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...in Dungeon#146 there is a guy who is actually complaining that an NPC is holding a heavy mace in an illustration and that in his stats. he is supposed to wield a light mace. If D&D players get pissed about these sorts of issues than how in the hell are they going to feel about losing 2 big parts of the game in one fell swoop? Idiots!...
The guy who wrote that letter is an habitual complainant. I would like to ask him to take an editor's job for a day and see how well he'd do; he is not, simply by reference of his letters to _Dungeon_ and Dragon_, a very beneficial example of D&D players, not to mention the fact that his points are easily refuted.
Americans have a socio-psychological propensity to simplify, and thereby often denigrate, the very reprehensible in order to make it more palatable--my great grandfather, who participated in the liberation of Dachau, would beat me to a pulp if I made an offhand statement as made earlier in this thread...
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Andrew, you got a .....little, ummm.... there is a bit..of....urrr...you seem to have a bit of brown odiferous matter smeared about thine nasal region. there. and there. and a bit over there. Here, have a mint, it's dignity flavored.
;P FH
Bwoun-noshing at a dishsance? Ahhh...wait...could you reach me that moist towelette? Yes, some damp tissue will do...yes, there...I think I got it all.
It's just that I am particularly fond of how open these boards are and would hate to see them locked up.
Would you like if the US population would be tagged as slaveholders or Indian killers in casual conversation or jokes time and again?
Sorry, I could not let this stand.
Stefan
Sorry I offended. That Nazi is an idiom of any behaviour that is remotely fascist is not my fault. I understand its meaning when I hear it and do not confuse it for the atrocities of World War 2. And God help us if we forget what happened.
You should check out Mel Brooks "The Producers". You really need to ask yourself if making cracks about Nazis is harmful to you as a german or to Jews. A lot of people, inlcuding Germans and Jews, understand that the humour both heals and helps people remember.
Peronally, my people are Latvian. I get my first name from a man who was draggged into the street and executed by the SS as part of the Nazi eugenics policies. He was in an asylum. I had another uncle who was a neurosurgeon for the German army. My family came to america in 1946, and these are the stories I learned from my grandfather.
As for concerns that this thread is out of control, I doubt any harm is done here. I think it's good, especially for the younger readers, to see the power of these words.
And by the way, because of slavery Americans from the south today ARE at times reflexively tagged as racists--I work with a really nice guy from Alabama who is pretty tired of getting labeled when he is abroad.
Nobody in here suggested that you are a Nazi, Stefan.
You game--we like you.
Nevertheless, lots of people are going to throw the word Nazi around in our lifetimes, probably because they lack the vocabulary to find a better word and they have just heard it so much.
Sorry,
Karlis
Look, I coined the nazi thing, so I'll start another topic where we can discuss what needs to be discussed about that topic. Sorry I said something that derailed this a bit, wasn't my intent.
As far as the original topic, there's not that much more for me to say. I'm pissed, disgusted, and all in all over it. Wizards will receive no more of my money, Paizo and Mulhavoc will. Far as I'm concerned Hasbro/Wizards can run D&D into the ground, deficate on it, and walk away, cuz I no longer care. There's always going to be people to game with, and I imagine there's going to be publishers writing OGL books for a while as well, so I'm good.
Creative Director
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Look, I coined the nazi thing, so I'll start another topic where we can discuss what needs to be discussed about that topic. Sorry I said something that derailed this a bit, wasn't my intent.
As far as the original topic, there's not that much more for me to say. I'm pissed, disgusted, and all in all over it. Wizards will receive no more of my money, Paizo and Mulhavoc will. Far as I'm concerned Hasbro/Wizards can run D&D into the ground, deficate on it, and walk away, cuz I no longer care. There's always going to be people to game with, and I imagine there's going to be publishers writing OGL books for a while as well, so I'm good.
As I mentioned on that other thread... even there I'm not interested in seeing this topic continue, really. These boards are for talking about games, in the end, and games are meant to be about fun. Let's keep it that way.
