Does anyone know of alterative character creation methods other than the ones find in the DMG that doesn’t us dice. Like another point system or a higher amount of points beyond 32 for even stronger characters.
You can keep adding points to the point buy clear on up to 96, which gets you straight 18s. You can also do a straight "1 for 1" point buy in which you don't increase the point cost for higher ability scores. If you didn't adjust the the points to compensate, that would lead to significantly more powerful characters, obviously, but if you don't mind everybody starting off with an 18 in something it wouldn't be too bad.
The only other non-random way to do it that I can think of (beyond the obvious -- an assigned array of scores) is one that I've considered using, and likely will if I can ever get a group I trust to be reasonable with it. "Ok, people. You know what ability scores you'll need to have the character you want and be effective. Take that, and try to maintain a balance of power within the party."
Personally, after a whole lot of experimentation, I've settled on 28 point-buy as my method of choice. However...
1) Each player rolls 4d6, and drops the lowest, once only. If there are fewer than six players, someone needs to roll twice. I'm not sure how it works with more than six players.
Having gotten six stats this way, those become the 'standard array' for the group, which everyone then uses.
2) At one time, I had little sheets with four columns on them. The first had the standard array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8), the second had another array of six stats with a total net modifier of +5. The third column had _seven_ stats, where the best six had a total net modifier of +6. The fourth had six stats, with a total net modifier of +7.
Players then chose any one of the columns for their own use. If they used the first or second column, they could place the stats in any order. If they chose the fourth column, they had to use the stats in order.
If they chose the third column, they could make one swap of two stats, and drop any one stat (or, drop and then swap). They had to use whatever was left in order.
I had about twenty such sheets, which players chose at random.
In the end, though, I discarded that system as too complex for too little gain.
3) I've heard of groups that have 'stat auctions'. I'm not sure quite how they work, though.
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For STAP, I switched to an alternative point-buy system with also a few other changes :
- 78 points to put in the 6 caracteristics (i.e. average of 13) with no score under 6, no score above 18 before applying racial traits (my players did not really min/max their PCs : I have mature players !) : it means if you want an 18, you need an 8,
- I gave 8 bonus skill points to everybody (just to have a few knowledge and charisma-based skills in the group) at 1st level, and I'll give them 2 bonus points at each level,
- I gave them a bonus feat at 1st level according to their Sasserine district or according to their background,
- for starting gold, they rolled the dice : they kept results above average, and I gave them average if it was under.
All in all, I don't have munchkin PCs (the cleric having a high charisma has only 10 in dex and 12 both in constitution and strength, as an example).
I think it's a good system when you play with mature players, because you don't have very different characters according to dice results, and everybody is quite balanced...
Does anyone know of alterative character creation methods other than the ones find in the DMG that doesn’t us dice. Like another point system or a higher amount of points beyond 32 for even stronger characters.
I like the idea of a " point buy " for attributes in D&D, but so far have found the 'official' rules for doing so utterly unsatisfactory. It isn't a matter of powergaming per se, so much as it utterly detracts from the personal, primary method I've used to get a feel for the personality behind the character sheets : the random generation of attributes. With the assign-a-stat method in 3rd ed., it is harder, so I retain the original order rolled mentally when figuring the character's personality - which often goes hand in hand to me for determining a character's race - THEN assign ability scores to match.
Still, every now and again I am so sorely tempted to break out Unearthed Arcana from 1st edition and use those rules for rolling attributes. I will not likely forget the MU I rolled up with those rules that wound up with an 18 STR and about a 14 or 15 INT ... rolled 3d6 straight for STR and 9d6 (keep the best 3) for INT ... *that* was a character whom I didn't have to wait to figure up a name and personality for over the course of several to many levels of advancement. Sadly, he found death at the business end of several volleys of giant-hurled boulders...
Skills and Powers one good thing for D&D was a nod at the concept of " getting something for RP " in official rules. As I understand it, for all practical purposes, there simply are no significant 'official' guidelines for good RP of one's characters in D&D - granted, never really have been - and thus ... I find myself going off on a serious tangent from the original post.
