I despise cheaters. The problem is that my group of players is small so I can not find replacements. I have killed PCs, taken players outside for a talks and even eaten two character sheets just to prove how much I hate cheating. I have added a D20 the size of a baseball so I can see the roles suspected cheaters are making, and still it occurs!
DM's, what are your stories of idiot players and how do you handle them?
I have added a D20 the size of a baseball
I'm not sure,but you could have them use a cup for rolling. How are they cheating with some info we could be more helpful. Oh and remember those baseball d20 hurt like a mother f~&~er.
Fizz
I am curious what their cheating offenses have been. Is it only dice rolls, or are they switching characters between encounters?
I despise cheaters. The problem is that my group of players is small so I can not find replacements. I have killed PCs, taken players outside for a talks and even eaten two character sheets just to prove how much I hate cheating. I have added a D20 the size of a baseball so I can see the roles suspected cheaters are making, and still it occurs!
DM's, what are your stories of idiot players and how do you handle them?
This is only an educated guess based on what you have offered so far...
If you have begun eating character sheets, and cheating has continued, I believe the players are cheating to upset you for outing them as cheaters.Another name for DM is game judge. This is what you have to be when running a game. Impartial to each player and calm in the face of adversity. (It is not always easy.)
The best way to avoid cheating is a fixed set of houe rules. You can find many good examples by doing a search for "house rules" here on Paizo. Start by having everyone roll on the same surface, preferably one that does not allow dice to fall onto the floor. All rolls must be checked by the DM before being picked up. If they are picked up beforehand they do not count.
If your problem lies in character creation use a point buy system. You can use 25, 28, 32 or 36. Another house rule is collecting character sheets at the end of the gaming session. This allows you time to check the sheets for errors.
Cheating is usually a results from believing you have been slighted in some way or shafted. If you catch someone cheating try to find out why they feel cheated. Good luck, keep us informed on how it works out.
You could use one of those computerized dice rollers. Then they couldn't cheat. This might break the habit so that you could go back to using real dice. Alternativley you could get some of those d20s that increase the odds of natural 20s and make them your special DM dice. Then once they figured out what you were doing you could stop using it if they promised to stop cheating or you could use it to show how it feels.
Revert to old-school practices.
When the games were first published (the old 3 book set Men & Magic, Monsters and Treasures, Underworld and Wilderness Adventures -- prior to Greyhawk, etc.) the DM rolled all the dice. The players roll-played (acted) and had no part in touching the random number generators.
Take the chance of cheating (of all kinds) completely out of their hands! See how they like them apples.
So I have this father and son duo in one of my games that are always trying for an added advantage. The son was easy to deal with because he cheats by hiding and fudging his die rolls. I just stayed on top of seeing his dice and second guessing his math.
His dad was/is more difficult. I run a lot of published material due to time constraints. While running City of the Spider Queen a few years ago these events clued me in:
1. While passing crypts that did contain vampires, the party checked out the sealed over doors and discovered the tiny gap at the bottom. The offending character, a gnome shadow dancer, said he can get in, but won't. Why? He thinks there are vampires in there.
2. He has never done it before and has never done it since, but right at an illusion wall he stopped and threw a rock at it.
3. At the bottow of a drow city I described all the things he could see, including a stream that flowed into a crack in the cave wall. He ran right to it, where a free treasure waited.
4. The party never takes prisoners, but he did, just once. In an area with a ghost that could only be put to rest be dragging a drow in there and killing it.
5. Dungeon Magazine published a side trek for the adventure concerning an illithid prison. There were several trapped rooms in it, save or die stuff. He opened every door except for the trapped ones.
It was frustrating at first. I didn't want to be a jerk in case he was just guessing really lucky. So at first I just started adjusting stuff, changing trap and treasure locations, etc. As it continued over the months the adventure lasted, I finally talked to him about it... and he denied cheating. What could I do? Well, I finally figured it out. If he wants to play this way, then let him. If it's fun for him to know how it's going to play out then, ok. I still move around or otherwise adjust some stuff, and he has entirely lost my trust. Whenever I feel something is amiss I take note and later the monsters give him a special treat. Btw, I still think he's doing it. There was a "how the hell do you know that", moment during Expedition to Castle Ravenloft.
His dad was/is more difficult. I run a lot of published material due to time constraints. While running City of the Spider Queen a few years ago these events clued me in:
Do you have to tell him what adventure your running?
Rogue: (Rolls piles of dice) "I sneak attack the creature with a 36 to hit" (Starts rolling damage- which is odd because he justifies the pile roll by saying he rolls damage at the same time) "Woah... I did like 42 points of damage!"
Me: "Wow, that's a great roll, can I see your die where it lies?"
Rogue: "Sure". mimes pushing it over "oops, I turned it...it was like a 17" (every player knows his die roll result, no "like" about it)
Me: "So your modifier is a +19?" (12th level Rogue with a 20 dex and a +1 crossbow, firing from outside point blank (he has that 60' sneak attack feat from PH2) with no weapon focus)
Rogue: "Oh, yeah, I think maybe its like a +15"
Me: "Would you mind re-rolling your attack after you figure out your exact modifier"
Rogue: With Anger "What.... Are you accusing me of cheating...?!?"