Wow, some people really have a lot of strong feelings about this issue. My bad emotions towards WotC went down on the second day and have long been overwhelmed by the excitement at Pathfinder and Varisia.
All-in-all, I think the RPG/D&D community is benefiting more from this change than anything else. I loved the mags and was a subscriber, but I believe that what we are getting instead could be an amazing blessing for the gaming community.
The excellent work done by Paizo on Dragon and Dungeon propelled them to the forefront of the RPGing scene and they are now using this recognition to kick start a brand new D&D/D20 world, with a bunch of adventures and modules coming out.
This is THE chance to get a new setting that is not too alien for many (Eberron), nor burdenned by a heavy history (Faerûn), nor held under water by a large corporation (Greyhawk). BUT is supported by an extremely professional company that meets deadlines and respect publication dates (unlike what happened to Dragonlance the last years) and has some of the best authors and designers working for them.
For me, Varisia is potentially all that I was missing in other settings together. This is the thing to get hyped up about.
Paizo now walks free of its obligations from WotC, whether is has freed itself or was sent away does not matter much for me, because I believe that this newly won freedom they have means that the guys who brought us Age of Worms and Savage Tide will now have free reins to fully flesh out their world and deliver the modules they want.
I am very very happy about all this.
Bocklin
James. I didn't think things would get so out of hand. Guess I should learn to keep my mouth shut and my fingers still. Sorry for causing problems.
Wow, some people really have a lot of strong feelings about this issue. My bad emotions towards WotC went down on the second day and have long been overwhelmed by the excitement at Pathfinder and Varisia.
All-in-all, I think the RPG/D&D community is benefiting more from this change than anything else. I loved the mags and was a subscriber, but I believe that what we are getting instead could be an amazing blessing for the gaming community.
The excellent work done by Paizo on Dragon and Dungeon propelled them to the forefront of the RPGing scene and they are now using this recognition to kick start a brand new D&D/D20 world, with a bunch of adventures and modules coming out.
This is THE chance to get a new setting that is not too alien for many (Eberron), nor burdenned by a heavy history (Faerûn), nor held under water by a large corporation (Greyhawk). BUT is supported by an extremely professional company that meets deadlines and respect publication dates (unlike what happened to Dragonlance the last years) and has some of the best authors and designers working for them.
For me, Varisia is potentially all that I was missing in other settings together. This is the thing to get hyped up about.
Paizo now walks free of its obligations from WotC, whether is has freed itself or was sent away does not matter much for me, because I believe that this newly won freedom they have means that the guys who brought us Age of Worms and Savage Tide will now have free reins to fully flesh out their world and deliver the modules they want.
I am very very happy about all this.
Bocklin
Well said, Bocklin. Well said.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I have bought alot of resource to upgrade my gaming library to have
massive D20 v3.5 stuff to redo aka rework/rewrite/upgrade my long
standing campaign realm, but I tell you after spend close to +2,000
US bucks on it all, I have also bought for my 11 yr old son all of
the Hero's system version 5 books for him on Champions, Dark Champions,
Fantasy Hero, Star Hero, and the new era 1248 Traveller Hero. He likes
the Hero's system alot and I have collected much of that myself over
the years myself. I am seriously considerring droping the D20 system
and moving on to Hero's system. Really it is a better system.Penn
Your comment seems familiar...almost as if you've posted some variation of it on not less than 5 different threads, most of which have been dormant for nearly a month.
Welcome to the boards, good to have you, but could you knock if off already with posting the same thing on every dead thread you can find. There are probably about 50+ threads about the death of Dragon/Dungeon, the evil of WotC, and 4e. Find one, post something relevant, cathartic, and coherent, and, assuming we're not sick of the subject, we might post back. At the very least, you won't get a b~*$$y response like this one.
Sebastian, you should add a vitriolic tongue lash attack to the Special Abilities section of your bio. Hmmm. What would the damage type be? Vile? Rage enducing? Humiliating? How about all of them.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian, you should add a vitriolic tongue lash attack to the Special Abilities section of your bio. Hmmm. What would the damage type be? Vile? Rage enducing? Humiliating? How about all of them.
