so i DM this group of people and I'm running age of worms but the guys go so slow that its been two months and they are halfway thru the first dungeon. now, i know some times its just slow but this is nuts. they all want to go faster to but just cant seam to do it. some times they seam bored but they say its fun so what do i do?
i want to run a fun game but i cant run the same age of worms thing for three years. i think i need to keep them focused on the game but its a published adventure and its a great one. have you guys ever had a group that was just to slow?
i think i ranted a bit here but so what. if you have any ideas that would be great. thanks!
Well--First ID where the problem lies. Here are a few common causes:
1) slow combat
2) lotsa ingame roleplaying
3) Roleplaying every single trip to the store to buy rope, lanters ect
4) out of game screwing around/external disctactions (TV/nonplaying people in the room/cellphones/off topic conversations)
Most likely it's mainly 1 and 4.
So... there are many articles written on keeping combat running more quickly. Go find those. Screwing around is trickier. Is your group there to GAME or is it more of a hangout thing? If so and everyone likes it that way there may not be much to do about it. Have a talk with the players and get a feel for the direction and tone they want at the table. Is that tone diffrent than what you have now? Come up with group decisions on what to do about it if what the group wants is diffrent than what you end up with.
Also I have found that shorter sessions may work out better. If everyone knows that they have 4 hours to game, they may be able to stay more focused. I have seen groups get more done in a 4-5 hr session then a marathon 12 to 12 saturday session.
As a DM you can do several things to speed up decision making, you may want to be more assertive, using statements like:
"ok its now 12:oo- what do your characters plan on doing with the afternoon, say untill about six" then go around the table asking each player thier plans. After the plan has been stated, you can more easily group up PC's and deal with thier actions fo r the afternoon.
MAybe ID the problem and come back to the board with more specific info--
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I played a couple games with these guys. I knew the dm for a long time, but not these players. They'd try to make these long, drawn out plans for everything. So I'd wait until the dm got that glazed look in his eyes and say, "can I do something?" He'd say, "no." So I'd say, "tell me when I can do something, so I don't bug you." So he'd say, "okay, NOW you can do something." So I say, "I charge the orcs, wailing an ancient dwarven battle hymn." I'd be the logjam breaker, and he wouldn't slaughter my character...
Ahhh... that. As the DM-- you can assume that the players making the long plans at "the door" is happening in real time--- ie 1 min real time = 1 min game time. Then have he Bad guys roll listen checks every so often. Sooner or later the Baddies will hear / detect the PC's. Nothing breaks up long drawn out metagame planning sessions faster than:
DM "you take 5 points of damage as an arrow suddenly sprouts from your back"
PLayer "what-- but i didn't even roll inititave"
DM "I know"
Player "but i dint even roll a listen check"
DM " i rolled it for you, SECRETLY, as you were huddled by the door planning your next move, it seems you were discovered... now roll for initiave"
Ahhh... that. As the DM-- you can assume that the players making the long plans at "the door" is happening in real time--- ie 1 min real time = 1 min game time. Then have he Bad guys roll listen checks every so often. Sooner or later the Baddies will hear / detect the PC's. Nothing breaks up long drawn out metagame planning sessions faster than:
DM "you take 5 points of damage as an arrow suddenly sprouts from your back"
PLayer "what-- but i didn't even roll inititave"
DM "I know"
Player "but i dint even roll a listen check"
DM " i rolled it for you, SECRETLY, as you were huddled by the door planning your next move, it seems you were discovered... now roll for initiave"
I do this and have condidtioned the players. I just start rolling dice and they move to the point of action.
How many players are there at your table? In my experience, if you have more than 4-6 characters/players things bog down considerably, as you as a DM cannot pay attention to everyone, so there are some players leading the action, and the rest wanders off with their thoughts or physically, thus disturbing the game (maybe with off-topic talking).
What I start doing in combat, if no one thinks ahead of his turn what to do and then starts thinking long for tacticts when his initiative is on, I count down loudly from 10, you will see how quickly the player decides on what to do (works every time;-). But don't be too harsh especially with novice players, if the player says, I cast this spell, now how does it work, he should have the time to look it up.
