What happens if there is no reasonable way for the bullywugs to beat the PCs to Vanderboren Manor?
I use the stormwrack rules for naval travel, and the group got really good rolls for weather: clear skies, warm weather, and strong winds the whole way. It resulted in them getting there in a little more than 1 day. There's really no way the Bullywugs could beat them there, even with their marshland movement abilities.
So what should I do? Should I turn this chunk of the adventure into a sort of "tour of the manor" looking for good places to hold off an attack, followed by fighting with the Jade Ravens to hold off the entire bullywug tribe? Personally, I think that sounds kind of cool, and would make for an interesting spin on the normally passive-reactive nature of the adventures.
Ultimately, where does the line between railroading and guiding end? If the PCs do well, where is the line of "too well" drawn? How sacred should the plot be held to letting the PCs actually have control over their destiny?
What happens if there is no reasonable way for the bullywugs to beat the PCs to Vanderboren Manor?
I use the stormwrack rules for naval travel, and the group got really good rolls for weather: clear skies, warm weather, and strong winds the whole way. It resulted in them getting there in a little more than 1 day. There's really no way the Bullywugs could beat them there, even with their marshland movement abilities.
So what should I do? Should I turn this chunk of the adventure into a sort of "tour of the manor" looking for good places to hold off an attack, followed by fighting with the Jade Ravens to hold off the entire bullywug tribe? Personally, I think that sounds kind of cool, and would make for an interesting spin on the normally passive-reactive nature of the adventures.
Ultimately, where does the line between railroading and guiding end? If the PCs do well, where is the line of "too well" drawn? How sacred should the plot be held to letting the PCs actually have control over their destiny?
2 options:
1. You can say that the pirate lieutenant and the bullywugs took a pinnace or other such small craft with a sail instead of traveling by land. (This is actually much more reasonable than traveling through the swamps anyway).
2. You could have the party rush back through the festival, encountering all of the interesting encounters there, only to find that Lavinia is safe and sound in her mansion. The Bullywugs attack several days later. If the PCs have maintained a tight guard on the mansion, perhaps alternating watch duties with the Jade Ravens, you can have the Bullywugs attack on their watch, in the middle of the night. If the PCs think it's a false alarm and go about their business in the city, then have the Bullywugs attack while they're out and run the scenario as written.
Either way, they'll gain points with Lavinia for a successful defense or a successful rescue.
Creative Director
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Unless you reveal to the PCs when the half-orc and the bullywugs left for Sasserine, there's no reason that they can't beat the PCs to the manor. If the PCs make it back quickly, you can simply assume that the bullywugs left earlier than the adventure says. Likewise, if the PCs take days to clear out the cove, you can assume the bullywugs are late and left much later than the adventure says.
That said, if you want the PCs to beat the bullywugs to the manor, the last half of the adventure can instead turn into a siege rather than a Die Hard type scenario, with the PCs trying to defend the manor from being invaded by bullywugs.
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Unless you reveal to the PCs when the half-orc and the bullywugs left for Sasserine, there's no reason that they can't beat the PCs to the manor. If the PCs make it back quickly, you can simply assume that the bullywugs left earlier than the adventure says. Likewise, if the PCs take days to clear out the cove, you can assume the bullywugs are late and left much later than the adventure says.
Commonly known as railroading.
That said, if you want the PCs to beat the bullywugs to the manor, the last half of the adventure can instead turn into a siege rather than a Die Hard type scenario, with the PCs trying to defend the manor from being invaded by bullywugs.
Commonly known as good DMing.
Reebo
>> Commonly known as railroading.
Oh, pooh. The whole "railroading" argument has been discussed many times, get over it. The DM rolled well on the weather table, we're not nerfing the PCs actions.
If you want to run a seige, go for it. Otherwise I'd take James' recommendation.
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Unless you reveal to the PCs when the half-orc and the bullywugs left for Sasserine, there's no reason that they can't beat the PCs to the manor. If the PCs make it back quickly, you can simply assume that the bullywugs left earlier than the adventure says. Likewise, if the PCs take days to clear out the cove, you can assume the bullywugs are late and left much later than the adventure says.Commonly known as railroading. [...]