** spoiler omitted **
I like that suggestion, so as inspired by you, Steve, I was going to do so, but I can't seem to change my profile. This is what I wrote up:
Vitriolic Tongue Lash (Ex): Three times per thread page, Sebastian can make an acidic comment calling into question a poster's intelligence, ethics, or beliefs. This attack inflicts 2d6 vile damage. In addition, the target of the attack must make a Will save (DC 35) or enter a rage, attacking Sebastian for 2d4 posts.
No Soul (Ex): Having traded his soul for the dark arts of law, Sebastian is immune to all attacks that call upon his sense of decency, kindness, or human warmth.
I hate everyone. Don't take it personally.
I paid $35 for Demonweb Pits because (i) Wolfgang wrote it and it's dang good, and (ii) unless I get robbed or my house burns down I have it in my possession.
Man, if I ever got robbed and the thieves stole my D&D stuff I'd be pissed not so much for the robbery but that they didn't just ask me to play and bring my books to use.
OnTopic: I'm pretty sure I posted it before but even after the initial Paizo/WotC disbanding dust has settled I still stand by my decision to NOT subscribe to whatever electronic "periodicals" WotC'll be offering. I'm not interested in reading full magazines/books/etc on my computer, especially if it's not something I can download, save, print etc. I'm with F2K (and others, I'm sure) that I want printed material that can be read and reread as long as I've eyes in my head and an empty spot on my bookshelf.
- Chris Shadowens
Sorry guys but I posted to threads I read and felt i wanted to have my
own say as is my right and yours as well. yes I have never bothered to
post before here until today, but this situation really pissed me off!
I wanted to vent so I did!
Penn
Sebastian, you should add a vitriolic tongue lash attack to the Special Abilities section of your bio. Hmmm. What would the damage type be? Vile? Rage enducing? Humiliating? How about all of them.
** spoiler omitted **I like that suggestion, so as inspired by you, Steve, I was going to do so, but I can't seem to change my profile. This is what I wrote up:
Vitriolic Tongue Lash (Ex): Three times per thread page, Sebastian can make an acidic comment calling into question a poster's intelligence, ethics, or beliefs. This attack inflicts 2d6 vile damage. In addition, the target of the attack must make a Will save (DC 35) or enter a rage, attacking Sebastian for 2d4 posts.
No Soul (Ex): Having traded his soul for the dark arts of law, Sebastian is immune to all attacks that call upon his sense of decency, kindness, or human warmth.
I hate everyone. Don't take it personally.
Oh, that's good stuff. That's wierd that you can't update your profile though. When I open up mine I have a little clickable text area to the top right (kinda) of the page that says Edit My Profile. You don't have that?
Sorry guys but I posted to threads I read and felt i wanted to have my
own say as is my right and yours as well. yes I have never bothered to
post before here until today, but this situation really pissed me off!
I wanted to vent so I did!Penn
Don't worry about it, Penn. Sebastian (and many others of us here) take their ribbing very seriously and to a whole new level. Try not to take it personally and welcome to the boards. This is a pretty good community as forums go.
What Steve said. Welcome to the boards, Penn. Good to see another ol' time gamer.
Thank you guys, and I really didn't take a offense at what was
said, as it was true that I said alot of the same on a number of
threads BUT I am still pissed on a number of levels.
Penn
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Side question: a Mythweavers web site was mentioned a while back ... could someone tell me what the actual web URl is for that site? I've been looking for a good D&D Play by Post location for a LOOOONG time! Is this one really good? Any other good Play by Post sites out there (D&D or not)?
Ok, back on topic ... thanks!
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There's a decent sized interview with Scott Rouse, Bill Slavicsek, and Chris Perkins about the move at http://www.enworld.org/!
Okay, sorry to have missed the boat here, but I found this thread now a month after it had started, and I cannot for the life of me access the frustratingly complex EnWorld website to actually find the interview. Can someone please post a link or even just the address of the interview's location, so that I can join the 21st century and read what sounds like it'll be the most depressing news since the annoucement of the dissolution of these two magazines? I would...appreciate it, I guess, though with the grim prospects of what this interview will likely contain, I don't know if "appreciate" is really the right word. Thanks, kids.
just to summarize: WotC has succumbed to the darkside long ago. Selling TSR to Hasbro was the worst move in DnD history. But then ending the Paizo licence contract must be a close second...
