve the Great Wheel to some extent.
That being said, having the exact thaumaturgical diagrams of the Outer Planes for Pathfinder really aren't neccessary. The Planes are only as accessible as the DM allows them to be. Oh but Menzelbaum the Magnificent has just written Planeshift into his spellbook. Too bad you need that pesky tuning fork made of special materials and tuned to the correct Celestial/Beatific/Infernal/Abyssal harmonic. But what about Shadowalk? Bumble about in the dark all you like, it's merely a reflection of the Prime Material. But the Ethereal... Oh bunk, I can't see anything in this thrice damned Fog!
The realms of the Gods and Demons are things of myth and legend. Maybe the heavens do lie at the top of some mountaintop. Maybe heroes go to some mist shrouded island across the sea (or even beneath it!). I say the Planes should be quite mysterious in the world of Varisia. A simpler outlook ala Conan or Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser would suit me just fine.
I think there's a few slaad still hanging around in the system that WotC forgot to take with them.
* Grin * And I'm not going anywhere!
Actually, a new cosmology should be kept simple. Any DM that has to take their campaign to the outer planes isn't working hard enough. In other words, if you have to change the setting of the adventure, I think the DM has failed.
That said, there is a need for some kind of cosmology. I would suggest just two addition "planes" aside from the OGL planes. I think there should be an Abyss equivalent where the demons and devils live and "a place where the gods/dieties/immortals live" equivalent. Anything beyond that is unnecessary. Two good examples are the Mystara and Dragonlance cosmologies. They both are very simple and very effective.
Vague is better in this case.
--Ray.
Why not something similar to the Greek mythos, where the gods live and rule from the summit of Mount ___ , and the Underworld/Hell is literally underground? This way, planes are effectively eliminated in favor of superimposing a supernatural geography on the world. Myth and folktales around the world are littered with references to places that can only be accessed when certain conditions are met and don't have a physical location in the normal sense of the term. An element like that would make the setting far more unique and interesting than simply refurbishing the planes...
Not much of a planes guy, myself, but I have a suggestion. Keep it vague. One thing that gets to me about most D&D worlds is the unified pantheons and cosomlogies. Why? There are dozens of pantheons and associated cosmologies in the real world, why not in D&D?
But, how to do that? Looking back to how I remember the planes from Basic D&D, the outer planes were not limited by a wheel, tree or anything else. They were infinite in number and variable in size. Why not have it this way for the new setting? Sure, specific schools of arcane or religious thought can describe the planes as a tree, wheel, or cosmic bagel, but would not be able to prove themselves right or others wrong because of the infinite nature of the planes. Two PCs may not even be able to agree to which plane they are on, even though they can agree on all of the properties of the plane.
Ultimately, leave enough space for cultural disagreements, or for DMs to deifine their planar preferances.
With the Manual of the Planes long out of print (and never updated to 3.5 in the first place) we could really use a nice, definitive, in-print explanation of how planes work.
I'm guessing Paizo is, as yet, silent on this topic because they already have a plane plan in place (go iliteration!). But then the last time I guessed something a bomb-strapped wildebeest as set loose in a orphanage.
|
|
With the Manual of the Planes long out of print (and never updated to 3.5 in the first place) we could really use a nice, definitive, in-print explanation of how planes work.
Well, the 3.5 DMG did include a lot of the planar mechanics.
I'm guessing Paizo is, as yet, silent on this topic because they already have a plane plan in place (go iliteration!).
That would be alliteration, tsk! ;)
I'm guessing Paizo is, as yet, silent on this topic because they already have a plane plan in place (go iliteration!).That would be alliteration, tsk! ;)
I cuaght that mistake imediately and thot I edited it but to no avale. ;)
I vote for Cosmic Bagel.
|
The easiest way to have an alternative cosmology is to make it specific to your mythos. The Greek gods live on Olympus and all the dead either are raised to the status of gods, placed in the stars, or reside in Hades underground. The Norse have a cosmology of nine worlds, connected via Ygdrassil and littered with portals hidden in isolated spots all over. It wasn't until the Christian gnostics that Heaven and Hell became worlds apart from ours.
The Great Wheel serves one key purpose--to eliminate the need for a defining mythos. It allows the game designers to put Thor and Hercules in the same multiverse. It allows for Devils and Demons to operate in a cross-cultural system (Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Satan, etc. all being either 'the Devil' in a Christian sense or one of several devils in a gaming sense). If not the Wheel, then a system that will still allow the cross-cultural environment has to be included in any generic cosmology.
For my games, I tend to treat the vast majority of the Great Wheel as simply unreachable, hypothetical conjecture--much like alternate Prime Material planes. I used to employ the Wheel and a multiverse but I found that educating players on a mythos and getting them to really take on the world was hard. It was playing in Ravenloft, with its closed system, that turned my head the other way.
My advice to all--pick and choose what suits your game best and then close off the rest to your players. That way, your devils can be truly terrifying, freed of the threat of the Blood War. Your Gods can be truly awesome, free of the threat of attacks from Kronos God-Slayer. As DM, you are the one who should be defining the cosmos, not WOTC.
Of course, my halflings are still really hobbits as opposed to kender. ;)
I'm guessing Paizo is, as yet, silent on this topic because they already have a plane plan in place (go alliteration!)That is certainly a theory.
One can only imagine you what you folks and perhaps your favorite freelancers have cooked up. Can't wait to see.
Honestly, "the planes" are very far down on my list of priorities. Unless Paizo can pull of a project of "Planescape" coolness, I'd much rather see cool adventures set in the Material, with singular references to / development of planar sites.
I somehow imagine Paizo has every inch of that Varisia mapped out, and that they at this point have an exact feel for the tone/flavor of the adventures to be set there. I don't think it's an either or prospect when it comes to adventures and planes of existence. Eventually, during the process of crafting what is probably a billion page monstrosity, the heavens had to eventually be conjured and named and so they probably were.
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
|
For a considerable period, our efforts will be focused on the Material Plane of the new campaign setting. During this period, our assumption will be that most players will be using the Great Wheel cosmology we're all familiar with. We won't venture into the outer planes that much, and when we do we will most likely go to places like "Hell" that have obvious analogues in everyone's campaigns.
If this whole venture proves successful, we might get into something of Planescape proportions, but that's a long way off.
The D&D multiverse contains countless Material Plane worlds. For the time being, we're going to operate as if ours was one of them.
--Erik