Me: No, it's a house rule that you must state all modifiers to die rolls before rolling them or be asked to reroll at the DM's discretion.
Rogue: "Since when (pouting) that's not fair"
Rest of Players: (Staring at big sign behind my head which enumerates house rules in mute silence)
Me: (pointing at sign) "please re-roll"
Rogue: "That's BS...I rolled a 34 or something (livid with rage now)"
Me: "OK, a "34" misses... Next?
Rogue: (eyes me angrily)
Cleric: "Okay, I have a +12 modifier to this ranged attack... I rolled a 15.. nice, 27....
Me: "You hit with a 27. Nice shooting, Haji!"
Cleric: "excellent, my damage is 6 hit points"
Rogue: "NO F-n way!!!! (shouting)
Me: "Sorry, Thdulgir, that pile of BS you were spewing provided the creature with improved cover, causing you to miss. Next...
Was I justified?
Me: "Sorry, Thdulgir, that pile of BS you were spewing provided the creature with improved cover, causing you to miss.
That's a brilliant concept.
hmm, if it is a widespread as you say, then just incorporate it into your story line; let pcs have wild stats or bonuses or whatever just allow for it in your game; perhaps things like this will help.
A random number chart; make some number of charts for the die in question; take d20 for example; chart one might be the numbers in reverse order so a 1 is a 20, a two a 19; make another list with the numbers in yet another sequence; make about 6 of them; number your charts 1-6 and change their order each week; have your pcs tell you the number they rolled and what their bonus to the roll is; you can have them or do it yourself; roll a d6 to find which list to use; apply that number and find the resultant; then add the bonus. Make as many charts as you need. After a while, cheating will not be productive as they won't know what number is a good one to roll.
or
you could just do all the chance rolls, which is what dice are for anyway; yourself; or have them preroll a list of say 30 d20 rolls and then give them to you; you apply them in order as skill checks and whatnot come up; you could then in your spare time make a statistical graph of the numbers each person rolls and display that sheet in a shameful method such as on the outside of your dm screen, but dont say a word; the graph will speak for itself.
A good gm doesnt get mad; be inpartial; just incorporate things into your game; hehe some say gms dont get mad; they get even :)
their are many other constructive things you can do without ruining the game and making outcast players; maybe this is why that creature in the old game; the tween, existed; you could supe him up some and give him to a player who doesnt cheat and have it appy a d6 to that characters rolls and negative that number to everyone elses rolls each round. You could also have the gods of chance take a roll in the players lives and altering reality causing failures to succeed and successes to fail; do both; dont be one sided.
these are just some of the top of my head; really there are many, many things you can do and not damage your relationship with your players; mabye you need to run a more cartoon type world; who knows; explore possibilities.
Yep, these were some of the most remember games I ever played as you got to concentrate on role playing and just trying and doing things; worked out really well; fond memories
Revert to old-school practices.
When the games were first published (the old 3 book set Men & Magic, Monsters and Treasures, Underworld and Wilderness Adventures -- prior to Greyhawk, etc.) the DM rolled all the dice. The players roll-played (acted) and had no part in touching the random number generators.
Take the chance of cheating (of all kinds) completely out of their hands! See how they like them apples.
Hmm interesting Zerocharisma; I cant really comment as I have never had a play say I wasn't fair; or its not fair; as we all know life is not fair; I detest argueing with players about anything; if i said reroll; you reroll end of story; I certainly wouldnt hold up everyone else over such a thing so I tend to thing you handled it very well though I would have left out the "spewing comment of BS" part, but that is just me. I would have left it at; you missed and you dont know why; life is full of explained mysteries.
Do you have to tell him what adventure your running?
With CotSQ and EtCR it would have been difficult to hide due to the length of the adventure. And I decided that I'm not going to let this guy stop me from running what I want. I just have to assume that he's not getting the full experience of the adventure, and thus not having as much fun as the other players.
Slovotsky's Laws #19: When telling a story, effect trumps truth.
I invoke the 19th. I actually take hurting player's feelings (even cheaters) pretty seriously. I didn't really make the BS comment (although I wanted to) and I thought it made a better story. In real life I simply told him "Sorry, you missed, can we please move on." and referenced the clearly posted rules about conduct, behavior and arguing with the DM. We spoke later in private and I explained to him my misgivings about his cheating (which has been a chronic problem with this player, even to this day) and "fudging" and asked him nicely to respect my game.
From the Merchants of Astephel Player Guide (and rule #4 on my rule board):
"OOC disrespect or abuse of fellow players, the gaming space and rules of order will not be tolerated. The DM reserves the right to respond to such behavior with any necessary in-game consequences. Repeat offenders will be asked to leave the game."
Just trying to show you I am really not a bad guy, and I appreciate the sentiment of your post. I am still (after two decades) learning as a DM and creator of campaigns, but I feel like letting someone get away with cheating is tantamount to disrespecting your other player's time and effort. It needs to be adressed, but certainly can be without unpleasantry or abusing your power as DM.
lol; i didnt think you were a bad guy at all; just caught up in the moment as we do be sometimes :)I got a whole closet full of skeletons of things I wish I hadn't said :) now that I am older; sigh a lot older. hehe like your caviats and storytelling is always good.