No atonement for these fools. They will have to play their own adventures over and over again in the 666th layer of the Abyss for eternity.
just to summarize: WotC has succumbed to the darkside long ago. Selling TSR to Hasbro was the worst move in DnD history. But then ending the Paizo licence contract must be a close second...
No atonement for these fools. They will have to play their own adventures over and over again in the 666th layer of the Abyss for eternity.
Some of them still have their souls, I reckon.
Selling TSR to Hasbro was the worst move in DnD history.
Really?
Selling TSR to Hasbro was the worst move in DnD history.Really?
Yeah, I agree, "really"?
I've been playing since the good ole days of the blue book, and I can honestly say that I've never had so much D&D information at my finger-tips in my life. All thanks to 3rd Ed and OGL.
Selling TSR to Hasbro was the best move in DnD history, IMHO.
Greg
Are folks confusing WotC buying out TSR with Hasbro buying out WotC? The former happened before the latter.
Possibly, but I think the difference is academic. From what I've read on various boards (sorry, no link) the WotC arm is pretty much ignored by Hasbro. All they look at is the bottom line. They let WotC do what they want as long as they are profitable. As far as I can tell, WotC is pretty much wholly responsible for the current state of D&D - good or bad, YMMV.
Greg
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Are folks confusing WotC buying out TSR with Hasbro buying out WotC? The former happened before the latter.
Okay, to repeat, can someone please post a link to the current site containing the interview? I didn't read it when it came out, and if you go to the original cited web address it just shows the past few days' worth of news articles. Please, pretty please, post a link?
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6, Contributor
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Are folks confusing WotC buying out TSR with Hasbro buying out WotC? The former happened before the latter.Possibly, but I think the difference is academic. From what I've read on various boards (sorry, no link) the WotC arm is pretty much ignored by Hasbro. All they look at is the bottom line. They let WotC do what they want as long as they are profitable. As far as I can tell, WotC is pretty much wholly responsible for the current state of D&D - good or bad, YMMV.
Greg
Seems to me the "rotating brand managers" problem came about after most of the original WotC managers were gone. This is what I associate with the worst of current WotC policy, so I'd link that to Hasbro.
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Seems to me the "rotating brand managers" problem came about after most of the original WotC managers were gone. This is what I associate with the worst of current WotC policy, so I'd link that to Hasbro.Are folks confusing WotC buying out TSR with Hasbro buying out WotC? The former happened before the latter.Possibly, but I think the difference is academic. From what I've read on various boards (sorry, no link) the WotC arm is pretty much ignored by Hasbro. All they look at is the bottom line. They let WotC do what they want as long as they are profitable. As far as I can tell, WotC is pretty much wholly responsible for the current state of D&D - good or bad, YMMV.
Greg
They are advertising for a D&D brand manager right now...
Okay, to repeat, can someone please post a link to the current site containing the interview?
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Okay, to repeat, can someone please post a link to the current site containing the interview?http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-194684.html
Thank you so very much, friend. I am forever in your debt. :)
Once again I seem to be the last person to know about this kind of stuff, so forgive my late reply. (I swear, demons and angels could start warring in my backyard at dawn and I wouldn't notice the commotion until some time after noon.)
Well, for me the trouble with this article began fairly early on.
"First of all, were you surprised by the amount of emotion pouring out from fans in the last few days? What was the expected reaction from the online community?
Scott: No, we weren’t surprised by the reaction. We understand the emotions rippling through the community. In fact, there are a lot of people here at WotC that share those same emotions."
I nearly broke out in hysterical laughter at that one. I know I shouldn't have, because the folks at Wizards are (most likely) just people doing their jobs. Apparently my opinion of WotC has been so lowered, though, that the thought of them having or comprehending human feelings almost made me laugh. I know that might not say much for me, but I'd like to think that it also says something about how disconnected from the fanbase WotC can appear.