If it is not combat, but planing, give your players some time to plan, but if they just discuss the same point all over again, just say: "so now, what do you do" and repeat this in shorter and shorter times. One warning: if your players are forced to act by you and they get a horrible beating, they will insist on planing even more next time, so build up their confidence in their ability and in yours not being their enemy building too difficult encounters. And if nothing helps, bring the action to them either by having the enemies discover them, or by wandering monsters.
Sorry I also started ranting, but I hope it helps.
Well--First ID where the problem lies. Here are a few common causes:
1) slow combat
2) lotsa ingame roleplaying
3) Roleplaying every single trip to the store to buy rope, lanters ect
4) out of game screwing around/external disctactions (TV/nonplaying people in the room/cellphones/off topic conversations)Most likely it's mainly 1 and 4.
So... there are many articles written on keeping combat running more quickly. Go find those. Screwing around is trickier. Is your group there to GAME or is it more of a hangout thing? If so and everyone likes it that way there may not be much to do about it. Have a talk with the players and get a feel for the direction and tone they want at the table. Is that tone diffrent than what you have now? Come up with group decisions on what to do about it if what the group wants is diffrent than what you end up with.Also I have found that shorter sessions may work out better. If everyone knows that they have 4 hours to game, they may be able to stay more focused. I have seen groups get more done in a 4-5 hr session then a marathon 12 to 12 saturday session.
As a DM you can do several things to speed up decision making, you may want to be more assertive, using statements like:
"ok its now 12:oo- what do your characters plan on doing with the afternoon, say untill about six" then go around the table asking each player thier plans. After the plan has been stated, you can more easily group up PC's and deal with thier actions fo r the afternoon.MAybe ID the problem and come back to the board with more specific info--
(dwarflord)
OK, first of you know this stuff way to good,those 4 things are totally spot on.
second you are correct about 1 & 2.
third I think one bigy is that some players want to role play, some to try this new character and some to hang with the group and goof around. so i think i can tell the goofy ones to chill it in my games because i made it clear i would kick kids out if it came to it. then its just a question of speeding up combat and I'm all over it. now that the group is down to 4 from 7 it wont be a problem.
thanks for your help, buy the way is there a proven method of getting kids to focus on the game, not a in game thing but out side it. i think some times the game is engaging but they start fooling and then, well, you have been there.
so thanks again
hey belfur, so you did rant a bit but go a head, i did from the start.
so i think you are rite but i also think that the issue is out of game. in game some people make slow choices but its not that bad. if my games went slow because the characters went slow that would be OK, at least some time, but its stuff outside the game, you know what i mean? any way thanks for the input, i just might have to use that count to 10 thing some time so thanks again.
Don't worry about it... Some rooms may just seem like an ordinary event to you, but for the players even an empty room with a chest full of nothings in it is still excititng.
Sometimes, for a DM, things may seem to be going slow; That's because you know the WHOLE exciting story of what's comming. But the players don't, so even messing with an empty chest is "fun" depending on the point of view.
So if the players don't seem bothered with it, don't be.
Ultradan
yep, hehe once again; I agree with Ultradan, dont worry about it. Throw out any preconcieved ideas about how far into an adventure you think your party should get in any given time; just be prepared so your not causing the hold up and let them do their thing; have fun. The adventure really needs to unfold at thier pace and if they want to search a lot more or have a lot more pc or npc interaction rather than race through an adventure; let em.
Don't worry about it... Some rooms may just seem like an ordinary event to you, but for the players even an empty room with a chest full of nothings in it is still excititng.
Sometimes, for a DM, things may seem to be going slow; That's because you know the WHOLE exciting story of what's comming. But the players don't, so even messing with an empty chest is "fun" depending on the point of view.
So if the players don't seem bothered with it, don't be.
Ultradan
(Dwarflord)
well, thanks for your response but some players think its way to slow, at this rate we will finish Age of Worms in about three years and no one can commit to that so thanks for your two cents but i disagree, the game has to be fun for the DM to or whats the point?
have you noticed any particular things that are slowing down the adventure; are they spending a lot of time healing or studing for spells due to many wandering monster attacks or lots of traps or something like that? It shouldn't be too hard after a couple months to identify what things you can change, like wandering monsters, and what things you shouldn't like planned encounters.
yep, hehe once again; I agree with Ultradan, dont worry about it. Throw out any preconcieved ideas about how far into an adventure you think your party should get in any given time; just be prepared so your not causing the hold up and let them do their thing; have fun. The adventure really needs to unfold at thier pace and if they want to search a lot more or have a lot more pc or npc interaction rather than race through an adventure; let em.