Back to topic : I've not found an alternate method of creating characters that works well in 3rd edition. It is the primary reason I do not play Living Greyhawk (there are others, but the lousy point-buy system is utterly unappealing). It would be a primary reason not to play in any tournament/convention gameplay that stipulated such rules for character creation. Even after 25 years' time playing the game, my personal experience to this day derives the greatest satisfaction from randomly generated character creation.
Now, if they had a true point-buy system (which belongs to HERO System and GURPS thusfar in my experience), that would be a whole different ballgame. And might very well utterly wreck the game ... I'm not too sure that such a thing for D&D would go over very well ... or, it could be the best thing for the game since the inception of 3rd edition.
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Number the stats from 1-6, with str=1, dex=2, etc. Start with 7 in all stats roll 26-36 d6s. whatever number shows on each die is a point in that stat. I believe that 30ish dice gives an average of 12.5 for each ability. You need to figure out what to do if someone rolls a bunch of one number (enough to bring their score over 18) whether you want to allow higher than 18s or rerolls of anything over the 18 "cap". I personally allow over 18's to stay. other stats take the hit anyway. I can dig up more info on this system if you would like me to. I think I found it on a thread here or over at WotC about a year ago, but I printed it out.
FH
My group has, for many years now, used a system that allows you to spread 75 points as you see fit. although they can munchkin their characters they don't and everyone is happy. Nobody is better than the rest, ability wise and the PC's are only 3 points ahead of the elite array (15,14,13,12,10 and 8 = 72)
I have a friend who is proposing basing all the PC's for his new campaign off the Elite array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8). You could do this and then add a limited pool of points to spend on a 1-for-1 basis (say 4-8?) to maintain party balance while keeping it challenging.
Edit: the poster above beat me to it, and slightly more elegantly.
Thanks for the help. There are some good ideas. I like the point system based of the elite arry the best so far.
Hm.. methods of character creation that don't involve dice or point-buy?
You could play darts, renumbering the dart board to generate scores between 3 and 18...
Throw a bunch of playing cards on the ground and have the players grab up 12 each, 1 at a time as quick as possible. Standard limit of scores between 3 and 18 applies, but otherwise they can pick and choose how to combine them. Ace = 1, Jack = 11, Queen = 12, King = 13. Just make sure this isn't your favorite pack of cards - this could get violent.
Start with a base of 10 in each stat. Choose two stats to be "good" and two to be "poor." Good stats get +2, Poor stats get -2. Then, have the DM come up with a list of questions about your character's childhood with 4 answers for each question, each answer altering your scores slightly (+2 to one stat, -2 to another). This idea is from the rogue-like game ADOM.
No answering to the question, but at one point I did some calculations on different dice combinations to roll the stats, what is the most probable value and how probable are the extreme values...
Generally adding dice makes medium values more probable, so for example 4d4+2 has spread of 6-18 with 12 as median and extremes are less common than in 3d6. 5d4+2, drop the smallest die has same spread, median goes a bit higher (so all characters are relatively tough) but having 18 in stat is still uncommon.
On the other hand, with 2d8+2 probabilities fall on broader curve. Or for really wild, how about d12+6?
With a very experienced (and usually story oriented) group you can try the "choose your own stats" variation of character generation. Let everyone create the character they want to play. Balance any inequalities within the game (have the straight 18 guy have a target on his back, unless he deliberately underplays his character).
Me-Sits down at the table: Thanks for coming guys, I think we're gonna have a great time!! Here ya go!!"
Them- "What're these?"
Me- "Your characters silly. Roll init and you get to pick in order without looking."
Them" ........"
Actually worked really well. YMMV...
Me-Sits down at the table: Thanks for coming guys, I think we're gonna have a great time!! Here ya go!!"
Them- "What're these?"
Me- "Your characters silly. Roll init and you get to pick in order without looking."
