I am just getting ready to start the Savage Tide and my players have finalized their characters. For those of you that have run this adventure path, do I need to add in any additional NPC's to support this party based upon the following:
Aasimar Paladin
something Monk
Human Cleric (perhaps adding Ninja, she worships Xan Yae)
Human Bard
something Sorcerer
I know this is not as exotic as some of the party compositions I saw in that thread, but that was by design. I wanted them to stick to the more standard races for this game.
I am seeing a possible lack of up front hitting power and a possible lack of healing at higher levels, depending upon where the cleric goes. It looks like we have one primary figher and 4 support characters. This may or may not work depending upon how they play it. They are very experienced players, so they may be able to pull it off.
Any thoughts?
Part of me is leery to suggest this as an NPC (since it could turn out to be a vital role)...
I would suggest a ranger specializing in the archery combat style. That would add another decent combat-type to the party (and some long-distance artillery, which is a must). It would cover the need for someone who can work well out in the wilds, especially when the party leaves Sasserine in SWW. And it would provide some backup healing for the party once spellcasting levels are reached (but not so much as to be a nightmare to handle).
Just my two coppers - hope that helps!
Your Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
If you're missing anything, it's a rogue.
Definitely don't introduce a fighter (or variant) as an NPC -- it can too easily upstage the paladin and minimize contributions from the monk and cleric.
I also believe in making the players responsible for their own success/failures. Let them find out what they're missing the hard way, then multiclass or take Leadership at 6th level.
IMHO :)
Jack
You should your group should be fine.
My group consists of a
Elven Duskblade
Tiefling Rogue
Human Druid
Human Battle Sorceror (from UA)
My group has the same apparent weaknesses as yours - one front line fighter type and weak on healing. My group just finished Tides of Dread and so far, they haven't had any problems.
My group work together as a well oiled machine, have excellent problem solving skills and are sound tacticans so the AP has been a romp for them.... so far. If your group is more spontaneous vice deep thingking nor are they tactically sauve, they might have a harder go of it than my group.
The choice of druid was a stroke of genius as the druid has been the MVP since The Bullwug Gambit, being particularly strong during Here There Be Monsters and Tides of Tread. This may account for the relative easy time they have had since hitting the Isle of Dread.
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I am just getting ready to start the Savage Tide and my players have finalized their characters. For those of you that have run this adventure path, do I need to add in any additional NPC's to support this party based upon the following:
Aasimar Paladin
something Monk
Human Cleric (perhaps adding Ninja, she worships Xan Yae)
Human Bard
something SorcererI know this is not as exotic as some of the party compositions I saw in that thread, but that was by design. I wanted them to stick to the more standard races for this game.
I am seeing a possible lack of up front hitting power and a possible lack of healing at higher levels, depending upon where the cleric goes. It looks like we have one primary figher and 4 support characters. This may or may not work depending upon how they play it. They are very experienced players, so they may be able to pull it off.
Any thoughts?
In my game, we're a bit caster-light right now, so I let the bard take Cure Minor Wounds as one of his cantrips, which he's been using to great effect, stabilizing PC and NPC alike. Allowing your players to minorly tweak their characters in such a way will probably allow them the very slight edge they need.
My group has three very experienced, and one fairly experienced, players, and their knowledge of the game has served them well, even when their characters haven't. :)
Another option would be to add Action Points from Eberron or UA (Eberron is better). this lets my group be more adventurous in class combinations.
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If the cleric takes even 1 level of ninja your group should be fine. The Trapfinding skill is very useful and between the cleric, bard and paladin I think you should have plenty of healing. IMO it sounds like you have a balanced party. As far as ranged attacks go, the Bard can make a decent backup ranged attacker and even the Monk with the PHB2 Ki Blast feat can be a good ranged attacker. Its all in the feats and weapons they buy.
I'm sure it won't change what he/she wants to play, but I've found bards to be of marginal use.
IMO there's no function they dominate (even their interpersonal skills can be equalled by other classes); the bard is terminally locked into support roles, with little opportunity to shine.
Perhaps that player can be sold on the rogue class?
Perhaps that player can be sold on the rogue class?