Dwarflord
look guys, if all the players are having fun and engaged in the game, perfect. if they are not paying attention and are bored and its a (lets assume) well run AoW adventure, that's a problem, OK? any one disagree with me? if so let me know.
have you noticed any particular things that are slowing down the adventure; are they spending a lot of time healing or studing for spells due to many wandering monster attacks or lots of traps or something like that? It shouldn't be too hard after a couple months to identify what things you can change, like wandering monsters, and what things you shouldn't like planned encounters.
Dwarflord
Look guys, its not my ****ing DMing or the adventure, its the goofing around, got it, i know "some time its just the DMs fault" but this is different, OK? get it?
no need to be rude; am just asking a few probing question to help figure it out. If the pc's are really slow and it is a problem, well, their has to be a reason. Are they new players that don't own the right books; or dont know their spells, or dont know their abilities or is their a lot of non game related side talk that holds up the game? You seem to be a bit frustrated, that might be showing in your gm style also. I really could write a very long list of little things that can slow down gaming, but it is only important if you and your players think these things are problems. Here is a short one:
Does your group have a leader?
Does your group have standard marching orders?
Does your group have a standard way to set up camp at night?
Does your group have a standard night watch order?
Does the group follow the leader; does the leader lead and arbitrate group descisions, and make or waffle the hard ones?
If your rogue is spending a lot of group time can you have him give you a list of 50 pre rolls for skills to just insert when needed?
Does your group spend a lot of time arguing? if they just take along time to make a descision or like to discuss things a lot this is not a problem; arguing can be.
Are you doing a lot of side roleplay away from the group of what other shouldnt hear or not participate in?
Is the group underpowered for the adventure?
maybe this will help. Goofing around is meaningless which means it tells us nothing; what is goofing around specifically.
maybe this will help. Goofing around is meaningless which means it tells us nothing; what is goofing around specifically.
Dwarflord
specifically, goofing around is writing on other peoples character sheets when they check the pizza, arguing about computer games, listing to that kids new CD, some music video, just dumb stuff like that. i tell them to stop but someone thinks he has a really funny joke and it just starts again.i was a little harsh responding to you guys, sorry, but the adventure has good structure and i know they would love it if they were paying attention. but they goof of, charge into combat without working together, get killed, and go back to goofing.
by the way, i don't kill PCs but if they don't work together they will probably die, that's fair rite?
In my group, we sometimes start talking about other stuff (jokes, work, family)... But if everyone's interested in the small talk, who am I to stop it? It's a social game of interacion, is it not? I mean, you can play poker and talk about something else, right?
Sure, it helps the flow of the story when everyone's concentrating on it... But my guess is, they're just happy to be there to see you and the other players. Maybe you're missing the point of having your friends over.
I DM because I like it. Because I like having my friends over and spending the afternoon with them. If it means an occasionnal detour filled with anectdotes and laughter, then so be it.
Ultradan
yep, me too. we get together to have fun; keep it a party atmosphere; everybody brings food and drinks; we game and tell stories and joke; is a good time; sometimes there is serious gaming; sometimes there is more joking and stuff; its all good. mostly peeps want to blow off steam the first hour or so, and usually a few hours in we are down to serious gaming and the nitty gritty. Sounds to me like you have a fairly normal group. If you only played for three or four hours I can see how this would be frustrating; but as we game for six to eight losing and hour cutting up and joking really doesnt seem to matter to much.
maybe this will help. Goofing around is meaningless which means it tells us nothing; what is goofing around specifically.Dwarflord
specifically, goofing around is writing on other peoples character sheets when they check the pizza, arguing about computer games, listing to that kids new CD, some music video, just dumb stuff like that. i tell them to stop but someone thinks he has a really funny joke and it just starts again.
i was a little harsh responding to you guys, sorry, but the adventure has good structure and i know they would love it if they were paying attention. but they goof of, charge into combat without working together, get killed, and go back to goofing.
by the way, i don't kill PCs but if they don't work together they will probably die, that's fair rite?
