I'm going to take the positive spin and tell you what I did like in that interview. Though they didn't give much details about their plans, I was impressed with the amount of respect they showed Paizo. Knowing that they would probably get some really negative backlash, they went ahead and made the announcement the way they did to allow Paizo to take care of their customers and get the ball rolling on their new product lines. That could have gone so much differently. I'm somewhat mollified by that. At this point, I'm still very disappointed by the planned discontinuation of Dungeon and Dragon as printed material. But from what WotC has said about their plans I'm resigned to "wait and see". That's about all I can do.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm going to take the positive spin and tell you what I did like in that interview. Though they didn't give much details about their plans, I was impressed with the amount of respect they showed Paizo. Knowing that they would probably get some really negative backlash, they went ahead and made the announcement the way they did to allow Paizo to take care of their customers and get the ball rolling on their new product lines. That could have gone so much differently. I'm somewhat mollified by that. At this point, I'm still very disappointed by the planned discontinuation of Dungeon and Dragon as printed material. But from what WotC has said about their plans I'm resigned to "wait and see". That's about all I can do.
Different strokes I guess. I read it as a sly blameshifting towards Paizo. "We totally would've told you what we're doing, but it's just so awsome and we didn't want to steal Paizo's thunder, so we're not going to really say anything." "The timing of this was driven by Paizo, if only we had been able to determine the timing, you wouldn't be so mad right now."
Hmmm. Yeah, I guess you could see it that way, too. But I got the impression that that wasn't intended.
Edit: Before anyone begins quoting me and ranting, I'm not defending WotC, just finding something positive from that interview.
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Hmmm. Yeah, I guess you could see it that way, too. But I got the impression that that wasn't intended.
Edit: Before anyone begins quoting me and ranting, I'm not defending WotC, just finding something positive from that interview.
I'm gonna quote you Steve!!! J/k not really. The only thing I wanted to comment about your observation is, well of course they are gonna be nice to Paizo in the interview for PR reasons (and not pi**ing off more people) AND in case they screw it all up and come crawling back to Paizo for help.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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For the record, Sebastian, I'm not "standing by WotC," I'm simply not going to boycott them because they publish the 'core' material for my favorite hobby (my only hobby, really...) and I have yet to be unhappy with the products they've produced (okay, well, we'll just pretend Bo9S never happened). It sounds to me like typical corporate spin in this interview and I don't like it. I think it shows a lack of integrity and, most of all, an inability to think ahead. This is a case of WotC shooting first and asking questions later. In this case, the "shooting" was pulling the license. Now that they've done that, the corporate people are going "Okay......... now what?"
This smacks of poor planning on their part and I can tell you that I most certainly won't be interested in their 'online initiative' because I don't use anything electronic in my games (well, I use a printer to make character sheets, but that's it). I never subscribed to Dungeon or Dragon before and I don't plan to start now. Hell, the only reason I'm subscribing to Pathfinder now is to support Paizo in the wake of this whole fiasco.
So no, I won't talk you off the ledge. I'm right there with you. Maybe I'll jump too. I like WotC's products, not their business model.
I'm going to take the positive spin and tell you what I did like in that interview. Though they didn't give much details about their plans, I was impressed with the amount of respect they showed Paizo...
I agree -- they have shown Paizo every bit of respect and consideration they could.
And, since I'm briefly feeling magnanimous toward WotC, it occurs to me that providing magazine support for D&D is difficult. Evidently a fraction of 1% of D&D players read Dragon and/or Dragon; certainly those numbers promise to skyrocket with an online magazine. And that's really not a lot of your customer base that you'd be alienating (though I think there's more to it than these simple numbers).
There's still a BIG question of how WotC's quality (which is at times spotty) will measure up to Paizo's proven record.
Jack
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Well, after readinf the interview I got the feeling WotC have practically not really a plan what to do, but are searching messageboards to steal ideas and check what other people would do. That's a recurring question in that interview:"What would you do, what would you like?"
Damn, tell us, or leave us alone!!!
What do those guys think we are - automatons without brains?! With such a tremendous descission which they knew would have a big Impact on the community, the OWED us to show with what "my beloved magazines" will be replaced!!!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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In other news, they've finally got a WotC person over posting on the ENWorld Boards. That's definitely an improvement over what has been happening.Do you have a link to that Sebastian?