Thanx to everyone for their responses, all were extremely helpful. I am going to see how they gell as a group and then decide if there are any holes. I am sure they will figure that out on their own without my interference.
As for the Bard, he seems set on the character so I will have to let you know how it goes. I have never seen a bard actually stay a bard as they usually spin off into some prestige class. He is the newest player and I am not sure why he settled on bard, but he seems determined so I shall let him blaze his own path and hopefully sing a few songs about his exploits.
I agree with the previous commentary on the usefulness of a rogue. The rogue in my party is advancing over everyone else(he hit second first and is now closing in on third), as he is doing a lot of stuff the others can't do (Oh and being a halfling rogue, he has twice killed a nasty with sneak attack damage who has then fallen on him, requiring a rescue).
The party I am running is going to Parrot Island tomorrow to meet Vanthus (or maybe not). The five of them work pretty well (Halfling Sorcerer, Halfling Rogue, Dwarf Cleric, Elf Ranger and Human Fighter[who visited his parents in Sasserine a couple of times]).
BTW, Good luck on the bard. I am seriously thinking about playing one as my next character (in the game on alternate weekends).
As for the Bard, he seems set on the character so I will have to let you know how it goes...
I expected as much. My players really don't listen to others' opinions on what they should play -- which is probably as it should be.
For what it's worth, I actually like the bard class. We've just found it suffers from the problem I mentioned above.
Also, I agree with the previous post -- rogues exhibit a versatility unmatched (IMO) by any other class. For me, they're the jack-of-all-trades the bard was meant to be.
Good luck,
Jack
The lack of healing shouldn't be a problem.
My group is in the middle of BG and consists of the following:
Half-Elf Bard
Human Fighter
Human Ranger
Dwarven Sorcerer
They've already decided that once they get back to Sasserine, they're going to pick up a wand of cure light wounds for the Bard to use. Your group could do something similar, with both the Paladin and Bard able to use the wand.
I'd say your biggest problem is the lack of a Rogue. The Bard and Monk could fill the scouting and other sneaky type skills, but you still need a trapfinder.
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Aasimar Paladin
something Monk
Human Cleric (perhaps adding Ninja, she worships Xan Yae)
Human Bard
something Sorcerer
Well this isn't too different from the compostion my group is running.
Human Paladin
Elf Monk
Halfling Rogue
Human Psycher/Wizard
Human Cleric
The major differences are that we don't have a Bard, We have a Psycher/Wizard, and we have a Rogue. I would say that you deffinately should look into getting a rogue in there. There arn't too many traps coming there way right off but a few. There are several locked chests as well so I would be helpful.
We have a Paladin in the group and he has been some MAJOR up front hitting power. Now he and the Monk have been traveling/adventuring partners for a while and work very well together with the flanking and the tumbling etc. Be careful with your paladin though. I'm sure he's gonna have plate male at some point. There could be ALOT of swiming going on. Our paladin has had to swim a few times and either has had to use potions of swimming OR take his armor off so he didn't sink like a rock. Now he has been knocked unconscious MANY times in this game so far. He usually goes below 0 once or twice a game.
I am just getting ready to start the Savage Tide and my players have finalized their characters. For those of you that have run this adventure path, do I need to add in any additional NPC's to support this party based upon the following:
Aasimar Paladin
something Monk
Human Cleric (perhaps adding Ninja, she worships Xan Yae)
Human Bard
something SorcererI know this is not as exotic as some of the party compositions I saw in that thread, but that was by design. I wanted them to stick to the more standard races for this game.
I am seeing a possible lack of up front hitting power and a possible lack of healing at higher levels, depending upon where the cleric goes. It looks like we have one primary figher and 4 support characters. This may or may not work depending upon how they play it. They are very experienced players, so they may be able to pull it off.
Any thoughts?
The paladin and monk between them can probably provide enough hitting power, with the bard, cleric, and sorcerer providing combat support, healing, and arcane spells. The paladin will probably need to be built to use less armor than normal (higher Dex than Str) because of the environment, at least until magic items like Plate Armor of the Deep become available.