You have to take control. Whether it's "what's said at the table goes at the table" meaning there is no out of character and the consequences come accordingly. If they're being loud and obnoxious, imagine where they are and what they're doing inside the game. If a careless group of adventurers were dilly dallying along in a Cave of Doom regailing the tales of yore at 100 decibles, well, the entire cave's denizens would be on top of them. Ad lib a few traps, or maybe the Cave of Doom is in bad shape and the constant jabbering looses stalactites and other debri from above.
In an extreme case, you have to find a new group, replace players, don't ask players back, even just "take your ball and go home." If they're interested, they'll shape up.
Remember it's your game, if you're not having fun, take the proper steps to make it fun. If you're willing to commit to it they will too, but the DM is a god, to rouse the wrath of a god is never good. You need to make them believe you're a god.
How old are these guys? It sounds like you're playing with a bunch of 12 year olds.
If these guys are your buds and you're all just having fun then fine, but it sounds more like you're baby sitting a bunch of kids- are you getting paid for this gig?
If you guys aren't that tight and these guys are just screwing around the whole time then tell them to shape up or ship out, and stick to it. You don't need to put up with that crap. On the other hand if they're your close friends it's a bit more touchy.
Not me, dude. 100% focus. Jokers get a wandering monster roll. DIE DIE JOKER!!!
LOL Funny, but so true!
When I DM a game I spend a lot of time planning it. Reading the dungeon, tailoring it to fit my players' style of play, deleting/ adding stuff, etc. I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some dink ruin my hard work. If one or more of your players is really being obnoxiously disruptive, send a message and kill a character. Waste no time in this and go for shock value to get their attention. This is an extreme response to an extreme dilemma. Just don't do it all the time or it becomes useless.
The advice already given here is good and I'd go with that. If you gotta be a bit of a control freak to get your game on track then so be it, just don't get too carried away. You still want to enjoy the game after all.
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i want to run a fun game but i cant run the same age of worms thing for three years. i think i need to keep them focused on the game but its a published adventure and its a great one. have you guys ever had a group that was just to slow?
You and your players may need to decide how long a campaign you are all willing to commit to. I don't know how long your games usually run for, how often you get to play etc, but I know my own group. I would estimate it would take them 2-4 sessions (so thats 2-4 months) to finish Whispering Cairn, and something like 2 years minimum (probably longer, like 3 years) to finish the campaign.
Chances are its going to be a fairly long campaign for your group too, even if they do manage to speed up their style of play.
If you guys don't want a long running campaign, then perhaps an AP like Age of Worms isnt for you. That doesnt mean you can't still use a number of the adventures within ir. But then, if you get to play a lot more than I do, and can speed your group up, it might work out.
OK-- dwarflord- you were getting a bit touchy there for a min, glad you reeled it back in. Everyone here is chippin in their 2 cents to help you. Nobody is accusing you of being a crappy DM.
I agree about the threads that suggest taking control of your table.
I have a gavel.
................Serously. I do.
Yes, your players have to decide, what they want; if they want socializing(sp?), maybe switch to board games, there off-topic discussion does not disturb most of the time. If they agree, yes we are sometimes a bunch of guys with hornets in their trousers, but we want to change, that is a good start: make them put away everything disturbing: like mobile phones, gameboy, unecessary game books, CDs and so on. Look for a location for playing where there is as little diversion as possible (so, if there is no CD player, then they cannot listen to CDs). On the other hand: like said before, give them time to talk about off-topic stuff, maybe in the beginning, while everyone is finishing his Pizza, doing leveling, buying stuff etc. Then make clear: now we start. Maybe make the players recount last time's events, so its them doing the talking and they start focusing on the game; and they won't interrupt themselves, right?
If there are people picking on each other (by writing on documents, etc.) do it like a teacher: seperate them! Of course only before they sit down in the beginning.
These are just some ideas, how to change things, I wish you, that your players really want to play D&D and are sensible enough, what is necessary for this.
Someone said, just leave: maybe you should do this one time and do not offer to play again (but without any grudge, if they are your friends, just meet to do something else), if they really want to play, they will come to you (at least then you know, they enjoy D&D by itself).
Well here we are again ranting, but I hope there is enough crunch in it for you.
... When I DM a game I spend a lot of time planning it. Reading the dungeon, tailoring it to fit my players' style of play, deleting/ adding stuff, etc. I'll be damned if I'm gonna let some dink ruin my hard work...