It's the link right off the main ENWorld page, a WotC pops up starting halfway down page 6. Here is a link (I'll leave it for Fakey to do the magical link stuff).
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=194729&page=6&pp=40
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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And, since I'm briefly feeling magnanimous toward WotC, it occurs to me that providing magazine support for D&D is difficult. Evidently a fraction of 1% of D&D players read Dragon and/or Dragon; certainly those numbers promise to skyrocket with an online magazine. And that's really not a lot of your customer base that you'd be alienating (though I think there's more to it than these simple numbers).
Jack
While a FREE web site could have more subscribers than the magazines, I'll be shocked if a for-pay site does. The boards at WotC, which are free, have less subscribers than the magazine. Kind of a telling statistic for what happens to your numbers when you require registration, let alone signing up.
Also, while the magazines are quite likely a fraction of a percent of occasional D&D players, I don't for a second think they are of active D&D players (people who actually play more than once in a blue moon). My guy says there aren't more than a million active players. 40,000ish (Dungeon) would be 1% of 4 million, for comparison. To legitmately claim "fraction of a percent" you'd be talking 8 million D&D players - more than the most generous estimate of even occasional players I've seen.
Scott: More than a year ago, after much discussion, WotC and Paizo mutually agreed to let the contract expire...
I love how WotC is trying to place blame on Paizo - like Paizo mutually agreed to let their magazines go. Sure they are trying to be polite and cover their own @$$. Come on WotC.
And I love this:
Margaret Weis specifically announced that "Wizards chose not to renew our license; WotC says that "nothing has been decided and that negotiations are ongoing". So what does that mean?
Hmmm.
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Well, I read the interview, and have to agree that it was very disappointing. The answers were evasive, and the attitude coming through was one of desperate whining. Just from that short batch of non-answers, I'm liking this whole move less and less.
I've been downloading free stuff from WotCs website for several years now. It wasn't always the greatest stuff, but I've got several CDs full of information: maps, adventures, web enhancements, etc. The idea that they are going to reduce this content, and that the stuff we'd be paying for can't be downloaded, in my opinion makes the entire thing worthless.
The one positive thing that I think resulted from the "interview" was that someone on this thread earlier provided us with a new name for those slimy corporate bastards - Weasels of the Coast. Priceless! DmRrostarr, great job!
The boards at WotC, which are free, have less subscribers than the magazine.
Are you sure about that? Looking at the stats available on main page I see:
Members: 226,638, Active Members: 44,067
Active Member, I believe, is anybody who has logged in in the past 3 months.
I don't think either magazine has that many subscribers.
The boards at WotC, which are free, have less subscribers than the magazine.Are you sure about that? Looking at the stats available on main page I see:
Members: 226,638, Active Members: 44,067Active Member, I believe, is anybody who has logged in in the past 3 months.
I don't think either magazine has that many subscribers.
I'm at work, so I don't have time to check right now... but doesn't the stats on the WoTC boards encompass every user? Not just the D&D players I mean everyone who logs on doesn't necessarily play DnD, or even be looking at DnD content. They might be looking at Magic, or Pokemon, or SW or something else
I mean, I'd show as an active user... even if all I did was look at the CO boards or a preview of a release.
*And they only time I've actually used the WoTC boards in the last year was to tell that what BS this whole debacle was.
So I guess I'm an "Active User" since I logged in last week ;-)
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Are you sure about that? Looking at the stats available on main page I see:Members: 226,638, Active Members: 44,067Active Member, I believe, is anybody who has logged in in the past 3 months.
I don't think either magazine has that many subscribers.
Well, Dragon does have higher circulation than that, Dungeon somewhat less, so combined, definitely more.
From an Erik Mona post, 7/25/2005, Dragon at that time had a paid circulation of 62,725. Dungeon, from a recent James Jacob post, was 32,391. You can dig these numbers out of the yearly statements of ownerships in the magazines themselves. So yeah, the free board is getting thumped by the magazines. And yes, I'm only counting active members on a free registration site :) Also, that counts all forums, including Magic the Gathering, so that makes the numbers even grimmer.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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From an Erik Mona post, 7/25/2005, Dragon at that time had a paid circulation of 62,725. Dungeon, from a recent James Jacob post, was 32,391. You can dig these numbers out of the yearly statements of ownerships in the magazines themselves. So yeah, the free board is getting thumped by the magazines. And yes, I'm only counting active members on a free registration site :) Also, that counts all forums, including Magic the Gathering, so that makes the numbers even grimmer.