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I've never caught anyone cheating while GM'ing, though as a player I suspect that another player is a chronic cheater. She claims to have a "lucky die" which almost always rolls above 15, but on at least one occasion I saw her fudge a die roll - she rolled a 12, griped that she only had +1 in Spot, then announced her total of 15. We usually play around a coffee table, so a bunch of the players end up rolling off by themselves a lot of the time, but if I GM for this person, I plan to have an area designated for all player die rolls.
I really like your way of doing things, ZeroCha. I too would be hesitant to offend anyone, but sometimes you just have to let them know that certain things won't be tolerated at the table.
That said, the player ghetto mentioned sounds even worse than someone fudging a die roll. Reading the adventures beforehand basically negates the entire purpose of playing, in my opinion. My advice, if you really want to stop him from doing this, is to swap a treasure hoard in your next module for a sphere of annihilation. Poof, no more character. Next time you get the idea that he's doing the same thing, do it again. If you can stomach the problem, keep doing what you've been doing, but I think a tactic like that is pretty damaging to the game and should be treated as such.
Revert to old-school practices.
When the games were first published (the old 3 book set Men & Magic, Monsters and Treasures, Underworld and Wilderness Adventures -- prior to Greyhawk, etc.) the DM rolled all the dice. The players roll-played (acted) and had no part in touching the random number generators.
Take the chance of cheating (of all kinds) completely out of their hands! See how they like them apples.
Played one campaign like that, which was rather low on combat...DM rolled all the dice (or perhaps just made rattling noise with dice and decided what would happen), the players didn't even have definite character sheets where they could see their stats...we just had our mental concepts (and occasional delusions) what our characters could and could not do. That was fun.
Cheating on dice rolls is pretty low but as long as everyone in the group agrees on it, I don't vent too much about it... and at some point when we were playing RuneQuest it was common practice when rolling percentiles to first roll 'tens' die and if we were unhappy with the roll, roll 'ones' die so that it hits the other die and maybe turns it to another number...but when everyone knows this rule, it was accepted.
Players who know the module beforehand AND exploit their out-of-character knowledge, on the other hand, are lowest of the low. Their characters are safe game to get electrocuted to death by ex-tempore trap which was put on the "safe" door. Repeatedly if needed. Aversion therapy, baby.
I have couple of times played a pre-generated adventure which I have played or DMd before but then I usually mention it to DM, try to do as my character would do and in general fall in background when making major decisions.
well, to advocate a bit for the other side...
back 20 years ago or so when i was in college and none of us were married or entangled or anything; we used to play all night long and go home bout when them early morning joggers are out. Anyway; we used to drink a lot; a whole lot of beer and get quite blasted playing AD&D and all had a great time, but that is when a lot of my players would cheat, more so for the ludicrousness of it; had a guy roll like ten d20's and get a 20 each time and I believed it cause the die roll said 20 and I would yell out; the heroes are UP heh from torg, but what they guy was doing was he rolled a 20 once; and then just rolled another die and pointed to the 20; hehe some of my buds told me later and we all laughed about it as silliness like this would abound but not hurt the story or game; i just incorporated it in; hehe many of my pcs are convinced now that they are not tuff enough to have a nice magic item as somebody will hear about it and come beat them up and take it from them saying they arent tuff enough for this weapon; if they really want it; come take it back; hehe so a lot of the crazy items i gave out in those times ended up getting sacrified in prayer back to the gods before ehem; dm tribulations came calling. Hehe they used to fumble on purpose too just at perfect moments, drop stuff; throw weapon over the bad guys, at each other; all stuff that made a great story of what they were; bunch of drafted scrubs who were hesitant heroes at best trying to make good of a bad situation. Was good times.
sigh, we dont all joke around as much anymore or hardly drink at all and were all very civilized and stogie. Even though it was cheating; it kept us laughing and added to the story. So, if you can; just find a way to incorporate it into the story.
Here is another suggestion; give the guy a magic item that can talk; a fairly decent one; maybe one that hits every time, but never goes first or hits every time and makes up the difference in what he missed the hit by taking hps from him to make up the difference. Maybe a sword with a difficult attitude to represent his difficult attitude. One that bonds to him; makes him sleep walk and get rid of other "inferior" magic weapons, talks down about other weapons; never hits first because he is that good and in the spirit of charity and marital prowess he doesnt want to show up the other guy so sometimes he doesnt swing or wont swing just to be fair to the other guy your understand who is not as good, but is trying; mabye the sword is a teacher type and gives the bad guys instructions or lessons on how to fight better because they are doing such a lousy job. Maybe only the player can hear it; and the sword is warded so nobody else can find out its magic. You could suggest that maybe the player is developing a split personality; hehe the sword takes over at night and walks him about talking to people completely differently. Maybe he wakes up in strange places; the player may never get the idea; but, you can have fun with it - not to screw over - to train; it has to be good enough that he wants to keep it; maybe heals him after the battle; gives fast heal 2 or something, mabye gives bonus to other players that it doesnt give to him; like a paladin aura that is a donut with him excluded; which the sword claims he doesnt need; would be fair as the player has him. Make it a +6 sword that hates some enemy type like say, evil outsiders or somethign ;that it is completly powerless against but drives the player into a beserk rage to attack; the other pc will have to save him and kill his enemy at this point so you should probably make it something not to common but throw one in every once in a while.