The biggest lacks I see are in trapfinding and wilderness survival. The first can be compensated for by the cleric taking a level of ninja or the bard taking a level of rogue, but the second will start hurting them big in tSWW and HTBM. If you think they will need an additional NPC to cover those two areas, one of the passengers in tSWW can be a scout (Skald, perhaps).
Be careful with your paladin though. I'm sure he's gonna have plate male at some point. There could be ALOT of swiming going on. Our paladin has had to swim a few times and either has had to use potions of swimming OR take his armor off so he didn't sink like a rock. Now he has been knocked unconscious MANY times in this game so far. He usually goes below 0 once or twice a game.
HeHe...this is the part I am actually looking forward to :)
I'd say your biggest problem is the lack of a Rogue. The Bard and Monk could fill the scouting and other sneaky type skills, but you still need a trapfinder.
Interstingly enough, the sorcerer character is going to start off as a rogue and then switch to sorecerer at 2nd. This may help with any of the early trouble. With the cleric/ninja this should help balance the party.
Someone suggested a wand of Cure Light for the bard, this is a great idea and if they don't come up with this solution on their own, I will have to slip one in.
I suppose I am most concerned about the first encounter on the Blue Nixie. If they can somehow fall into their roles, it should go ok.
Good point about the scout Dragon Chess, I think I may have to slip in one of these in somewhere along the way.
Thanx for all your comments everyone, I feel better about the group now.
Interstingly enough, the sorcerer character is going to start off as a rogue and then switch to sorcerer at 2nd.
If the rogue/sorcerer is affiliated with the Seekers, then arcane trickster might make a good prestige class. If the character is more interested in combat (Zelkarune's Horns affiliation, perhaps), then daggerspell mage from Complete Adventurer is a better choice. Either prestige class allows the character to advance in rogue skills and spellcasting simultaneously, which will help round out the party.
Interstingly enough, the sorcerer character is going to start off as a rogue and then switch to sorcerer at 2nd.
...arcane trickster might make a good prestige class.
I'd never before looked at Arcane Trickster -- wow, a great recommendation.
The simplest progression would be Rog3/Sor6 before going into the PrC: a Rogue 3/Sorceror 6/Arcane Trickster 10 can do everything a Rogue 3/Sorceror 16 can, plus a good bit of thief-ish stuff (which raises balance questions in my mind).
Later,
Jack
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Arcane tricksters are pretty nasty, but you have to consider that they will always be several caster levels behind, so their save DC's will suffer.
What that usually means is that the spells they take tend to be less offensive (not so many fireballs, lightning bolts, ice storms, etc) and more "support" type spells where the saves aren't as vital. This is especially true of the sorcerer based tricksters, since their spell options are limited.
I've played one all the way to epic level, and I can tell you that I was definitely one of the least "broken" characters in the group. The Druid, in my estimation, was the winner in that regard.
You don't have to worry about the balance of the Arcane Trickster. A rogue 3/sorceror x-3 is virtually unplayable beyond around 8th level without it. Sorceror doesn't get enough skill points, hit points, or BAB points to maintain the rogue-stuff at vaguely effective levels, and each level of rogue sacrifices a caster level, which means the sorceror part will be radically weaker than a pure sorceror at every level.
Caster multiclasses are notoriously weak, and the proliferation of crossbreed prestige classes are a deliberate attempt to patch this problem.
Compared to a Sorceror 16, an Arcane Trickster with 16 levels will still be casting 6th level spells rather than 8th level spells, will not be able to penetrate SR except on the occasional lucky roll, will have fewer spells even at low levels. This is a huge disadvantage, and Arcane Trickster had best add enough to make up for it.
Thanks for the info. I'm liking the Arcane Trickster enough to make my next character one.
Arcane tricksters are pretty nasty, but you have to consider that they will always be several caster levels behind
That's where the Practiced Spellcaster feat comes in handy. You won't be able to cast more/higher level spells, but you can cast them at a caster level equal to your character level (as long as you have no more than 4 non-caster levels). For nasty, go Rogue 1/Sorcerer 5/Daggerspell Mage 10/Arcane Trickster 4. Double Daggercast plus Impromptu Sneak Attack plus Daggerspell Flurry (plus Arcane Strike if you want to get really obscene and your DM allows it). Duskblades eat your hearts out.