Those circulation numbers include a substantial number of issues delivered to newstands that are eventually destroyed. I believe in the same thread and/or post, Erik/James mention the fact that 1/3 or so of all Dragon/Dungeon issues suffer such a fate.
Paid circulation doesn't equal subscribers, though.
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Well, I read the interview, and have to agree that it was very disappointing. The answers were evasive, and the attitude coming through was one of desperate whining. Just from that short batch of non-answers, I'm liking this whole move less and less.
I've been downloading free stuff from WotCs website for several years now. It wasn't always the greatest stuff, but I've got several CDs full of information: maps, adventures, web enhancements, etc. The idea that they are going to reduce this content, and that the stuff we'd be paying for can't be downloaded, in my opinion makes the entire thing worthless.
The one positive thing that I think resulted from the "interview" was that someone on this thread earlier provided us with a new name for those slimy corporate bastards - Weasels of the Coast. Priceless! DmRrostarr, great job!
NO problem Aberzombie...I'm always here to entertain...dont forget to tip your waiters
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Those circulation numbers include a substantial number of issues delivered to newstands that are eventually destroyed. I believe in the same thread and/or post, Erik/James mention the fact that 1/3 or so of all Dragon/Dungeon issues suffer such a fate.
Well, in that case, we could get into the number of readers per paid issue. Or the number of people who read the boards as a guest, for that matter. Or the difference between buying an issue (money) and logging into a board one :)
43,000 active users on a free board that includes more than just D&D is not impressive no matter how you slice it - and this all came about because of claims that an insignificant number of gamers read Dragon.
I find nazis of the coast to be more acurate than weasles of the coast, as I love weasles, ferrets, and similar animals.
The main question I have, and the question that was never addressed, was this: why can't a Paizo print product AND a WOTC net product peacefully coexist? If the internet can theoretically reach so many more people, what threat to that cash flow is a print magazine or two?
I don't see how the two formats are mutually exclusive.
The answer is Money.
How do you mean?
I have seen several people say on these and other message boards that WotC probably took the license back because Dragon and Dungeon were costing them too much money. That makes absolutely no sense what-so-ever.
By taking the Dragon and Dungeon licenses back WotC stands to loose money... they were not paying for the overhead of the magazines in the first place, AFAIK, that was on Paizo. So all they are doing is loosing out on the licensing fee that Paizo paid.
The only way it makes sense in any sort of monetary way is if they say Dragon and Dungeon as direct competition to their "on-line" content, and hope that by taking away the print magazines they can force the consumer to switch to their on-line drivel... if that is their intention I do not think it will work as well as they hope that it will.
I think this action by WotC makes more sense in a larger context (with them pulling back other licenses as well) if they are looking to do something with the entire brand in the near (or at least foreseeable) future. Whether that be sell it off, start a big 4e push, or to do something else with it will have to be told with time.
I find nazis of the coast to be more acurate than weasles of the coast, as I love weasles, ferrets, and similar animals.
I don't think that comparing WotC to nazis is very appropriate at all. Whether you intend to or not, by doing so you compare the loss of Dungeon and Dragon in some way to the Holocaust, which is very uncool.
Dang, they neatly dodged the topic of whether dead campaign settings will see any support.
I think they said they don't want to "fracture" their customer base. I take this to mean that they see supporting too many campaign worlds as bad for business... ie no Greyhawk.
Of course I think this is nuts, because it assumes that people do not know what they want, and will buy whatever WotC gives them.
That's fine with me cuz it opens the doors for guys like Monte Cook and our buddies here at Paizo.
One more thing I haven't seen mentioned, but there are so many threads now who knows...
To oversimplify things, WotC would not pull the Dragon and Dungeon licenses cuz they are marginally profitable, they are more likely to pull it if they see it as potentially very profitable and want the money themselves.
Does that make sense?