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I have read, played in, and otherwise own almost all published modules, Dungeon adventures, and other adventures posted on other sites (WotC and various others). If a DM is running an adventure that they found somewhere, I have probably read it. That being said.....
The times when I have found myself recognizing an adventure, I ignore any inclinations I may have had and rely totally on character knowledge. I also have told the DM that I recognize the adventure, I promise not to re-read it, and I let them know that Out of Character knowledge will not come into play. I have actually known of certain dangers and blundered into them full knowing that my pc could be slain. I have run Sunless Citadel 2-3 times and played through it twice. If someone wants to run it I am there. OOC knowledge plays no part in my play style, and sometimes it is fun to know one thing and act like you don't to the detriment of your PC.
It is a game, I want it to be fun for me and everyone gaming with me, to cheat is disgusting and ridiculous. Maturity is required.
FH
New feat for player characters whose player wants to use OOC information (and for DMs who allow such foolishness):
Self-referential awareness
Requisites: Int 20, Wis 20, must have witnessed at least one rule-related paradox in the campaign.
Description: Character is aware of being a character in roleplaying game and can exploit this knowledge as much as possible. Tactical decisions based on loopholes in game mechanics, OOC information and general disregard of simulation attempt of reality are fair game.
Special: Character can take this feat without meeting the requirements in following situations:
1. Character has played through the example adventure in Over The Edge RPG (at least in 1st edition).
2. Character has appeared in Order of the Stick comic strip but is not created by Rich Burlew.
3. Player is Rich Burlew.
Is it just me, or has Daisho not yet given any details?
Is it just me, or has Daisho not yet given any details?
Mr. Tequila Sunrise, you are totally right. I have been way to neglectful to check up on my thread and for that I apologize.
Details: There is one key person in my group who is the problem, I will call him Jay. We play around a pool table and the man always finds a way to sit at the polar opposite of my end which does not allow me to see his roles (hence the big-@ss D20). I don't want him to always snuggle up next to me because it would be a little creepy (you would understand if you saw him :( ) and I don't want to abuse my power. I have made him DM a few time but he sucks at it so that is out of the question. No matter who DM's the guy never roles anything below a 15 unless it truly does not matter and I am the only DM who will call him on it.
The cup-o-dice is a good idea but our gameplay style is as fast as possible. For example, I will be managing a large battle with many momsters and NPCs. I cannot watch every person individually so I have to trust them. Most of the players are responsible and I have faith in them. Jay, however, roles quickly, belts out the result (a 19 about 60% of the time which is bull crap) and continues to role. I would love it if he slowed down but I know the other players will get frustrated at a long lag time between turns.
When another person DMs it only gets worse because he know that I no longer have any authority over him and our other mane DM is a wussy. When Jay roles so high all the time it creates a power vacuum which forces our other DM to compensate by super powering the NPCs and monsters thereby making it harder for the honest players. I guess that I am coming to this: I need a way to slow gameplay down without making it less interesting to the players and I need a way to toughen up the other DM so we can provide a united front.
To adress other issues:
Yes, the mega D20s hurt like nothing else. I've split a knuckle on it when it fell off a shelf onto my hand. I have respected it ever since.
The idea to use a computer to role the dice would be useful but my players are to used to having a large amount of control over thier characters. As evidenced by a game room riot when another DM claimed that he would be would be rolling for us.
When it comes to switching characters I allow it. I design my campaigns around areas and interests not race. However, I would very much enjoy it if my players always used the same characters as it would make things easier for me and I believe that I can have a different style campaign for once.
P.S. I haven't really eaten any character sheets but I have torn two apart. They were so corrupted that erasing them would have ruined the paper anyway. I merely pointed out the problems, tore up the characters and told them to make new ones. Example: A guy was knowingly paying for magic items using the cost to create and not the market price which had been affecting his character for 12 levels, he was effectively 15th level by my estimates.
So I have this father and son duo in one of my games that are always trying for an added advantage. The son was easy to deal with because he cheats by hiding and fudging his die rolls. I just stayed on top of seeing his dice and second guessing his math.
His dad was/is more difficult. I run a lot of published material due to time constraints. While running City of the Spider Queen a few years ago these events clued me in:
1. While passing crypts that did contain vampires, the party checked out the sealed over doors and discovered the tiny gap at the bottom. The offending character, a gnome shadow dancer, said he can get in, but won't. Why? He thinks there are vampires in there.
2. He has never done it before and has never done it since, but right at an illusion wall he stopped and threw a rock at it.
3. At the bottow of a drow city I described all the things he could see, including a stream that flowed into a crack in the cave wall. He ran right to it, where a free treasure waited.
