I have a long time playing group, 15 years, we are mature players take our gamiing seriously, enjoy our sessions and dribble drabble with variant rules, but are very book based when it comes to playing.
Character death has always been a sore spot, discussions arise which always ponder the same questions; why do you lose a level upon death?, does it make sense that a newly raised character loses the feats and skills he had gained only a few sessions ago?, and the like.
We have not yet implented it, but we scratched our heads and came up with Debt Experience Points. I want to hear your sagely advice and please imput your two cents, wanting to solidify and facilitate this aspect of our sessions and your comments are welcomed and sought.
Thank you
Debt Experience Points
When a character dies and is raised by whatever means, the character will return at his current level without any harmful effects, however, the touch of death does not leave the character unaffected, instead he has accrued debt experience points. Debt experience points occur each time a character dies, so it is possible to accrue multiple increments of debt experience points.
The character continues to gain experience points as usual, but debt experience points consume earned experience points until all debt experience points are paid; the character will then earn experience as normal.
Debt experience points are determined as follows:
Character HD
(1-4) 250 Debt experience points per level
(5-8) 500 Debt experience points per level
(9-12) 750 Debt experience points per level
(13-16) 1,000 Debt experience points per level
(16-20) 1,250 Debt experience points per level
(21+) 1,500 Debt experience points per level
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Debt Experience Points
When a character dies and is raised by whatever means, the character will return at his current level without any harmful effects, however, the touch of death does not leave the character unaffected, instead he has accrued debt experience points. Debt experience points occur each time a character dies, so it is possible to accrue multiple increments of debt experience points.
The character continues to gain experience points as usual, but debt experience points consume earned experience points until all debt experience points are paid; the character will then earn experience as normal.
Debt experience points are determined as follows:
Character HD
(1-4) 250 Debt experience points per level
(5-8) 500 Debt experience points per level
(9-12) 750 Debt experience points per level
(13-16) 1,000 Debt experience points per level
(16-20) 1,250 Debt experience points per level
(21+) 1,500 Debt experience points per level
We, too, have struggled with the loss of experience and resurrection spells. Overall I like what you have written here. The only thing that I would suggest changing is having a little more consistent formula rather than a table. HD x 100 xp gets you pretty close to what you have above and is varied enough for any class level. (Although the raise dead and resurrection spells are a little closer to HD x 500 xp)
Again, I like what you have written. Thanks for sharing the ideas.
Thanks Moff,
I too am struggling with the table aspect (as if I don't have enough to keep track of), the Debt Experience Point (DXP) is designed to hinder progress, and allow characters to remain level current, we want to convey a sense of dread because of the character death and some sting involved.
In order to make it hurtful a standard DXP is a good idea, I'm toying with 500 DXP per level too.
Thanks for your input!
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Easy. The only thing you lose upon resurrection is a Constitution point-well, sort of. Here is how it works...if, for example, your starting profile has 10 con points, then that is the most times that one can be resurrected, and no magic or anything else can change that. Therefore, if you have 10 con points, you get ten resurrections, and nothing can change that, ever!
So to clarify: if you have 10 con starting points and you have magically enhanced your constitition over time, you still get only 10 resurrections. If you want to add a taint of evil to your campaign, then subtract one con point per resurrection as well. Of course, many advanced characters would have to keep track of both sets of con points-the original, and the magically enhanced. In the end though-no matter how high they magically enhance their con--they still are only allowed resurrections equivalent to their original con stat. This also encourages wizards and the like, to not brush off the importance of constitution over-lets say-their intelligence or charisma. I hope i am being clear. Been a long, long day.
Thoth-Amon
Thanks.
Not exactly the area (maximum death allowed), I was concerned with, but your comments are appreciated.
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I generally like your system. One thing to keep in mind is that when you lose a level, you get more xp from encounters. Now granted, you also are more challenged because you are down a level. You might want to consider whether you want this system to require more or less xp than the core rules and adjust the amounts accordingly keeping that effect in mind.
I like this concept a lot. It's also much easier to keep track of, rather than trying to figure out everything you did last level and then working backwards to undo it. Very nice!