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Dang, they neatly dodged the topic of whether dead campaign settings will see any support.I think they said they don't want to "fracture" their customer base. I take this to mean that they see supporting too many campaign worlds as bad for business... ie no Greyhawk.
Of course I think this is nuts, because it assumes that people do not know what they want, and will buy whatever WotC gives them.
This reminded me of a post from enworld
something to the effect of...this guy walks into an icecream shop and asks for vanilla and chocolate icecream, whereupon the guy behind the counter says, "I'm sorry; those two flavors have been discontinued."
So the guy asks what flavors they have, and the guy behind the counter says, "well,...it'll be something GREAT, but I can't tell you what it is. I'm interested in finding out WHAT FLAVORS of icecream YOU WANT!!!"
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Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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I don't think that comparing WotC to nazis is very appropriate at all. Whether you intend to or not, by doing so you compare the loss of Dungeon and Dragon in some way to the Holocaust, which is very uncool.
Well, as I have put it before, the only person who can control how offended you are by something is you.
I find nazis of the coast to be more acurate than weasles of the coast, as I love weasles, ferrets, and similar animals.I don't think that comparing WotC to nazis is very appropriate at all. Whether you intend to or not, by doing so you compare the loss of Dungeon and Dragon in some way to the Holocaust, which is very uncool.
Whether you like it or not, the notoriety of the Nazis is exploited by English speakers everywhere: it is part of the modern idiom. I don't think Seinfeld was worried about offending people when he called the mean soup guy the soup Nazi.
But we'll all try to be more politically correct so we don't make any real Nazis feel bad about being compared to dumb capitalist dorks.
One more thing I haven't seen mentioned, but there are so many threads now who knows...
To oversimplify things, WotC would not pull the Dragon and Dungeon licenses cuz they are marginally profitable, they are more likely to pull it if they see it as potentially very profitable and want the money themselves.
Does that make sense?
That's it I'm not posting stuff any more, this is just too f+!*ing repetitive.
I'll stick to five word game thanks.
We have not come up with a solution for “portability” of content ...... We do not have a DRM solution yet but have a range of options available to us.
I don't even understand what these sentences mean. Hence my preference for magazines in the mail. Oh well.
I will not pay $X a month to keep my half-elf Favored Soul online. He lives on a piece of paper I printed from a link found on these forums!
Besides, you can do it for free at Lilith's DM Tools site, or at Mythweavers (and you can run play by post with all kinds of great tools there), so why would you pay to do it at Wizards, which has about the clunkiest website in gaming.
Members: 226,638, Active Members: 44,067Active Member, I believe, is anybody who has logged in in the past 3 months.
OK, raise your hands. How many of you are like me, and became "active members" so they could post their objection to discontinuing the mags over there? (As if they're listening or anything). And how many of you, like me, also have at least one inactive "member account" that they've forgotten the password to and had to start a new one so they could complain. I'll wager WotC's "membership" has gone up by several thousand in the last week.
That's it I'm not posting stuff any more, this is just too f&%!ing repetitive.I'll stick to five word game thanks.
C'mon back. Yer already undead. Heathy is over there (tho he's a lycanth.. lyca...) a friggin' w00f!
OK, raise your hands. How many of you are like me, and became "active members" so they could post their objection to discontinuing the mags over there? (As if they're listening or anything). And how many of you, like me, also have at least one inactive "member account" that they've forgotten the password to and had to start a new one so they could complain. I'll wager WotC's "membership" has gone up by several thousand in the last week.
Members: 226,638, Active Members: 44,067Active Member, I believe, is anybody who has logged in in the past 3 months.
LOL! Wow, that's frightening in it's accuracy, although I created my new account about 2 weeks before the big announcement. Otherwise the same.
I find nazis of the coast to be more acurate than weasles of the coast, as I love weasles, ferrets, and similar animals.I don't think that comparing WotC to nazis is very appropriate at all. Whether you intend to or not, by doing so you compare the loss of Dungeon and Dragon in some way to the Holocaust, which is very uncool.Whether you like it or not, the notoriety of the Nazis is exploited by English speakers everywhere: it is part of the modern idiom. I don't think Seinfeld was worried about offending people when he called the mean soup guy the soup Nazi.