4. The party never takes prisoners, but he did, just once. In an area with a ghost that could only be put to rest be dragging a drow in there and killing it.
5. Dungeon Magazine published a side trek for the adventure concerning an illithid prison. There were several trapped rooms in it, save or die stuff. He opened every door except for the trapped ones.
It was frustrating at first. I didn't want to be a jerk in case he was just guessing really lucky. So at first I just started adjusting stuff, changing trap and treasure locations, etc. As it continued over the months the adventure lasted, I finally talked to him about it... and he denied cheating. What could I do? Well, I finally figured it out. If he wants to play this way, then let him. If it's fun for him to know how it's going to play out then, ok. I still move around or otherwise adjust some stuff, and he has entirely lost my trust. Whenever I feel something is amiss I take note and later the monsters give him a special treat. Btw, I still think he's doing...
I would read the adventure you are playing in detail.Find an area where there is the nice treasure goodies etc and put a really nasty kick ass trap. That way when the cheater goes to grab the goodies kapoweee! and do it regularly so he either gets the hint but in no way can he accuse you of bias.He should not know any goodies are there unless he is cheating and so he cannot whine that the trap should not be there unless he admits to reading the adventure beforehand.
Director of Sales
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I despise cheaters. The problem is that my group of players is small so I can not find replacements.
IMHO: Boot him. Play with one less player. If your area has few available replacements, then it's very unlikely that he will be able to find a new game. Then if/when he comes back asking to be let in again, you tell him that he sits right next to you and rolls into a box right in front of you. If he cannot do that, then he can find another group. Make sure you have the support of the other main DM and get rid of "Jay". This will also serve as a warning for the other players, though from what you describe, they will probably be glad he's gone.
There is simply no excuse for this kind of behavior.
I figure its worth pointing out that DMing style can influence how much of a problem this sort of thing is as well.
I would not long put up with a cheater. My players die - and they do so moderately frequently because I throw tough monsters at them and play the monsters with the goal of killing them. A cheater takes away from the other players in that he or she no longer suffers the same chance of dying - in other words he or she is not taking the same kind of lumps as the rest of them. Put another way its annoying for me but he's actually cheating his team mates by not taking the same risks as they are.
I figure the same thing is true if a player reads the adventure ahead of time - everyone else is down there taking risks except this cheating player who is not shouldering their fair share but is certianly around when it times to collect their share of the loot.
Going over the DM Kill Board thread again, I noticed that you managed to take the cheating player's character out with a paralysis/fireball combo, ZeroCharisma, so kudos on that!
Hey Cosmo, Itook your advice to heart.
I have thought about booting him for a long time but recent events made it possible.
We have always played at his place because it was the perfect location and it had an entire game room. With no where else to play, all of us excluding Jay were always eyeballing alternatives and something came up. My friends cousin is going to be coming up from LA every weekend now and he wants to play. That same friend is moving closer to town. Overall, everythings fixed, we have a new player and a new place to play. And all within four hours! A very memerable day. We'll see how the new guy shapes up.
If anyone's interested check out DM Kill Board for one event that is memerable in my group. And ya, you can guess who took the hoof to the head.
And just for reference my new Profile is Atlas
in big battles with many mobs I usually use an assistant gm to keeps things moving smoothly, the assistant is a player whom I trust who usually just sits around waiting for his turn; maybe this will work for you maybe not; but I give him a couple packs of the mob type monsters to roll for and track damage though I still controll their targets and actions. It works well for me, but may not for you, he also watches peoples rolls at the other end of the table though I dont have a problem with this. If you try this and give someone the title of assistant gm and give him a few mobs and sit him across from you, the opportunity for cheating may dissappear. I am all about retraining an reteaching and getting to the heart of the matter rather than punative measures.
Ask yourself how would you deserve to be treated in his position then ask yourself how would like to be treated. Am starting to guess that this person is not an "in" group of your friends, might not even feel very welcome, resentment does funny things; just decide; are you going to be a friend or not; if not; boot him.
So I have this father and son duo... His dad was/is more difficult...
I had an identical player, that we nevertheless enjoyed playing with.
I did what you did -- change things. Whenever a critical encounter was reached, he would get argumentative and act like I was doing or describing something wrong when (and only when) things weren't in synch with the published material.
Of course, he couldn't justify to me or anyone else his sporadic hostility, lest he reveal what he was doing.
Things worked out in the end, though he never completely gave up his cheating ways.
Cheating is always a hassle. You can't accuse players of cheating without offending them - and what's more, you may occasionally be wrong. Even so there's no way to be sure they're going to stop once they know you're onto them.
I suppose the best you can do is to make it less viable for players to cheat. If you're using a prewritten adventure, swap things around a bit now and then so a cheater doesn't know where all the traps and hidden treasure is. Move monsters around; perhaps the monsters wandered and ended up in different chambers than the adventure says.
In general, if a player gets an exceedingly high roll I ask them what bonuses they had to get that. If it turns out they were cheating, it will be revealed. If it turns out that they added wrong, then that's fine, everyone makes a mistake. However, if it turns out that they managed to do it legitimately, then it lets them feel especially proud that even the DM couldn't believe how awesome their powerful character was.