Or you could just run a campaign via Ghostwalk where anyone raised within the Manifest Ward (and namely in the city of Manifest) doesn't lose a con point or a level, it merely costs- and costs LESS than normal.
heh, I know it doesn't solve your problem, but I thought it'd be a reasonable suggestion...include a manifest of your own and reduce the cost of ressurection, ghostwalk was intended to fit into any campaign world...how well that works is up to you, just transplanting the city of manifest and the manifest ward is easy, the rest of the area is a little harder.
Still, you could implement a rule that does something similar- assuming certain prerequisites are met...
but for the most part, I like your idea. the shock of death and coming back should be something one should struggle to get over, but since one is being magically ressurected, perhaps they shouldn't suffer extreme penalties, and a level for instance is a little weird since the ressurected person still has all the memories of their previous existence, but maybe a weakened constitution?
Staying with the concept of a formula in lieu of a table, how about:
Character Level x 5 x 500 DXP?
I like those result numbers best.
I like the idea but not your table.
a 1st lvl character would need 2500 xp just to get back to par
an 8th lvl would need 20,000. Seems awful steep.
Why not just debt xp equal to the xp you need to advance from that lvl. As in Character lvl x 1000?
CL x 750, actually does seem to work best.
A first level character needs an additional 750 xp to get back to snuff, 7500 for a 10th level and 15,000 for 20th. Those are good DXP penalty numbers.
Director of Narrative
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I like the thought and work you put into your system. Character death has always been a rough subject. Here lately I want to do away with Resurrection altogether, but that's another thread.
My one question is if it is that important to the player to be the same level of everyone else and the party needs that character's level that badly why not just pony up and go for the True Resurrection? I know it's a 9th lvl spell and finding someone who can cast it will be tough, but you _are_ bringing someone back to life with no repercussions.
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Here's what our group uses for xp debts and negative levels:
- When a character dies, the replacement character must be a level lower than the current character, to a maximum of two levels below the highest level character.
- Characters who die take a negative level (-1 to hit, skill checks, saving throws, -5 hp, and -1 of highest spell slot) and owe a debt of 25% of their current xp. When the debt is paid, the negative level goes away.
(keep in mind we're using the Unearthed Arcana variant xp system, so 25% of their current xp probably works out to the equivalent of 750 xp per character level)
Remarkable consistency of opinion developed through play on this topic.
Generally speaking, my personal preference is to leave the PC dead (unless I'm looking at being reincarnated as a wolverine perhaps ...) and roll up a replacement Nameless character.
However, in game mechanical terms, a full level loss is harsh, picking up a negative level until you pay those xp off (which the negative level makes it much harder to get those xp - unless you can rake in the xp washing dishes or laundry or something) is even worse imo and - in general - negative levels aren't much better than the old school energy drains, which have always struck me as lame. Smacks of " level control " to me, but that's probably a topic for another thread ...
From the sounds of it, I could certainly see the CL x 750xp debt thing (without the neg lvl) being very workable. Getting a true rez is hideously costly (1730 gp for a 17th level cleric to fire one off plus surcharges and bribes ...er, " donations ") as well. And that assumes you actually paw through every major city in the Empire to find that one cleric of that level - whom you then need to get along with well enough to avoid a TPK of the party ... hope the survivors have good Diplomacy skills when dealing with that NPC ...
From a meta-game standpoint, this suggested system, no matter which way you slice it, simply back loads character level descrepencies instead of front loading under the RAW. It doesn't change the fact that if one character dies 3 times, another dies twice, and one never dies up to 10th level, you'll still have characters that are 7, 8, and 10 respectively. Think about it, if you are behind in levels, why would you want to be gaining experience at the same rate as your comrades and having to throw it on these extra XP points at the same level? You would earn them back faster at a lower level!
I know people do this kind of thing just for fun, but you'd better be sure that you aren't actually screwing the players who's characters die under this system.
If you want to reduce the penalty for death, just tweak how much XP is lost and the PCs will get back to the target level sooner.
As ever,
ACE
In the event of that elusive True Resurrection spell being found and cast, I would of course determine that any and all DXP are divinely wiped away.
I prefer to use a houserule invented by Andy Collins (I believe). When you die and are raised by anything that normally causes you to lose a level, you instead gain a negative level. This level cannot be removed by any normal means.
When you gain enough XP to gain a level, you lose one negative level suffered from death in addition to gaining a new level.
This mechanic makes death a bad thing (and repeat offenses will suck, badly), but not too bad.