Them" ........"Actually worked really well. YMMV...
in a game i was playing in before now we sent a character idea to the DM and he assigned stats accordingly. you have to watch out for munchkins but a mature group should manage ok
Kendrik
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Oh, yes, I'm reminded of one more I've seen but never tried. You need a deck of cards, but take out all the cards numbered 7 and above (so only the Aces through 6's are left).
The player shuffles the cards, and deals out six hands of four cards each. Turn them over, discard the lowest card from each hand, and there are your six ability scores.
in a game i was playing in before now we sent a character idea to the DM and he assigned stats accordingly. you have to watch out for munchkins but a mature group should manage ok
I have done that too and for my experience it works fine though I have only seen that done in GURPS...point-buy limits the worst munchkinism.
And of course good DM might sneak in some curious things which might get revealed in the middle of the campaign...in one campaign which was rather rule- and especially roll-light the players never even got to see their character sheets, only information about their characters they had was the original idea pitch. There was of course then the possibility of self-delusion like someone who complains how easily she gets sick and how everything hurts so much (with CON 17) or someone who always knows what to do (with INT 9/WIS 7)...or how about a latent psionic power?And in one one-shot we played pre-generated randomly distributed characters (though DM later commented that luck was on our side and all of us did get characters we were able to play well).
here's how i do it IMC:
everyone gets this set of stats: 18, 17, 15, 13, 12, 11. this is pre racial ability mods.
wizards and sorcerers get d6 hit dice/level because d4 sucks. sorcerers go up in magic levels one level higher on the chart than they actually are. so a 1st level sorc. uses the 2nd level on the chart for spells known and uses per day.
fighters get 3 bonus class skills and 4+int/level
all classes that get 2+int skill points go up to 4+int.
All feats that grant a bonus in certain skills such as negotiator become class skills for that PC, however you must have one or the other as a class skill prior to taking the feat.
everyone starts out with toughness as a bonus feat.
every PC starts out with 500 gp in goods
this seems to have worked out since 3.5 came out and it works because i can balance the game with how i and my players like to play. i run a high powered action adventure style swords and sorcery type of game and this generation method seems to work perfectly for all involved.
A way to do it:
Assign a dice pool relative to power. For example, the average way of rolling is roll 4 and keep the best 3. This means players will roll 24 total dice, keeping the best 18. So this would be the "24 dice" level.
When PCs are generating stats, on each stat they may roll any number of dice, and keep up to 3; whatever amout of dice they choose to roll is removed.
<For example> if I wanted a good strength, I would roll 6 dice, and keep the best three. If I was less worried about intelligence, I could roll 2 and keep them both. After rolling these two stats, I have rolled 8 dice; taken from 24, this leaves 16 dice to roll for the other stats. I might split them evenly, 4 a stat, keeping the 3 highest on each.
This means I keep 3 dice, or less, but never more than three. The stats would still be random, but probability of good scores in given stats is better. And you could up the power level by giving more total dice.
An auction:
There are 6 players, and thus a total of 36 stats. So I roll/choose 36 values from 3-18. I then give players a fund of points. I then read off a value, and the players may bid their points to receive this value. Whoever wins gets the stat, and the points are deducted. So a player wanting high stats in a few could have what he wants vis-a-vis the player with a need for balanced stats in many. And less 18s are prevalent.
Just a few ideas.
No answering to the question, but at one point I did some calculations on different dice combinations to roll the stats, what is the most probable value and how probable are the extreme values...
Generally adding dice makes medium values more probable, so for example 4d4+2 has spread of 6-18 with 12 as median and extremes are less common than in 3d6. 5d4+2, drop the smallest die has same spread, median goes a bit higher (so all characters are relatively tough) but having 18 in stat is still uncommon.
On the other hand, with 2d8+2 probabilities fall on broader curve. Or for really wild, how about d12+6?
I have adopted using 3d6 roll twice and take the better roll for generating relavant NPCs. It gives a broad middle range of abilities but is not as good as the 4d6 of PCs.