The only person who can tell the PCs when Drevoraz left has an Int of 8 and has been fighting for her life for some time. In that state, she's not exactly a credible witness.
Does it state anywhere how long it takes Drevoraz to get back to Sasserine once he leaves Kraken's Cove? I looked but can't seem to find anything.
I just had the bullywugs be nearer Sasserine and the shaman has a scroll with Travel Via Plants (x2). Drevoraz signalled the shaman with a quaal's feather token (bird) and had the shaman blip him to the tribe then they attacked first.
I gave the PCs bonus fate points and XP for getting there so fast and they had a blast fighting the Bullywugs, railroad or not... :)
Realized I never actually told how things went down those months ago. It ended up being an assault, as the PCs made it through the festival relatively unscathed (and amused at my descriptions of the heroes who stopped the Age of Worms; characters from the Age of Worms game most of my players and myself are in simultaneous to Savage Tide under another DM).
They made it to the manor, and found everyone safe. A few rushed conversations, then a quick tour of the manor, and it was decided the grate in the basement was the most likely route of attack. The Jade Ravens were set as lookouts above ground, and the PCs camped out in the basement for two days, until the attack came.
The rust monster scared the crap out of them, as they were feeling good picking off the horde of bullywugs through the grate. An entangle spell held the back reserves in place while they dealt with the first wave, and thanks to some good teamwork, they got past it with no losses, just a lot of bruises. Well, that and a high diplomacy check with a marilith earring. Drevoraz nearly killed one of them before he was negotiated with.
Ah, its been so long since those humble begginings. We open the curtain on Serpents of Scuttlecove tonight! Huzzah!
Drevoraz nearly killed one of them before he was negotiated with.
Heh, after the PCs saw poor Kora, no amount of diplomacy could have saved Drevoraz in my game. (I was building up to this and set her up as a really sweet lady who kept on taking them on shopping trips whenever they got extra gold.)
On of the PCs critical'ed him when he was running away at 1 hit point and removed his spleen with a rapier...
The same thing happened with my party and Drevoraz. Through some really great moments of roleplaying, the party got the marilith earring from Harliss. But when the halfling of the party saw Drevoraz shank Kora, he went into a rage, summoning swarms of dogs to attack the half orc. We use a third party book on halflings, which state that they are incrediably matriarchaly and very clannish. Since the halfling was so far from home, which was in the middle of the Amedio Jungle, Kora took pity on him and kind of adopted him. It helped that he is really sweet, if strange, and could cook like a mad fiend. The ranger rolled three 20's in a row to confirm a critical and removed Drevoraz's head from his body. The halfling then kicked it at the bullywug cleric.
After the battle, the ranger gave the earring to Lavinia as a gift, saying that a beautiful pirate gave it to him but Lavinia's beauty outshone the pirate's.
Heh, after the PCs saw poor Kora, no amount of diplomacy could have saved Drevoraz in my game. (I was building up to this and set her up as a really sweet lady who kept on taking them on shopping trips whenever they got extra gold.)
I have a feeling that's going to be the case with Drevoraz in my game. Even the CN character players can't stand to see prisoners exploited. (Wonder what their opinion of Harliss and the slaves will be...)
For a "siege"-type scenario, I recommend checking out Heroes of Battle. But since a siege drastically alters the last half of this adventure, I recommend keeping the few key encounters that help define this adventure at least somewhat intact. For simplicity, I would leave the Jade Ravens out of this scenario altogether.
Try to position Drevoraz and Bua Gorg (?) to capture Lavinia and Kora. Kora is really of no importance, so whether she is killed or not will have no major effect on the AP. Lavinia's capture, however, helps to give her that "damsel-in-distress" quality, which contrasts with her gradual change in demeanor later in the AP. Also, if the PCs managed to make Harliss helpful, it will give that marilith earring some use other than just more pirate booty.
It's a tough scenario, but hat's off it you get it to work.
Edit: Ah! YeuxAndI beat me to the punch on Kora and the earring!