Don't assume that I don't do the same to get ready for a game. I'm saying that even though the DM prepares the session, it's still everyone's game. Some sessions are very quiet and tactical, and the story advances well... Others are more funny with players (and DM) joking around), and the story developes slower.
You have to be at ease with what's going on in front of you and realize that if the players seem to be having a good time, then you're work is done. In my opinion, if you DM too tight, you're killing the fun.
Ultradan
yep; the table rules are important; my group for example has given me 5 patterns of marching order; they just tell me which at which time they are using, for example; and have a few different patterns for opening doors and whatnot so all this mundane stuff doesnt hold it up.
The player who is the leader of the group should also help moderate excessive talk about unrated things; if your a young group this is probably hopeless, but most adults can probably moderate their own behavior; I usually just start picking up dice and rolling them or reach for a monster manual and my group quiets down and starts saying things like they are checking their gear; so and so is on guard; try not to be sullen, nobody wants to play with a gastopo gm or feel like they are in the army and have to sit up straight and get their marching order; just have a reasonable non heated discussion with them where you can all discuss your playing goals to make sure your all on the same wavelength.
try this; have one of them gm a pick up module, just to give you a break, that should only take a few hours; run the guys provided with the module; watch how it goes and see what happens; might be a good learning tool; be interesting if the same thing happens or the group is more cohesive. A gm/player fit is like shoes; sure any work but not all of them are comfortable and you might not like the style. I think it would be helpful if you watched the group from a player perspective then took that back to your gming; would also help a player get a grasp of what a gm does to prepare for a game.
OK-- dwarflord- you were getting a bit touchy there for a min, glad you reeled it back in. Everyone here is chippin in their 2 cents to help you. Nobody is accusing you of being a crappy DM.
I agree about the threads that suggest taking control of your table.
I have a gavel.
................Serously. I do.
thanks joshua for your help.
i cant respond to often because i don't have the Internet at my house so this is a bit late, but every ones help was great.if you want to add more stuff you should start a new thread, OK? any way my group got together again and it was a bit better, i think that less time was spent fooling so that was good, i think the rout of the problem was and is peoples motives, some really want to play and some are less interested in the game, because we are all friends out side the game it will be tricky to change this but a will with time.
i still haven't read every ones advice but ill get to it some time soon.
thanks guys!
Dwarflord
I say let them have their fun. From how you describe it, it seems like the only downer to the playing is that it's taking too long to get along the story.
I say you cut out half the encounters and give double XP for the rest. In Whispering Cairn, fer instance, there's no extra drama in fighting the water elemental AND THEN an underwater ghoul. Ditch the elemental ('cause the ghoul brings some backstory that's worth knowing) and give them double XP for defeating the ghoul.
In the end, your slow group will have all the fun of goofing off while still advancing thru the levels and adventures at the same pace as a more focused group.
That's my take on it, anyways.
Oh, and make sure if you do cut an encounter, the party somehow finds the treasure they would've gotten if they'd actually defeated it. Earned magic items are assumed when generating threats scales for upper level monsters. So a group getting half the magic items they should be for their level won't be as competetive.
In my group, we sometimes start talking about other stuff (jokes, work, family)... But if everyone's interested in the small talk, who am I to stop it? It's a social game of interacion, is it not? I mean, you can play poker and talk about something else, right?
Sure, it helps the flow of the story when everyone's concentrating on it... But my guess is, they're just happy to be there to see you and the other players. Maybe you're missing the point of having your friends over.
I DM because I like it. Because I like having my friends over and spending the afternoon with them. If it means an occasionnal detour filled with anectdotes and laughter, then so be it.
Ultradan
Sure - but then you have not reached the point where your asking for advice on how to control this sort of thing. I mean I agree with you in this regard but it is a delicate balance. I try and keep an eye on my players - when only a few of them are being amused I start laying down the hammer to speed them up. It's something of an issue in my campaign as the players don't like "DM Interference" in their affairs and the worst offenders often don't distinguish between DM interference to keep every one involved and DM interference where it does not belong. The key being whether everyone at the table (or at least almost everyone) is being entertained compared to whether only a handful of players are being engaged while the rest of the players are growing bored.