But we'll all try to be more politically correct so we don't make any real Nazis feel bad about being compared to dumb capitalist dorks.
Very funny... I guess folks like Uri Kurianchlik (sp?) are laughing at fun like this.
It may be common usage in english modern idiom. But on these boards are more than a few foreigners (who write in english as to not offend the others), so perhaps some little respect the other way would be nice.I´m offended at these comparisons. I´m a german, and absolutely ashamed for this pitch-dark history. I don´t like to be remembered of this in casual conversation or in jokes. There are enough testimonies around me, thank you. Every city, every town, heck almost every village has silent witnesses to these crimes. And absolitely nothing compares to the atrocities committed then.
Would you like if the US population would be tagged as slaveholders or Indian killers in casual conversation or jokes time and again?
Sorry, I could not let this stand.
Stefan
Blah...Blah...Blah, I also live in Germany and find it ridiculous that you are offended, because you are ashamed of something that you took no part in. Halt die Klappe!!!
You know what I think is funny? Have the idiots who decided to quit putting out these venerable mags. ever read prison, or scale mail? I mean D&D fans can be quite nit picky, in Dungeon#146 there is a guy who is actually complaining that an NPC is holding a heavy mace in an illustration and that in his stats. he is supposed to wield a light mace. If D&D players get pissed about these sorts of issues than how in the hell are they going to feel about losing 2 big parts of the game in one fell swoop? Idiots! I think the Game as a whole will suffer, and we as players will be missing an iconic part of our hobby. These magazines represent more than just profits for some company, they are a part of the culture of D&D, and I really don't know if I will even be interested in the game 5 yrs. from now w/o them, seeing as how I wouldn’t even have checked 3rd edition out if it weren’t for Dragon.
Hi Jason and Stebehil,
please discuss this issue per email of even better per telephon. A webboard is the wrong media.
Jason, that is no way to address someone in writing. Please edit away the profanity (right word?).
There are indeed several good arguments as not to relative anything concerning murder in that proportion.
Clear skies,
Lautlos
You are right, that is why I took such an abrupt tone, and that is also why I directly tried to get things back on track, and I'm not aware of using any profanity, I guess it's a matter of opinion (some people consider GOSH & Darn curse words), but rest assured You will not be hearing any more remotely negative comments from me, unless it is directed at those Magazine stealing Maggot brained Githyanki over at wizards of the coast; I hope there aren’t any Gith reading this (wouldn't want to offend anyone).
Back to topic, I was underwhelmed with this interview - nothing new, I did not even bother reading through it all. And asking the audience what they would like to see is either stupid or brazen or both, after this start.
If they use DRM, and use it in a way that there is a possibility that I don´t have the rights to use the material at some point in the future,I´m out. I have absolutely no patience for it if there is any chance at all that the stuff I pay for is not accessible, for whatever reason.
I would not buy a print magazine if the publisher has a legal right to deny me access to my own back issues if certain circumstances are met. Digital issues are different, sure, but so what? They might have continued printing it.
Stefan
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OK, raise your hands. How many of you are like me, and became "active members" so they could post their objection to discontinuing the mags over there? (As if they're listening or anything). And how many of you, like me, also have at least one inactive "member account" that they've forgotten the password to and had to start a new one so they could complain. I'll wager WotC's "membership" has gone up by several thousand in the last week.
Members: 226,638, Active Members: 44,067Active Member, I believe, is anybody who has logged in in the past 3 months.
I'll raise a paw to that.
I read some of your posts over there too; IMHO you're in the running for Paizoite poet laureate. I wish that in my fury I had a tenth of your ability to write cohesively.|
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w.r.t. the Nazi thing,...
there's a lot of people here who understandably have strong feelings about the issue.
My great uncle got shot down over Rumania and killed fighting the Nazis, and I'm sure there's others around here with more horrifying tales. I work in medicine, and every once in a while I get a patient with old faded bluish numbers on their forearm.
Comparison of W.O.T.C. to nazis isn't even a good metaphor; it's ludicrous, it's beyond overkill.
In light of all that, just please search your memory bank for a less inflammatory metaphor.