Yeah, the characters had grown so fond of Kora, I was pretty sure offing her would have been a bit much at that point in the AP. They were still in that "nothing bad happens to good people" stage that they like to play their low-level characters in.
Sea Wyvern's Wake shook them up though, which worked fine.
And the sorceror still has Harliss's earring. He's been wearing it until he could give it back.
My PC's are on their way back to Sasserine from Kraken's Cove now, and I think I'm going to run it as a siege. It seems like more fun than just going from room to room killing bullywugs.
Here's the funny thing: The druid is going to cast Animal Messenger as they are leaving the cove and will give a bird a letter to Lavinia and the marilith earring. But I rolled up favorable weather for them (from Stormwrack) so their ship (they're using the Sea Wyvern undermanned) is going to get there before the animal messenger! They won't be able to stop Drevoraz when he arrives with the bullywugs. Hee hee!
I also thought it would be cool if Drevoraz and the bullywugs launch a first assault, and some bullywugs die. Then they get the earring and are able to convince Drevoraz there's been a mistake. But because some of the bullywugs have been killed the tribe won't call off the attack and Drevoraz ends up helping the PC's and Lavinia.
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>> Commonly known as railroading.
Oh, pooh. The whole "railroading" argument has been discussed many times, get over it. The DM rolled well on the weather table, we're not nerfing the PCs actions.
If you want to run a seige, go for it. Otherwise I'd take James' recommendation.
I'll get over it when hacks who think they can write a D&D adventure get over using railroading as a writing technique.
Reebo
I'll get over it when hacks who think they can write a D&D adventure get over using railroading as a writing technique.
Reebo
If railroading results in a climactic action sequence, I'd take it in a heartbeat. It's not like an adventure path isn't railroading by its very nature... after all, you've lost the story entirely if you let your players decide, "Hmmmm... you know, I really don't want to deal with the savage tide."
I'll get over it when hacks who think they can write a D&D adventure get over using railroading as a writing technique.
Reebo
Perhaps you shouldn't be the kind of "hack" that buys an adventure off the shelf, then. These adventures function as a time-saver. They are absolutely worthless to me if they don't reduce my preparation time, and that necessarily requires some level of railroading. An unfocused sandbox requires me to write the whole thing myself anyway, which does not help at all.
Dungeon could have included a siege option for the adventure. That would [u]guarantee[/u], however, that half the pages involved would be a waste of money for every single DM. Most players are tolerant of a small amount of subtle railroading. I'd rather have an occasional adventure that I have to modify a bit due to unexpected player actions than having to throw away the bulk of every adventure because they're trying to predict every possible player action.
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My players are perfectly aware that there are going to be times I'm going to railroad them a bit. I've made it clear that I'll try and accomodate their character goals as much as the published adventures allow, but running something prepublished means that there's less flexibility than if I was coming up with the adventure each week myself.
But if I were coming up with it myself, we'd be lucky to game every third week instead of weekly. It's a trade-off.
Ultimately, the point boils down to this: If the players are the main characters, and are having fun? Then it's all good. And for those who are confident enough in their ability to tweak the material and freeform it, there is -nothing- preventing you from running it the way you want like the Bard did.
I'm not back at that level of confidence (and time) myself. The only time I know players to object to railroading is when it makes no sense, or results in DMPCuberwins and/or Deus Ex Machina.
I usually make my own adventures and try to tailor them to the PCs. This is my first time running an adventure path, and I've informed the players that it will be a little more linear and less tailored to their personal goals than what they are used to. So far it has been going well.
I am in the same situation now with Bullywug gambit. The seacliff dwarf in our party managed to buy a pinnace that they sailed to Kraken's cove. The weather home wasn't so good, so as it turns out Drevoraz will have a 24 hour head start. I decided that the pirates had a small skiff stashed in another nearby cove. He trekked overland with a few other crew members to the skiff and they began sailing back to Sasserine. They had to stop off and negotiate with the Bullywugs, which slowed them down, but Bullywugs are an aquatic race with a good swim speed, so they can actually swim along beside the ship along the coast at least as fast as the ship could move. I figure this should give them enough time to beat the heroes back to Sasserine. However if Drevoraz is supposed to be trekking overland there would be no way he could be the party.