The #1 cheater in my group is actually a pretty cool guy outside of D&D but he is completely addicted to the game. He has alredy been asking to play with our group after we kicked him out, such a shame. Thankfully he has a girlfriend that he is getting pretty serious with which is a nice break for the rest of us. I will probably give myself some time to simmer and then let him back in, I can't stay mad forever.
And when it comes to an extra DM I have one guy who is actually qualified and willing. I usually reward him with the same XP and treasure as everyone else received for lightening the load. It's just that the guy is there maybe one in ten play sessions and one guy refuses, another is way too new and the last guy just isn't any good at DMing in any way.
I am testing a new format out for myself where I have the players write down their saves, # of spells, HP, AC and stats. So far so good. A little complaining and a little extra work. I figure if this goes well then I can bring back the other guy and use this to keep and eye on him from afar. Unfortunatly, he is the only one who desrerves this ankle bracelet but I have found it useful for catching mistakes too.
As far as dice roles, slow the pace down and get a look at what is being rolled. I use 1...,2...,3...roll count rule. I have made players,who roll before i counted to three re-roll thier good roles(they won't hesitate to re-roll a bad one).
If they ask, tell your players you don't trust them. A DM always has a right to see a die roll and ask for a re-roll. Honest players won't have an issue with calling for a re-roll. Cheaters always get upset, will question your integrity and even walk off the table (check the thread on kicking out a player to see how I deal with that issue). But if you are fair and consistent your players will trust you. Players trusting the Dm is far more important than a Dm trusting the players.
The #1 cheater in my group is actually a pretty cool guy outside of D&D but he is completely addicted to the game. He has alredy been asking to play with our group after we kicked him out, such a shame. Thankfully he has a girlfriend that he is getting pretty serious with which is a nice break for the rest of us. I will probably give myself some time to simmer and then let him back in, I can't stay mad forever.
And when it comes to an extra DM I have one guy who is actually qualified and willing. I usually reward him with the same XP and treasure as everyone else received for lightening the load. It's just that the guy is there maybe one in ten play sessions and one guy refuses, another is way too new and the last guy just isn't any good at DMing in any way.
I am testing a new format out for myself where I have the players write down their saves, # of spells, HP, AC and stats. So far so good. A little complaining and a little extra work. I figure if this goes well then I can bring back the other guy and use this to keep and eye on him from afar. Unfortunatly, he is the only one who desrerves this ankle bracelet but I have found it useful for catching mistakes too.
The problem with this approach is you will get bogged down if you plan to keep track of the changing of the stats as the game progressess. I used the cards before for this reason and to help me track initiative. I still use the cards to track initiative. I have players write down what spells they have running on the card as well as alignment for my own quick reference. Otherwise I just have to trust my characters on tracking HP and such. Although I did start tracking arrows shot by one player on the card. Because he was terrible at it and never ran out of arrows. After catching him not tracking his arrows, a discussion about my lack of trust, where he can go if he don't trust me as DM, he started to track arrows.
This same player also had the ugliest charactersheet. So if I could not read it, he either did ont have that ability/ skill or a bonus of +0. I have to check, but he now keeps it cleaner.
But if I can't read the stats on a character sheet then the player has got to get a new one.
As far as dice roles, slow the pace down and get a look at what is being rolled. I use 1...,2...,3...roll count rule. I have made players,who roll before i counted to three re-roll thier good roles(they won't hesitate to re-roll a bad one).
Cheaters also have lucky dice that the DM can't read. I have argued with many players on the unreadable lucky dice issue. If I as a DM cannot read the die then they will always read that die as a 1, and it will no longer be lucky.
These seem as harsh things to do, but cheating just spoils the fun. Don't tolerate (much of it) cheating be blunt and honest about it. If the player wants to play, they will stop cheating because they no it is wrong. If not get rid them. You don't need to run a game that you are not having fun in.
I try to make it a two-way street. The players don't cheat and therefore I trust them, and in return they can trust that I won't screw around with important roles or monster stats.
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Cheaters also have lucky dice that the DM can't read. I have argued with many players on the unreadable lucky dice issue.
Is this a common method of cheating? The player in my group always talks about how her die is so lucky...the only problem is that it's very difficult to read it.
I'm starting the SCAP this coming weekend, and I really don't want to break trust by forcing everyone to roll in a box in front of me or something that extreme. I think I'm going to station my girlfriend next to this player to keep an eye on her rolls and signal me if she cheats, then implement some harsher measures once I get proof.
I've had other people watch a suspected cheater for me and all I ever got from them was "I think that he might be cheating but I'm not 100% sure."
The most useful way I found to catch someone redhanded was to be a player and sit next to them and just watch. Of course I was not in any position to really call him out on it because of the fact that our other DM wouldn't do anything about it. But it was a good way to see how he cheats and under what situations.
I'm starting the SCAP this coming weekend, and I really don't want to break trust by forcing everyone to roll in a box in front of me or something that extreme.