"What can an online platform offer to the customer that a magazine cannot?
Chris: We have a lot of ideas that we’re happy with, but let me turn the question around. What would you hope for? What would make this exciting and useful for you? Another question for the community: How much of the magazine content were you able to use in your campaign? How much work did you have to do to accomplish that? If this new incarnation of the magazines could encompass anything you could want, what would that be?"
... Total... *bleep*ing... rothe*bleep*.
You want to know what I hope for? I hope for you to snap the *bleep* out of your delusions and give me back my beloved printed magazine! I also hope every morning that I'll wake up in bed next to Fierna and Malcanthet, so unless you bring back the magazine or hook me up with some fiendish babes who'll have me smiling while they rip my soul asunder, kindly go and shut-up.
"What is the likelihood of seeing new online material being compiled in hardcopy format - perhaps an annual magazine, book or compendium?
Bill: Sounds like a great idea! In fact, it’s been part of our plans all along."
Oh for the love of... I'm not even going to try to spin that into a joke. It'd be redundant.
That article left such a foul taste in my mouth, I had to brush my teeth after reading it.
I was bitter before, but now I look at D&D in Wizards' hands and it seems about as safe there as a vase in a room full of shotgun-totin' monkeys. Unless Hell freezes over and Wizards produces a third Fiendish Codex detailing the yugoloths, I'll never have any respect for them again.
Yeah, that was perhaps the most content-free interview ever done.
It's quite insulting that WotC would present the interview as a set of informative responses -- we'd have to be imbeciles to believe that.
Ahhhhhh, nothing like fresh nerd-rage in the early evening.
Get a freaking grip people. It's just a couple of magazines going online. In case you hadn't noticed the RPG market is drying up faster than a puddle in the Sahara. I'm amazed they are even going to bother with online versions of the mags but I suspect the digital initiative will be quite a bit different than the mags were.
Ahhhhhh, nothing like fresh nerd-rage in the early evening.
Get a freaking grip people. It's just a couple of magazines going online.
...
You obviously don't get it, so I'm not going to try and explain how wrong you are. It's useless to try and describe a sunset to a person who has never been able to see.
Ahhhhhh, nothing like fresh nerd-rage in the early evening.
Get a freaking grip people. It's just a couple of magazines going online. In case you hadn't noticed the RPG market is drying up faster than a puddle in the Sahara. I'm amazed they are even going to bother with online versions of the mags but I suspect the digital initiative will be quite a bit different than the mags were.
Why are you even on here? You must be a Wizards spy. Have you even read the magazines? Do you know what Dungeons & Dragons is? What a d-bag...
Ahhhhhh, nothing like fresh nerd-rage in the early evening... Get a freaking grip people...
I don't think this is fair. Dungeon and Dragon are beloved magazines for many, and a useful part of our gaming experience. Paizo has done a first-rate job with them.
WotC has arguably done nothing to inspire (and a good deal to destroy) confidence in this decision. To add insult to injury, they put forward this pathetic sham of an interview, presumably thinking we're dumb enough to believe questions and concerns are being were addressed in a meaningful way. In fact, the 'interview' indicates that WotC doesn't yet have a plan to keep the magazines going, even in online form.
BTW, the interview has gone a long way into getting my panties in such a wad. Being treated like an idiot tends to anger me -- go figure
While the language might be a little strong at times, I think WotC has provoked many of the responses we're seeing. Go ridicule them.
Regards,
Jack
Ahhhhhh, nothing like fresh nerd-rage in the early evening... Get a freaking grip people...I don't think this is fair.
I would agree with this (that the comment isn't fair).
Dungeon and Dragon are beloved magazines for many, and a useful part of our gaming experience. Paizo has done a first-rate job with them.
Absolutely about the "Paizo" part (I'm a Dungeon subscriber, btw, or rather, was :) ), although the use of the term "many" is vague enough that it can't be disputed. One question I would really like to see answered, is how many magazines were sold per month, versus how many unique visitors to the WotC D&D site there are per month. That could go a long way to explaining their motivations.