Despite Jame's comments earlier on the board I don't think this adventure leaves a lot of room to fool with the timeline. If the pearl is supposed to go off a few of hours before the party encounter Harliss (as is presumed in the script) it would not be possible for the first mate to have much of a head start. In my own game the party arrived at the cove at dusk. They scouted it out briefly in a row boat and saw the buring ships. They knew something was wrong, so they decided to investigate the Sea Wyvern. I put a couple of savage pirates on board the ship to give them a taste, and after that they decided to return to their ship for the night and rest. Thus it was the next day that they went back and explored the caves. At this point it didn't make much sense to still have Harliss locked in battle with a horde of savage pirates, so she basically came across them as she was on her way out after having rested the night (she managed to kill all the pirates she fought, but was a little worse for wear afterwards and holed up in her cave for the night).
I do feel like there are a few things that didn't quite make sense in this adventure. Like why wouldn't the dinosaur kill the Krenshars who are in the cave next door or the other pirates. He's tough enough that he should basically be the only thing still standing in the place other than Harliss. Anyhow I kind of let these issues slide, and it was still fun.
I think the next section should be fun!
>> Commonly known as railroading.
Oh, pooh. The whole "railroading" argument has been discussed many times, get over it. The DM rolled well on the weather table, we're not nerfing the PCs actions.
If you want to run a seige, go for it. Otherwise I'd take James' recommendation.
I'll get over it when hacks who think they can write a D&D adventure get over using railroading as a writing technique.
Reebo
Railroading is inevitable in published adventures, man. There's no way to write an adventure for this many people and have it be tailored to every group.
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Railroading is inevitable in published adventures, man. There's no way to write an adventure for this many people and have it be tailored to every group.
My whole point is if your going to create a situation where the PCs must "hurry back to stop the assassin" then it cheats them out of good play if not matter what they do the scenario is written as if he beats them to the target. In other words don't make up these crap scenarios if the result is the same regardless of what happens. If you can't fit the two results into the adventure due to space constraints don't create that sort of "race" situation in the adventure.
Reebo
>> My whole point is if your going to create a situation where the PCs must "hurry back to stop the assassin" then it cheats them out of good play if not matter what they do the scenario is written as if he beats them to the target
First off, the original post wasn't talking about "good play". The DM rolled on the weather table and got a good result. The players haven't been cheated out of anything.
Secondly, that's not railroading, that's providing the PCs with an adventure - exactly what the DM is supposed to do.
By your logic, the Shadowpearl should not automatically go off either. It's cheating the players out of the chance to stop it. And Vanthus shouldn't automatically get to Kraken Cove, it's cheating the players out of a chance to stop him. And Harliss should not have the Shadowpearl to begin with, it's cheating the players out of a chance to stop her. *ANY* adventure is railroading by your definition.
Unless your idea of a good adventure is rolling dice on random tables to see what happens, then the DM has to arbitrarily create some situations. Situations that you are mistakening refering to as railroading.
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Now, I think this post was probably a waste of time. You write with the fervor of a true believer, someone who discussing things with is futile. If you're going to reply, try to come up with something better than simple name-calling: "hacks", "crap", "railroading".
It seems like the only kind of published adventure that would have no railroading at all would be a static dungeon crawl where the monsters wait patiently for the heroes to show up and bash their brains in.
Oh well, some people are never happy. How anyone could call the adventures in STAP crap (oh god, I rhymed!) is beyond me...
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By your logic, the Shadowpearl should not automatically go off either. It's cheating the players out of the chance to stop it. And Vanthus shouldn't automatically get to Kraken Cove, it's cheating the players out of a chance to stop him. And Harliss should not have the Shadowpearl to begin with, it's cheating the players out of a chance to stop her. *ANY* adventure is railroading by your definition.
Reread my definition DMFTodd. If a 'mission' to stop something is given by an NPCs and NO matter what the PC do, no matter how cleverly they play, the result is that they automatically fail - then that's railroading pure and simple. If the PC are sent to slay a dragon and they may succeed or they may fail - then thats an adventure. BIG difference mate.