Hmm, when I game and the players sit on a table the rolls are typically made in a box. Habit started from red box D&D and now when the game no longer has a box we just pick a cover from some boardgame. If the die bounces off the box, it is rerolled. I don't really suspect anyone of cheating, it just results to less clutter when dice are not randomly flying across the table, knocking down miniatures (or whatever) or rolling under the couch...
If we don't play on table but more like lounging in room the game is less about rolls then, so cheating doesn't matter that much and since rolling the dice is less common it grabs everyone's attention and cheating becomes more difficult.Oh, and when I DM I fudge dice rolls. Players know that. The monsters really don't throw 1's and 2's that often in damage rolls.
I'm starting the SCAP this coming weekend, and I really don't want to break trust by forcing everyone to roll in a box in front of me or something that extreme.Hmm, when I game and the players sit on a table the rolls are typically made in a box. Habit started from red box D&D and now when the game no longer has a box we just pick a cover from some boardgame. If the die bounces off the box, it is rerolled. I don't really suspect anyone of cheating, it just results to less clutter when dice are not randomly flying across the table, knocking down miniatures (or whatever) or rolling under the couch...
If we don't play on table but more like lounging in room the game is less about rolls then, so cheating doesn't matter that much and since rolling the dice is less common it grabs everyone's attention and cheating becomes more difficult.Oh, and when I DM I fudge dice rolls. Players know that. The monsters really don't throw 1's and 2's that often in damage rolls.
#I recommend roling in box, sometimes if its a saving throw keep the suspense up, give the player a gruesome description of whats happened, "The slavering poisonous ichor from the creatures maw drips onto your skin!" then make them roll in a box in front of you.Sometimes i keep the box above their eyeline that way i see the roll, they don't, Perhaps they have been charmed, would the character know they have been charmed? would the rest of the party? no! so maybe those rolls should be in secret. What about sense motive , do you just say you failed your roll, then the party meta games, "maybe he is going to betray us , we just failed our roll!"
With rolling in front of you and at specific times the cheater cannot cheat, you have removed that advantage of him rolling his sdice without anyone knowing.Maybe have a special d20 of doom just for the saving rolls that way there is no way it can be a loaded d20.
I'm starting the SCAP this coming weekend, and I really don't want to break trust by forcing everyone to roll in a box in front of me or something that extreme. I think I'm going to station my girlfriend next to this player to keep an eye on her rolls and signal me if she cheats, then implement some harsher measures once I get proof.
I think if you want honesty you got to play honest. Your girlfriend spying is just sneaky, and demonstrates a lack of trust. What if she catches him cheating, are you going to tell everyone, "My girlfriend is a spy and caught you cheating." Boy thats a great way to establish trust.
Insist everyone roles where you can see. Let them no first thing As DM you have a right to ask for a re-roll. Be consistant for everyone and yourself. Let them see your attack roles and damge roles. If you want your players to be honest with thier rolls, you need to be honest with yours.In my experience 25+ years and counting of Dming, those who call you on "Trust" with regards to die rolls are usually cheating. Honest players will play with by your rules and will expect the same.
yep; what Sir K said and stuff; am all into working things out gently myself or making changes so it just doesn't matter.
I can't really imagine we have to much more to talk about in this thread; nice that you can have a cooling off period.
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I had a player I suspected was cheating on dice rolls so I sat another trusted player next to him to keep and eye on his rolls. Turns out he was cheating... the trusted player slipped me a note that said "How does a 1 to hit and a 1 on the damage dice equal 20 points of damage?"
This cheating player was the husband of another player who was a good friend of mine. In the interests of keeping the peace and not creating a rift between friends I just decided to cheat back towards him in the exact same way. The monsters would sometimes hit even if they actually missed based on the die roll. I would sometimes add extra damage to a die roll against him. And I would sometimes just not record the damage he did agasint creatures.
This isn't a perfect solution because you never actually call the cheater out but it worked in this case because it kept the cheating from affecting the game and allowed everyone to remain friends outside the game.
I had a player I suspected was cheating on dice rolls so I sat another trusted player next to him to keep and eye on his rolls. Turns out he was cheating... the trusted player slipped me a note that said "How does a 1 to hit and a 1 on the damage dice equal 20 points of damage?"
This players was the husband of another player who was a good friend of mine. In the interested of keeping the peace and not creating a rift between friends I just decided to cheat back towards him in the exact same way. The monsters would sometimes hit even if they actually missed based on the die roll. I would sometimes add extra damage to a die roll against him. And I would sometimes just not record the damage he did agasint creatures.
This isn't a perfect solution because you never actually call the cheater out but it worked in this case because it kept the cheating from affecting the game and allowed everyone to remain friends outside the game.
I find this strange, as Every game I have ever played in The Dm can see the dice rolls as they are do in front. Perhaps there are some Dms who are gnomes behind their screens and cannot see over them.When I DM i stasnd up a lot look down on the players when describing and watch them roll dice in front of me.Players who wanted to roll in secret would soon be sussed on our table.
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It depends on the group size. At the time I was dealing with my cheater I was DMing 9 people in the game. It was easy for that player to sit far enough away that I couldn't see his dice. I will admit that if you only had 4 people around a small table it would be a lot harder to cheat but it's not so hard if you have either a big table or a lot of players.