WotC has arguably done nothing to inspire (and a good deal to destroy) confidence in this decision.
I really think this falls into the realm of "eye of the beholder". There are some of us (yeah, we exist) who are actually interested in what Wizard's might have to offer. For example, it's been many years (probably 15 to 20) since I've been a subscriber to Dragon. I find that these days when I pick up a copy off the news stand, I'm lucky if I'm going to be interested in 50% of what's in there. (I will use much less, but at least I'll be interested in half.)
So for me, the idea of putting the Dragon content on-line is actually something that makes me want to look twice. If I can pay a reasonable subscription price for the opportunity to get adventures and "useful" information, then I'm all for it. But then, I seem to be one of those few who doesn't mind going on-line for information. In fact, I actually prefer it, but that may be due to the fact that I live about 30 minutes from the nearest gaming store that even stocked Dungeon or Dragon.
To add insult to injury, they put forward this pathetic sham of an interview, presumably thinking we're dumb enough to believe questions and concerns are being were addressed in a meaningful way. In fact, the 'interview' indicates that WotC doesn't yet have a plan to keep the magazines going, even in online form.
Again, eye of the beholder. I actually thought the interview showed the exact opposite. That while they do seem to have a skeleton of a plan (which is fine at this point - it is still several months away) they are soliciting the community for inputs into what they'd like to see. Isn't that a good thing?
BTW, the interview has gone a long way into getting my panties in such a wad. Being treated like an idiot tends to anger me -- go figure
While the language might be a little strong at times, I think WotC has provoked many of the responses we're seeing. Go ridicule them.
And that's your right. Although, as said earlier, they are human beings just trying to do their job and bring home enough money to make their lives enjoyable. I think we should cut them a little slack. They are not the evil empire existing to make your life miserable. They are just trying out something new. Yeah, they are pissing off a lot of people in the process, but I really, seriously, doubt that they are doing it intentionally.
If this fails, it fails. But it their jobs, not ours.
Greg
P.S. No, I'm not a WotC plant. As far as I know, they haven't opened an office in suburban Montreal.
Why are you even on here? You must be a Wizards spy. Have you even read the magazines? Do you know what Dungeons & Dragons is? What a d-bag...
Awww, now you've gone and blown my cover! Darn!
/been playing D&D since before you were born
//been reading Dragon since the teen's Dungeon since it started
///d-bag indeed
You obviously don't get it, so I'm not going to try and explain how wrong you are. It's useless to try and describe a sunset to a person who has never been able to see.
You guys really slay me. I can't buy this kind of comedy.
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Why are you even on here? You must be a Wizards spy. Have you even read the magazines? Do you know what Dungeons & Dragons is? What a d-bag...Awww, now you've gone and blown my cover! Darn!
/been playing D&D since before you were born
//been reading Dragon since the teen's Dungeon since it started
///d-bag indeed
Yeah, you sound real mature...
Just read someone's last 20 posts and something does seem a little fishy.
Quit yer whinin ladies.
Pardon?
You obviously don't get it, so I'm not going to try and explain how wrong you are. It's useless to try and describe a sunset to a person who has never been able to see.You guys really slay me. I can't buy this kind of comedy.
I am indeed funny, but not as funny as your unwarranted sense of superiority.
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I am indeed funny, but not as funny as your unwarranted sense of superiority.
Bluntly, get over yourself. You and others overreacted to a fairly mild comment. And this debate is old, in so may ways. If you can't handle being called a geek or nerd without blowing your top, I suggest you try and find a different hobby - it goes with the territory.
Don't assume people don't "get it" just because we disagree with you. We all "get it" - we wouldn't be on these boards if we didn't care about D&D, Dungeon and Dragon. Some of us, however, take a reasonably pragmatic view that nothing lasts for ever, the future holds opportunites as well as obstacles, and you need to accept things as they are rather than rail at the world because it isn't as you would like it to be. It's called life experience.
Am I being patronising? Absolutely.