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Unless your idea of a good adventure is rolling dice on random tables to see what happens, then the DM has to arbitrarily create some situations. Situations that you are mistakening refering to as railroading.
I've already explained railroading so no, I'm not mistaken in referring to 'that' particular situation.
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Now, I think this post was probably a waste of time. You write with the fervor of a true believer, someone who discussing things with is futile. If you're going to reply, try to come up with something better than simple name-calling: "hacks", "crap", "railroading".
It is very clear that the people who get upset by these comments are those that rely on railroading to run their games, fine, go nuts, its your game.
It was all good until you told me to "get over it" mate. Maybe next time you'll be less of a true believer yourself.Reebo
I’m curious Reebo. Since you apparently think yourself such an authority on writing good adventures, how would you have written this adventure such that it doesn’t railroad the players, yet still fits the word limit that the authors had to work with and still advances the plot of the adventure path and is still enjoyable to play for the majority of the readers?
Seriously – have you ever tried to seriously write anything and get it published? I’ve managed to get a few technical papers published, and let me tell you something. Writing is difficult! Until you’ve tried to deal with a word count on your writing, you have no idea of what the STAP authors are up against. Cut them some slack. If you don’t like how they wrote the adventure, change it when you play it. But don’t call them hacks and their work crap until you’ve walked in their shoes.
I get so tired of hearing the word "railroading" get thrown around. All it really means these days is that someone doesn't think his character had the freedom to effect certain outcomes as much as he thinks he should have.
If you want to see some serious railroading, go check out some of the old 1st edition modules. Reebo probably would have found Gary Gygax to be the worst railroader ever.
Short adventures (and to clarify, most Dungeon adventures are short when compared to other stand-alone products) written to a broad audience have to focus on assumed actions that most PCs will take, and assumed outcomes resulting from them. There isn't the luxury of providing alternate outcomes and alternate ways of setting things up all the time (some times we can squeeze some sidebars in that accomplish this). As far as good DMs go, it's their jobs to improvise if things don't quite go the way the adventure assumes they will.
Does this make us writers "hacks" or our adventures "crap"? You be the judge.
Steve "the crappy hackmaster" Greer
I see most published adventures as set pieces that can be hacked apart by a competent DM to fit whatever he/she needs.
My current campaign is nothing but a bunch of unrelated Dungeon adventures that I strung together with a unifying theme. That unifying theme ran throughout all these adventures and provided continuity. I freely changed things along the way as needed, with minimal work.
If you don't like the way the adventures are set up, change the set up, or just steal the maps and encounters or ideas from the adventure.
I took the crappy hackmaster Steve's adventure in #121 and levelled it up and moved it underground about 1200 miles from its original location, I gave the NPC party a secondary role in my campaign and tied their motivation into the "unifying theme". I totally ditched the overswamp trip to get there and used my own intro. Took me like 20 minutes and a 3/4 page of notes to integrate it perfectly into my campaign.
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Wow. That's a lot of moving of an adventure.
I admit - I dislike the idea of the DM -forcing- his player's characters to take a particular path. But not because he's deciding where the adventure goes - it's because he's not cooperating with his players anymore. It's the fiat aspect that bothers me, not the 'the plot will go thus'. If the players trust the DM to provide a fun adventure and consent to a bit of linearity, then it's not a big deal.
It's also very important to realize the limitations of a published adventure in a magazine. They cannot provide every single option, and more importantly, to do so would hurt the flow of the adventure as it's written and intended to be played. You may have a hard time with that 'intended' bit. My players certainly don't - they gleefully follow my cues.
That said, with some of the wording of your comments, I don't imagine you'd be welcome at my table either, so that's just fine. I won't be able to railroad you.
I used to run a lot of Shadowrun adventures and one thing I liked about them was the brief debugging section for each major encounter. It would give good advice to dms about what to do if things went off the script, and it would help let the dm know which things were most intrinsic to seeing the story through to completion etc.. I would like to to see something like that in future published Paizo dnd adventures. These sections were never very long, but they were always useful.