Thanks for all the suggestions, I am gravitating to the 750 per level DXP for my own campaign. In my own home brewed campaign the are some well known clerical orders that have access to spells as True Resurrection, high level characters can acquire these spells whether by deed, promise or outright purchase.
For those lower level characters, I am of the inclination that the creation of DXP will be much easier to deal with, so it takes them a tad longer to progress, but who hasn't run a campaign where one or two characters have perished. As DM, you make allowances for that situation, I usually try to put the characters against challenging atagonists, so if I have to lower a villain class level here or there, so be it.
From a player view, I can see players in general enjoy being raised and not having to go through the ordeal of remembering (or forgetting) what he could do at the previous level and game play will not be slowed by a reverse in level transition.
As this has been a "player/DM" inspired roundabout, I think our group will find it feasibly sound. I plan to implement it as a house variant rule by next gaming day (Saturday), not that I am anticipating any immediate character deaths, but in the event one (or more does occur) we shall see how it goes.
Enjoyed this discussion, and your imput has been much appreciated.
Here's a different idea try using a 10% XP penalty, if that drops a character's CL so be it, if not it only sets them back in gaining the next level. I have actually played under this system and it works pretty good. The DM in question also outlawed True Resurrects.
Antioch's reference is to Andy Collin's article: The High Cost of Dying.
I collected several ideas and compiled them in Death and Hit Points on my blog.
Character death has always been a sore spot, discussions arise which always ponder the same questions; why do you lose a level upon death?, does it make sense that a newly raised character loses the feats and skills he had gained only a few sessions ago?, and the like.
Call it traumatic amnesia. :)
Shell-shocked dementia? Rebirth regression?
I said 750 dxp previous, but changed it to 500 dxp, works much better.
I am interested in your ideas on this topic. We are using the RAW for now, but one character got really screwed. He was just within reach of making 8th level, died, was raised and is now 6th, working his way back to 7th. Other party members are now 8th. Sure he will catch up but if this happens at higher levels, the disparity may get worse.
So, it seems a new "death penalty" is in order. Having read the posts above, I'm favoring Corean's suggestion of a 10% penalty. If you drop a level, you drop a level. But there is a good chance you won't if you were real close, as our poor barbarian in our campiagn. This is what's used in Diablo II and it seems to work OK. Alternatively, you could have the character incur a 10% debt to be worked off, but no points lost.
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I prefer to use a houserule invented by Andy Collins (I believe). When you die and are raised by anything that normally causes you to lose a level, you instead gain a negative level. This level cannot be removed by any normal means.
When you gain enough XP to gain a level, you lose one negative level suffered from death in addition to gaining a new level.This mechanic makes death a bad thing (and repeat offenses will suck, badly), but not too bad.
That's actually what I'm quoting - I use Andy's house rule, modified to have a fixed xp debt (rather than what AC uses, which is go back to midpoint of your previous level).
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I really like the concept of this idea. Just to make sure I have this right, when you die, you owe your experience level x 500 before you can adavance a level correct? Help me out here I am a wee bit thick. So a 5th level character dies and he owes 2500 xp before he can advance? I think I like the 750 better.
The 750 really hurts. The characters in my current group are 14th level; ordinarily they would need 15,000 XP to go from 14th to 15th level. With the DXP penalty, a character that died at 14th and is “raised” retains all his normal 14th level abilities, but be "Death Affected" and must accumulate 22,000 XP (15,000 XP normal plus the 7,000 DXP penalty) so approximately half more XP before he can ascend to 15th level.
With 750 DXP the number is 25,500 XP to attain next level (15,000 + 10,500 DXP). A higher number, but surely you could argue that it is better than going through the ordeal of "losing" a level and having game play come to a stand still will you figure out what the character can now do or can no longer perform.
I reviewed the article sent to me (The High Cost of Dying, see previous posts) and I am in agreement with the sentiment of the article, but again their is the inherent cost of determining the loss of a spell level, and incurring more math (-1 to attack, skills, saves) and the question of, "Oh, by the way did you just get the feat last level? Umm, I guess you can't do that anymore.”
We have determined that the DXP is liken to having one stepped on your grave, a lingering coldness that is soul felt and not easily shrugged off, each time you die the cost is measured somewhere and one day the Ferry Man will come to collect his ultimate due.