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A few things I walked away from in reading that WotC Q&A:
1. Dragon
a. Don't know what it's going to include
b. Don't know if there's going to be any rhyme or reason to what's going to be included
c. Don't know if there's going to be any order to what's being included
d. Don't know if I'm going to be able to download a .pdf of a "magazine" that I can take with me wherever I go
e. Don't think I'm interested. (Hecks, if they are going to Compendium things regularly, there's much less incentive to buy the online subscription anyhow! Maybe a Compendium will be available in both hardbound and .pdf, like Paizo's doing with Pathfinder. That'd be nice, and depending on content, I MIGHT be interested in something like that.)
2. Dungeon
a. uh? Anything? (I'd actually be more interested in .pdfs of adventures that a Dragon online replacement.) That said, I'd want .pdfs I can download and take with me wherever I want and use on whatever computer I want ... without the need to log into some stupid account in order to do so.)
In the end, I may be a bit confused. Paizo's .pdfs that you purchase become YOURS. You can do with them what you well. Hecks, if you have a hard drive crash, you can re-download that which you've purchased. NICE! WotC? As I understand it, access to the materials that you've purchased is subscription based? You may not be able to access "your" materials once your subscription runs out? This doesn't sound right. It sound more like a lease on materials than actually purchasing materials. Can someone break through my thick skull with some clarity?
what is great over on the wizards boards scott rouse is answearing questions. He gave me suce wonderful insights such as campign settings are importent and paper prouducts are importent.
In the end thank you paizo for holding are hands in this and not treating us like idiots.
Yah, they are closer to the slaveowning plantations than to nazi's. We're all just runaway slaves. ;)
Man, you step away from the comp a couple of days to handle an emergency, and look what you miss! Sebastian enraged and swinging a table leg over his head(Glad you're on our side- for us, not against us, eh? ;-) )! Fatey contemplating jumping off a ledge(Don't do it! And Scion is very good, btw- you should definetly check it out- it's more in line with American Gods and Anansi Boys than Dragonball Z or One Piece)! And WOTC being compared to Nazis? I understand where Steb is coming from on this, one of my best friends is of german decent and spent over a year in germany going to college. When he got back he was a changed man where american sentiments towards WWII are concerned. Be glad you don't read the papers here, people use analogies from that time every day for situations that just don't warrant it...but I digress.
For me, this was the final nail in the coffin. First Dragon/Dungeon, then Dragonlance(although the people on the Dragonlance boards are closing ranks admirably last I saw, eagerly making the game fan-based once more), and now THIS? I'm third party all the way now. I suspect I'll be a subscriber before the end of the summer.
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As those of you who have been around for a while can testify, we don't like to take a heavy hand with messageboard moderation, but we will if we have to. The direction this thread has taken is not where it should be headed.
Ease up a bit, folks!
-Vic.
Here, here!
Virtually everyone signed on to these boards is upset at recent events, however, comma...
words are extremely powerful. There must come a point where maturity and rationality overcome baser emotions. Free speech is the most powerful tool in any democracy, and old Milton would tell us that censorship will not merely kill the 9 poor uses of free speech, but the 10th outstanding use; it is "therefore, the rational, responsible citizen's duty to make the best use of the right, lest it be removed." As an aside, in regard to a couple of the more inflammatory posts: C. Dickens might have said, don't call a bread thief a murderer...
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As those of you who have been around for a while can testify, we don't like to take a heavy hand with messageboard moderation, but we will if we have to. The direction this thread has taken is not where it should be headed.
Ease up a bit, folks!
-Vic.
Here, here!
Virtually everyone signed on to these boards is upset at recent events, however, comma...
words are extremely powerful. There must come a point where maturity and rationality overcome baser emotions. Free speech is the most powerful tool in any democracy, and old Milton would tell us that censorship will not merely kill the 9 poor uses of free speech, but the 10th outstanding use; it is "therefore, the rational, responsible citizen's duty to make the best use of the right, lest it be removed." As an aside, in regard to a couple of the more inflammatory posts: C. Dickens might have said, don't call a bread thief a murderer...
Andrew, you got a .....little, ummm.... there is a bit..of....urrr...you seem to have a bit of brown odiferous matter smeared about thine nasal region. there. and there. and a bit over there. Here, have a mint, it's dignity flavored.
;PFH