I have six players now so they all sit around a 6-foot table and I sit at a smaller card table nearby. Right now I can't see anyone's die rolls but I don't currently suspect anyone is cheating so it makes it easier for me not to be sitting at the same table.
DM's, what are your stories of idiot players and how do you handle them?
Not too long ago a friend was GMing a Star Wars D20 game. At one point he did try and rail-road us, but it was during a prelude to the actual adventure so we mostly went along with it:
When faced with an 'army' of Droids trying to stun Lv 3 PCs, you'd think that it wouldn't be to long before the PCs went down. So we started to fall in battle; some went down immediately, others managing to last a couple of rounds. However one PC managed to hold out continously against 20+ droids, round after round...Each time he was hit, the player had to make a DC 17 Fortitude save. The PC had +3 to his save roll. So the odds are that the PC will go down after the first stun, but not this PC! He managed to save against 54 such attacks before he was finally subdued!
Of course it is also worth noting that this player likes to roll his transparent dice in quick succession on a book about 3/4 of the way up between his groin and his chin.
This player used a similar tactic when I recently GMed D&D, so I had to rule (unbeknownst to him) that each creature he attacked (and seemed to nearly always score a critical hit upon) had damaged reduction which only applied to that PC's attack, otherwise he could just decimate an army (I was running Red Hand of Doom at the time) whilst the rest of the players took out a small handful of foes.
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I think if you want honesty you got to play honest. Your girlfriend spying is just sneaky, and demonstrates a lack of trust. What if she catches him cheating, are you going to tell everyone, "My girlfriend is a spy and caught you cheating." Boy thats a great way to establish trust.
Insist everyone roles where you can see. Let them no first thing As DM you have a right to ask for a re-roll. Be consistant for everyone and yourself. Let them see your attack roles and damge roles. If you want your players to be honest with thier rolls, you need to be honest with yours.
In my own defense, I wasn't planning on outing the cheater right there with cries of "My spy caught you cheating! Mwahahaha, my plan succeeded!" It would be more along the lines of just having her watch the player's rolls over the course of the first session to let me know if there is any problem with cheating. Then, if there is, I'd implement the roll-in-a-box rule without explaining exactly why.
I might just go ahead and start off with it anyway, though.
I had a cheater in my group a few years back.
The guy in question was playing a female rogue who never did anything that put her at risk - she was a complete coward, and always made sure everyone else protected her. But the player had made a number of "lucky guesses" about what situations were actually threats, and what situations offered financial opportunities. Then my husband noticed (during a snack break) that the player had copies of the adventures I was running, and carried them in his backpack.
So I decided to change things around. I replaced most of the encounters in a multi-level lighthouse tower (third Freeport adventure). In the adventure as-written, the floor level was fairly dangerous, but there were no monsters at all on the second level. So when they get to the island, the guy playing the female rogue suddenly decides she's going to climb the outside of the lighthouse to get to the windows on the second level, all by herself. (She'd never, ever split up from the party before this.) One of the others decided to go after her, the others were still trying to figure out if they could climb up or not, when the monster I'd placed on the second floor reached out with tentacles and grappled the rogue, and dragged her inside.
Long story short, the rogue's luck completely changed on my re-written version of the tower, and I had pretty definite evidence that the player had been cheating. I intended to leave it at that, and just change things around more in the future, because I believed at the time that it was too difficult to find replacement players in my area.
The very next week, the cheater guy picked a fight in-character with another member of the party, in a way that made the whole group look bad during an important diplomatic encounter (the remaining lords of Freeport). He did this, I believe, because he was pissed off at having the story changed from what he'd researched in advance. He made such a mess of things, and insisted the other player had started the argument and owed him an apology, etc. - and we ended up kicking him (the cheating player) out at that point.
I should've just kicked him out the moment I had good evidence he was cheating. It would've wasted a lot less time and caused the other members of the group a lot less misery.
I might just go ahead and start off with it anyway, though.
I think if you want honesty you got to play honest. Your girlfriend spying is just sneaky, and demonstrates a lack of trust. What if she catches him cheating, are you going to tell everyone, "My girlfriend is a spy and caught you cheating." Boy thats a great way to establish trust.
Insist everyone roles where you can see. Let them no first thing As DM you have a right to ask for a re-roll. Be consistant for everyone and yourself. Let them see your attack roles and damge roles. If you want your players to be honest with thier rolls, you need to be honest with yours.In my own defense, I wasn't planning on outing the cheater right there with cries of "My spy caught you cheating! Mwahahaha, my plan succeeded!" It would be more along the lines of just having her watch the player's rolls over the course of the first session to let me know if there is any problem with cheating. Then, if there is, I'd implement the roll-in-a-box rule without explaining exactly why.
My advice, go for the box. Skip the mid step spy action and keep everyone honest with the rolling in the box.
Whether you do it now or after you find someone cheating, you will still have explain to your players why you made the change. Say it is a pre-emptive measure so you "Can keep the game honest." Besides even if you never reveal your spy, it is still sneaky.